Problem with eyepiece projection

[BS269]

Hi all

My eyepiece projection equipment came today so have tried setting it up in the daytime to get it all working in preparation for the next clear night. I’m using a Meade 114mm reflector telescope with a baader Hyperion zoom and a Olympus EPM1. I’ve looked through the telescope with just the eyepiece and all seems to be fine, but when I connect the camera to it the live view screen just goes black. I tried taking a picture and again, it’s just black. The zoom eyepiece has a M43 thread so this is my set up - 

telescope - eyepiece - M43/T2 adapter - 15mm extension tube - micro 4/3 T-ring - camera

I’ve read that a Micro 4/3 camera needs a 15mm extension tube, I’ve tried following the picture for eyepiece projection on the baader Hyperion website so I’m guessing it’s a camera issue. Could anyone help me figure out what’s wrong? The camera settings required or if I’m missing anything. I’ve attached a picture of my set up too for visual help and the picture
 

thanks! 
Ben 

[sploo]

If you're getting a completely black image on the camera's liveview (regardless of exposure settings) even when the scope is pointed at a daylight sky then could you see what happens if you just connect the micro 4/3 T-ring to the camera (without any other parts)?

It's possible that the camera's mount is trying to talk to the T-ring (as if it were a lens attached), and getting confused because it's not getting a response.

I don't know what camera you're using there, but if you put just a teleconverter on a Canon DSLR camera then sometimes it's necessary to cover the pins, as otherwise the camera complains (because it's expecting to talk to a teleconverter + lens combo).

[Oldfort]

Some Canon ILCs have a setting to enable/disable taking a picture without a lens attached, and your set up would constitute "no lens attached".  I don't know about other brands.

[johnturley]

Sometimes you need to increase the manual exposure time to see an image on the live view screen, then after focusing reducing it the appropriate setting.

John 

[Alien 13]

I would tend to agree with others that you first need to make sure the "shoot without lens" option is enabled in the camera menu.

I do find the setup you are using a little strange through with the total length of the adapters etc in use, in general when using eyepiece projection the camera sensor needs to be at the same point as it would be visually with your eyeball. 

Alan

[BS269]

31 minutes ago, sploo said:

If you're getting a completely black image on the camera's liveview (regardless of exposure settings) even when the scope is pointed at a daylight sky then could you see what happens if you just connect the micro 4/3 T-ring to the camera (without any other parts)?

It's possible that the camera's mount is trying to talk to the T-ring (as if it were a lens attached), and getting confused because it's not getting a response.

I don't know what camera you're using there, but if you put just a teleconverter on a Canon DSLR camera then sometimes it's necessary to cover the pins, as otherwise the camera complains (because it's expecting to talk to a teleconverter + lens combo).

I was wondering if it would have something to do with the sensor not answering properly to the set up. I will look to see if the camera has a setting that doesn’t require a connection with a proper lens. Should all cameras have this setting? 

[BS269]

18 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

I would tend to agree with others that you first need to make sure the "shoot without lens" option is enabled in the camera menu.

I do find the setup you are using a little strange through with the total length of the adapters etc in use, in general when using eyepiece projection the camera sensor needs to be at the same point as it would be visually with your eyeball. 

Alan

Now you mention that I suppose that does make sense about it not being straight up to the eyepiece. The extension tube was apparently necessary to get rid of the blur around the edge of the field of view, but my T-ring is longer than the one on the baader website as i couldn’t find a shorter one for micro 4/3. I could try removing the extension tube to see if that helps. It talks about a 55mm back focal distance required, not including the extension tube (you can see it stated on the picture) but I don’t really understand it as I’m new to all this. 
 

cheers

Ben

[sploo]

4 hours ago, BS269 said:

I was wondering if it would have something to do with the sensor not answering properly to the set up. I will look to see if the camera has a setting that doesn’t require a connection with a proper lens. Should all cameras have this setting? 

I don't know; what camera are you using? All my recent experience (as in - the last decade) has been with Canon DSLRs so I'm not too familiar with other systems.

If you can set the camera to manual exposure mode, say ISO 100 and 1/50th, then without a lens attached it should react (i.e. show some brightness) on the LCD screen when pointed at a light source. The same should happen if you then connect the T-ring. If that's OK then check you can release the shutter (i.e. take a shot) - it'll just be a blur of light, but proves the camera will fire with the T-ring on.

[BS269]

16 hours ago, sploo said:

I don't know; what camera are you using? All my recent experience (as in - the last decade) has been with Canon DSLRs so I'm not too familiar with other systems.

If you can set the camera to manual exposure mode, say ISO 100 and 1/50th, then without a lens attached it should react (i.e. show some brightness) on the LCD screen when pointed at a light source. The same should happen if you then connect the T-ring. If that's OK then check you can release the shutter (i.e. take a shot) - it'll just be a blur of light, but proves the camera will fire with the T-ring on.

I’m using an Olympus EPM1, it’s a mirrorless micro four thirds camera. The LCD screen does show a blur of light when there is no lens or T-ring attached, it was just black when set up with the telescope and the only light coming through was from the eyepiece. I haven’t tried just the T-ring but I will when these storms settle down (most of the equipment is outside in a shed and would rather not get caught in this rain..). 

[GraemeC]

The back focus isn't critical for eyepiece projection, as the focus point also depends on the eyepiece position in the focusser. If you Imagine the camera sensor as a fixed piece of card, you can focus an image onto that card by racking the eyepiece in and out. Then obviously the distance from the eyepiece to the card can be anything you like.  If I project an image of the sun onto a piece of card I can have the card close to the scope, or on the other side of the room.  I just adjust the focusser to suit.  In my experience with eyepiece projection with a dslr, I just fix on a convenient distance fixed by the adapter and then rack the eyepiece in and out until focus is seen.

I have had black screens in live view before and it was due to a combination of live view settings and exposure time.  Try focussing on a distant tree top in daylight first...

[Cornelius Varley]

On 17/06/2020 at 15:36, BS269 said:

I’m using an Olympus EPM1, it’s a mirrorless micro four thirds camera. The LCD screen does show a blur of light when there is no lens or T-ring attached, it was just black when set up with the telescope and the only light coming through was from the eyepiece. I haven’t tried just the T-ring but I will when these storms settle down (most of the equipment is outside in a shed and would rather not get caught in this rain..). 

Assuming that the camera is set to shoot without a lens you can do some calculations to work out the effective focal ratio of the imaging setup. This link takes you to a calculated example for eyepiece projection.  Another online calculator here