Camera choice ...

[knobby]

Just after some opinions on ZWO vs QHY etc.

I'm looking at (For a SW ED72 / 0.8 reducer) a 183C or 294C chipped camera, the 183C seems ok in most brands but the 294 seems to have uneven cooling issues bar the QHY version, which is ironically the cheapest.

Any opinions greatfully received before I put my cash down ?

Thanks

[vlaiv]

Only thing I can say about the two dates couple of years back and is related to very small sensor guide camera. Not sure if it's relevant today, but at the time I felt that QHY offering was a bit lacking in driver department.

Drivers were a bit buggy and apps did crash sometimes due to this. Otherwise, I would say that quality of the products was on par. Mind you, we are talking about basic guide cam models without cooling and with small sensor (Aptina MT9M034).

[knobby]

Cheers Vlaiv, I've heard the same about QHY drivers, I'll be using Astro photography tool so maybe not quite such an issue hopefully.

I noticed @Thalestris24 just got a QHY183 and had fun and games with the driver too !

[Thalestris24]

10 minutes ago, knobby said:

Cheers Vlaiv, I've heard the same about QHY drivers, I'll be using Astro photography tool so maybe not quite such an issue hopefully.

I noticed @Thalestris24 just got a QHY183 and had fun and games with the driver too !

Hi Knobby

Yeah but it was only a problem with the native driver and SharpCap. I'm not sure whether it was SharpCap's or qhy's fault! Normally, you'd use the Ascom driver which was fine anyway (worked with APT ok). I'm quite liking the mono 183 though haven't had another imaging opportunity since. Weather is rubbish up here...

Louise

[knobby]

Same in Essex ?, old camera is now sold so need to get my thinking head on sharpish. Leaning towards a ZWO 183C cool ... Or a QHY294 ... eeerm

[Adam J]

On 03/04/2019 at 21:30, knobby said:

Same in Essex ?, old camera is now sold so need to get my thinking head on sharpish. Leaning towards a ZWO 183C cool ... Or a QHY294 ... eeerm

Get the QHY168c  better than both of those if you can afford it. I know of the calibration / cooling issue with the ASI294mc pro but have not see evidence that QHY have fixed this?

Ill be honest about the 183c, I don't feel that those tiny pixels are well suited to high performance once you place a RGB matrix in front of them, although the camera seems to perform well in mono guise, so despite its cooling issues I would go with a 294 based camera over the 183c every time. 

Adam

[knobby]

QHY168C ... now you've thrown me ! that's the 071 sensor ? big jump in money ?

[Adam J]

21 minutes ago, knobby said:

QHY168C ... now you've thrown me ! that's the 071 sensor ? big jump in money ?

Yes but less of a jump than if you actually got the ASI071mc pro as the QHY version is cheaper and arguably still more reliable. 

I notice you already have a IMX183c based camera, that chip has low dark current to begin with so while cooling will help don't expect a quantum leap in performance from the addition of cooling.  

[knobby]

I had a dabble with DIY cooling , sold it now but want set point as a result of my dabbling ?

[alan potts]

Oh dear Knobby, reading all these issues with one thing and another I wonder if I should consider an Atik model, which is sort of what I was going to buy this time last year. They are just somewhat more costly, almost double in fact.

In my case there are still things like guding to nail, I have had so many set-backs, mostly not me, I even had a faulty new camera where the cable didn't connect properly, so only half the signal was getting to the computer, that wasted 2 weeks. I also have a hard time understanding programs like EQmod and platesolving, yes I am sure some find it easy but not me.

I will follow your voyage with interest.

Alan

[cabfl]

Or wait the new cameras:

QHY268C - APSC - 16bits, 3.76um, 26mpx

https://www.qhyccd.com/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=show&catid=94&id=56&cut=1

[Adam J]

6 hours ago, alan potts said:

Oh dear Knobby, reading all these issues with one thing and another I wonder if I should consider an Atik model, which is sort of what I was going to buy this time last year. They are just somewhat more costly, almost double in fact.

In my case there are still things like guding to nail, I have had so many set-backs, mostly not me, I even had a faulty new camera where the cable didn't connect properly, so only half the signal was getting to the computer, that wasted 2 weeks. I also have a hard time understanding programs like EQmod and platesolving, yes I am sure some find it easy but not me.

I will follow your voyage with interest.

Alan

Atik dont sell any of the sensors you listed. Your best option for an OSC with Atik would be the Horizon OSC. But in my opinion for an OSC the IMX071 based sensors are better.

[alan potts]

46 minutes ago, Adam J said:

Atik dont sell any of the sensors you listed. Your best option for an OSC with Atik would be the Horizon OSC. But in my opinion for an OSC the IMX071 based sensors are better.

Thank's Adam, I realised they didn't but wondered whether to go with a CCD instead, I generally like to buy decent quality gear and always felt Atik was a step up. I hear what you say though and the asi071 camera was probably the one I was going to get first. It was just that if I went Atik it would cost a good deal more for a sizeable chip. Plan was to have 071 and maybe a 183 for the camera lenses (Canon L's 300 and 500mm) I own and 70mm scopes, all of which can be used on the mount. Mount btw is something else I was considering strongly to upgrade to maybe the Ioptron 120 or EQ8, both will then take my Meade 12 inch with ease. All the mounting rails and reducers I already have

Thanks for all your input you clearly know plenty about cameras

Alan

[Adam J]

34 minutes ago, alan potts said:

Thank's Adam, I realised they didn't but wondered whether to go with a CCD instead, I generally like to buy decent quality gear and always felt Atik was a step up. I hear what you say though and the asi071 camera was probably the one I was going to get first. It was just that if I went Atik it would cost a good deal more for a sizeable chip. Plan was to have 071 and maybe a 183 for the camera lenses (Canon L's 300 and 500mm) I own and 70mm scopes, all of which can be used on the mount. Mount btw is something else I was considering strongly to upgrade to maybe the Ioptron 120 or EQ8, both will then take my Meade 12 inch with ease. All the mounting rails and reducers I already have

Thanks for all your input you clearly know plenty about cameras

Alan

Personally I would not get a osc CCD camera they just don't hold their price on the second hand market and I feel CMOS works better in light pollution with the short exposure low read noise. I would get the horizon not as good as the IMX071 but if you want Atik it's better then their osc CCD options. Also can work well across your focal lengths. 

[alan potts]

35 minutes ago, Adam J said:

Personally I would not get a osc CCD camera they just don't hold their price on the second hand market and I feel CMOS works better in light pollution with the short exposure low read noise. I would get the horizon not as good as the IMX071 but if you want Atik it's better then their osc CCD options. Also can work well across your focal lengths. 

Feel you are begining to talk me into the 071. I have very good sky here many times better than alot of people have to put up, most decent nights when up I can see M33. Really need to nail this guiding which so far I have not had much luck with, I will try next week when the SW 50mm ED scope comes, must be due a change of luck. I appreciate the comment on S/H values but selling anything from here is always a difficulty with my location and there is little or no local market. I tend to keep most things these days.

Alan.

 

[knobby]

I'm now thinking of maybe going mono !

https://www.365astronomy.com/zwo-asi1600mm-pro-cooled-deep-sky-imaging-camera-with-efwmini-and-1.25-rgbl-filter-set-bundle.html

Big jump in budget ?

Maybe the small filters will vignette though ?

[Thalestris24]

2 hours ago, alan potts said:

 Really need to nail this guiding which so far I have not had much luck with, I will try next week when the SW 50mm ED scope comes, must be due a change of luck.

Alan.

 

What guiding problems are you having, Alan? Maybe we (me and the members  ) can help?

Louise

[Adam J]

1 hour ago, knobby said:

I'm now thinking of maybe going mono !

https://www.365astronomy.com/zwo-asi1600mm-pro-cooled-deep-sky-imaging-camera-with-efwmini-and-1.25-rgbl-filter-set-bundle.html

Big jump in budget ?

Maybe the small filters will vignette though ?

They will only vignette badly if you are imaging down at f4 or less.

[knobby]

7 minutes ago, Adam J said:

They will only vignette badly if you are imaging down at f4 or less.

Cheers Adam, the 31 mm is only slightly dearer . I'm at f 4.9 ish.

Better start reading up on LRGB processing ... 

[Adam J]

Just now, knobby said:

Cheers Adam, the 31 mm is only slightly dearer . I'm at f 4.9 ish.

Better start reading up on LRGB processing ... 

Personally I would not get the zwo unmounted filters, they suffered from edge reflections. Get Baader filters, even more so in narrow band you will thank yourself in the future.

[knobby]

And the cost goes even higher ?

[alan potts]

12 hours ago, Thalestris24 said:

What guiding problems are you having, Alan? Maybe we (me and the members  ) can help?

Louise

So kind of you Louise, I have had a good deal of help from fellow Mods, however I have not been able to carry this out due to a problem with my prostate. This is not life threatening but I was urged to keep away from sitting in the cold for hours on end over the winter (not sure this actully caused the problem but followed advice). In any case weather was very poor this winter for clear skies.

First issues were my fault in the shape of trying to guide with the scope covered up, somewhat annoying but I guess many have done similar, did much the same with my 13mm Ethos using the 2 inch fitting and leaving the smaller cap on, in truth I've done that a few times.

Then I was trying to use a Mammut Brightstar camera to guide, now I bought this in England when I was over in 2013 and never used it, I specifically asked if it had a guide cable ST4, and was told yes, in fact it has a cable but not the correct one, it was a 4 connection type cable the like of which looks like a phone cable and the same size, this of course was not obvious to me a pure beginner. So I wasted a lot of time trying to get this to work and a good few clear nights.

Then I decided to buy a new camera sort of believing the Mammut was not really up to the task even though a few on site had told they made very good guide cameras, in any case I couldn't source a ST4 here and my IT mate was not able to make one due to the fitting size. So I bought a new camera a Loadstar and was sure this would answer my prays. This sadly was faulty and again cable and connector related, but part of it worked. It did some of the finding a guide star and pre-guide setup but when it worked on the Dec, just stopped. Again a few nights went down the drain as I was trying to get to the bottom of this issue.

That sort of brings me round to now, even though I bought a new Zwo ASI 290mini for guiding a good while ago now. I have not tried this out firstly because of summer, now that may well sound odd, the mosquitoes here consider me to be food prepare from the finest ingredients by Gordon Ramsay and flock to the restautant to see I'm on the menu, then there was winter with very poor weather for here and too cold for my problem.

I also add to this that I was using a Baader Vario scope to guide, even with the right fittings to connect to a total waste of money for what it is, and it was not cheap either, this has propmted me to buy the SW ED 50mm guider from FLO which arrives next week, again I have high hopes and I intend to use it with PHD at first anyway.

Now I have all the cables and decent quality ones from Lynx to try to use EQmod and other programs, my problems here are mainly understanding the programs, being thick in the IT department this takes a fair time to sink in. Once I have things in my head though I am normally fine.

Rest assumed if I get any problems I will try to get them sorted using the likes of yourself and others but one main issue is when ever I asked before, one kind person asked me to post a copy of the log, I have only ever posted a letter and don't have a clue how to post or link anything on here, I'm a real basket case.

Cheers and hope you get some decent skies soon up there In Glasgow, a lovely City I have fond memories of.

Alan   

[alan potts]

Knobby, please accept my apologies I thought all these posts directed at me were on the thread I started, I am sorry I never looked beyond the end of my nose, it appears we were asking very similar questions and I got rateher mixed up. Will be nice to see what you buy though, AP never seems easy to me even spending hits a wall of questions.

Alan

[knobby]

1 hour ago, alan potts said:

Knobby, please accept my apologies I thought all these posts directed at me were on the thread I started, I am sorry I never looked beyond the end of my nose, it appears we were asking very similar questions and I got rateher mixed up. Will be nice to see what you buy though, AP never seems easy to me even spending hits a wall of questions.

Alan

No worries Alan, all of your replies mention cameras ?. Stick with the guiding though, I played around for ages getting it working. Some of the connection settings can be tested indoors through a window in the warm .

[Thalestris24]

4 hours ago, alan potts said:

So kind of you Louise, I have had a good deal of help from fellow Mods, however I have not been able to carry this out due to a problem with my prostate. This is not life threatening but I was urged to keep away from sitting in the cold for hours on end over the winter (not sure this actully caused the problem but followed advice). In any case weather was very poor this winter for clear skies.

First issues were my fault in the shape of trying to guide with the scope covered up, somewhat annoying but I guess many have done similar, did much the same with my 13mm Ethos using the 2 inch fitting and leaving the smaller cap on, in truth I've done that a few times.

Then I was trying to use a Mammut Brightstar camera to guide, now I bought this in England when I was over in 2013 and never used it, I specifically asked if it had a guide cable ST4, and was told yes, in fact it has a cable but not the correct one, it was a 4 connection type cable the like of which looks like a phone cable and the same size, this of course was not obvious to me a pure beginner. So I wasted a lot of time trying to get this to work and a good few clear nights.

Then I decided to buy a new camera sort of believing the Mammut was not really up to the task even though a few on site had told they made very good guide cameras, in any case I couldn't source a ST4 here and my IT mate was not able to make one due to the fitting size. So I bought a new camera a Loadstar and was sure this would answer my prays. This sadly was faulty and again cable and connector related, but part of it worked. It did some of the finding a guide star and pre-guide setup but when it worked on the Dec, just stopped. Again a few nights went down the drain as I was trying to get to the bottom of this issue.

That sort of brings me round to now, even though I bought a new Zwo ASI 290mini for guiding a good while ago now. I have not tried this out firstly because of summer, now that may well sound odd, the mosquitoes here consider me to be food prepare from the finest ingredients by Gordon Ramsay and flock to the restautant to see I'm on the menu, then there was winter with very poor weather for here and too cold for my problem.

I also add to this that I was using a Baader Vario scope to guide, even with the right fittings to connect to a total waste of money for what it is, and it was not cheap either, this has propmted me to buy the SW ED 50mm guider from FLO which arrives next week, again I have high hopes and I intend to use it with PHD at first anyway.

Now I have all the cables and decent quality ones from Lynx to try to use EQmod and other programs, my problems here are mainly understanding the programs, being thick in the IT department this takes a fair time to sink in. Once I have things in my head though I am normally fine.

Rest assumed if I get any problems I will try to get them sorted using the likes of yourself and others but one main issue is when ever I asked before, one kind person asked me to post a copy of the log, I have only ever posted a letter and don't have a clue how to post or link anything on here, I'm a real basket case.

Cheers and hope you get some decent skies soon up there In Glasgow, a lovely City I have fond memories of.

Alan   

Hi Alan

Sorry for all your woes. I hope things improve.
I don't know what mount you have or scope you're wanting to guide? ST4 connections are an industry standard, afaik. Here is a pic of a ST4 cable, they are 6-pin connectors:

 

They are a bit like telephone cables

However, you have to be careful of guide camera settings for certain guide cameras and if you're using PHD2, you have to recalibrate each time you point at different areas of the sky. Also, unless you have absolutely no choice, pulse guiding is better than ST4 guiding. I think the Mammut camera should work ok. Likewise, the Baader scope should be fine for guiding with, if it's a straight through type? Getting an ed50 sounds a bit overkill - I still use a SW 50mm finder on one of my mounts - with an adapter to fit a camera, works great! Lodestars are legendary... I think the key to successful guiding is in understanding what you're doing with both the hardware and software and the procedures you follow. It sounds like you'd really benefit from some hands-on help. Maybe you can find a local club or enthusiast? Anyway, I won't hijack this thread but you can always post anew if you need advice. Do include details and pictures too!
Louise