Linux for a Dummy

[Alien 13]

I have always said that I would rather stick hot needles in my eyes than try Linux again but I might be tempted to try it one more time.

The problem as I see it is that I want my Win 10 unaffected and dont want to run a virtual machine (whatever that is) or mess with partitions etc, I do have two hard drives in my laptop so might consider installing it on the normal disk as a last resort provided I could delete it easily if required. The best option for me would be to install everything Linux related including drivers etc on a USB stick and run from that but dont know if that can be done.

I have had a look at some vids and think I need some Mint and possibly Wine also but have some questions whether its even worth trying or would work on my machine.

1. My laptop is USB 3 only with an additional thunderbolt port, are these supported?

2. Will Linux have working drivers for high end graphics cards like the GTX 970M?

3. Linux drivers for the soundblaster sound card?

4. Support or drivers for Keyboard FX themes?

5. Can Linux break my machine if it goes wrong?

The big question though is how do I do this installation if it is suitable?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or info.

Alan

[The Admiral]

I'm a bit in your camp Alan, but deep down I know that I shall not move on to W10 when all other options are exhausted, and I'll want to get cosy with Linux.

I had a quick play with Mint a while back, and I do know that Linux can run directly from a cd or memory stick without affecting your pc. A bit slow of course but at least you can begin to get familiar with it. I think there is a version of Ubuntu which can load itself into your machine alongside Windows. One of the problems I can foresee is that new systems can be designed to only be able to run a Windows architecture, I believe, so some means of knowing in advance if it'll run Linux would be useful. From what little I've read, Chromebooks are more likely to be OK as their OS is based on Linux. I've wondered if I should get a cheap Chromebook and start to get familiar with the elephant in the room!

Ian

[SilverAstro]

2 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

I might be tempted to try it one more time.

USB stick and run from that but dont know if that can be done.

and think I need some Mint

 thunderbolt port,

5. Can Linux break my machine if it goes wrong?

The big question though is how do I do this installation if it is suitable?

Oh gosh, tempted ? ! I was going to suggest Mint or Puppy as two good ones but resisted when you said about your eyeballs !

- live-  is the word you need, Live Linux can be run from USB or DVD to try it out without installation. Persistent is another word to research, some variations will not preserve your 'doings' others will require writable media to store your 'doings' on.

I think Puppy is one that cannot do thunderbolt, not studied them in detail.

5. ) No Linux will not go wrong and break your m/c, you might though ! Especially if you try to install and/or re-partition etc. Much less chance with a Live on USB. I would almost go so far as to say a Live one wont let you do damage, but I know there is no limit to human ingenuity

Dont do it on your main high-end m/c first !

[Alien 13]

9 minutes ago, SilverAstro said:

Dont do it on your main high-end m/c first !

I think it will get tried out on my older Dell XPS first as the Win 7 its running is so slow.

Alan

[rotatux]

3 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

The best option for me would be to install everything Linux related including drivers etc on a USB stick and run from that but dont know if that can be done.

Then you must add as a requirement to not touch your boot device / sector, or it will make your BIOS-MBR-system unbootable when you remove the USB disk.

Or with a recent EFI-based system, it might be simpler and work directly (can't tell, I don't own those beasts).

3 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

1. My laptop is USB 3 only with an additional thunderbolt port, are these supported?

Most probably, yes (USB3 sure 99%, thunderbolt unsure)

3 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

2. Will Linux have working drivers for high end graphics cards like the GTX 970M?

If it's a NV124/GM204 (NV110 family), the nouveau open-source driver seems to be lagging with no 2D support: see https://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FeatureMatrix/

If you select a distribution which ships proprietary nvidia drivers, the answer will probably be 'yes' but it's not pure linux any more.

3 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

3. Linux drivers for the soundblaster sound card?

I doubt you have a soundblaster since that's from very old times... most PC nowadays are based on Intel' AC97 and perfectly supported.

3 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

4. Support or drivers for Keyboard FX themes?

I don't know what those FX themes are.

3 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

5. Can Linux break my machine if it goes wrong?

Though it has happened by the past for a few poorly-engineered CD/DVD drives, you can safely presume 'no'.

It can break your windows install in the same machine though if you don't take care. You should backup it. It will be a new world with it's own designations for your hardware, you could get confused and overwrite your windows and realize too late, so if you can, remove the windows drive to avoid accidents.

Edit: about Wine... never had luck with this one, YMMV. But it may be a good idea to switch to Linux-ecosystem applications if you can. Good luck and keep the force.

[Alien 13]

6 minutes ago, rotatux said:

Then you must add as a requirement to not touch your boot device / sector, or it will make your BIOS-MBR-system unbootable when you remove the USB disk.

Or with a recent EFI-based system, it might be simpler and work directly (can't tell, I don't own those beasts).

Most probably, yes (USB3 sure 99%, thunderbolt unsure)

If it's a NV124/GM204 (NV110 family), the nouveau open-source driver seems to be lagging with no 2D support: see https://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FeatureMatrix/

If you select a distribution which ships proprietary nvidia drivers, the answer will probably be 'yes' but it's not pure linux any more.

I doubt you have a soundblaster since that's from very old times... most PC nowadays are based on Intel' AC97 and perfectly supported.

I don't know what those FX themes are.

Though it has happened by the past for a few poorly-engineered CD/DVD drives, you can safely presume 'no'.

It can break your windows install in the same machine though if you don't take care. You should backup it. It will be a new world with it's own designations for your hardware, you could get confused and overwrite your windows and realize too late, so if you can, remove the windows drive to avoid accidents.

Thanks for the info, most of this looks complicated to me, I think I will try it on an older machine.

I did look at my sound card (laptop) and it seems to have both intel and a soundblaster recon 3di installed.

Alan

[SilverAstro]

30 minutes ago, rotatux said:

It can break your windows install in the same machine though if you don't take care.

Good point, I carelessly assumed that he meant his Windows machine, rather than the hardware of the machine.

It did occur to me to suggest using a.n.other HD, but I neglected to do so, 'twas easier to talk about Live sticks !

 

[The Admiral]

Given that I don't have a 'spare' computer sitting around, and given the potential gotchas, is the reason I was thinking of acquiring a cheap Chromebook for experimental purposes.

Ian

[The Admiral]

26 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

 I was thinking of acquiring a cheap Chromebook for experimental purposes.

Even then, I'm not sure that is a particularly easy option 

Ian

[SilverAstro]

I thought I'd google   ' best pc for linux '  for you and all the top hits were laptops !

How about a cheapish 'refurb' off ebay if it is just to try it out look-see, (does it need to be top of the range ?!), there is probably a vendor near you into refurb/recycle.  Many are now around with Win10 on,,,,   arrrgh ! what am I saying !!!

[SilverAstro]

5 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

1. My laptop is USB 3 only with an additional thunderbolt port, are these supported?

It seems that Ubuntu has supported USB3 since 2009 so it shoud be stable by now ! Thunderbolt is a 'work in progress' https://01.org/thunderbolt-sw/overview  so you'd best search for your specific machine if you want to chance it   Dell are to bring out (or maybe have already?) a thunderbolted linux

edit : yes, they have http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-laptop?c=us&l=en&s=biz

 

 

[Alien 13]

Thanks for the help people, I am at stage 1 at the moment downloading the Linux file only 4 hrs to go 

I will then try and make a bootable USB stick (no disc drives on my lappys) but then I am left wondering how I get rid of the Win 7 OS from my old Dell or can I just leave it alone?

Alan

[The Admiral]

21 minutes ago, SilverAstro said:

I thought I'd google   ' best pc for linux '  for you and all the top hits were laptops !

How about a cheapish 'refurb' off ebay if it is just to try it out look-see, (does it need to be top of the range ?!), there is probably a vendor near you into refurb/recycle.  Many are now around with Win10 on,,,,   arrrgh ! what am I saying !!!

Yes thanks SilverAstro. Laptop is fine, preferred actually. I've tried that myself too and it seems to throw up rather expensive Dells and specialist brands, though the Star Lites aren't too bad, or else older models no longer being manufactured. I fear the current W10 laptops are designed with W10 in mind and won't play ball with Linux. A waste of money if that's the case. I don't want to spend much at this stage, but feel uneasy about refurbs. Good idea to check out locsl vendors.

Ian

[pete_l]

5 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

I have always said that I would rather stick hot needles in my eyes than try Linux again but I might be tempted to try it one more time.

It isn't clear to me what your goals are for this.

I've been using Linux since it first came out and I used Unix professionally as a developer since the early 80s. While there are some astronomical functions that can be supported by a Linux environment (such as INDI, Stellarium) I can't think of anything that is easier to install or run on a Linux machine.

These days I only really use Linux for internet / email and Arduino development (though that would be just as easy on a PC). Also as a front-end for remote desktop access to the PCs in my little obsy's and as a host for all the "retired" Windows boxes that now exist only as virtual machnes.

[SilverAstro]

I came to Linux when it fitted on two flopies, I was using DOS before that ! and I am ashamed to say Ive not used my Puppy nor Mint for a little while now Mint 'just worked' Puppy did sort of but needed a few more fiddlings to get everything just-so.

Either would be ok  to have a play and to find out if there was anything vital that it cant do !

 

[SilverAstro]

11 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

but feel uneasy about refurbs.

Got two laptops, 2 desktops, three big screens about a year ago for a song. Two have serial ports ! megga surprise, remember them and came with Win7

Thinks : I outa put Linux on one just for fun

[Alien 13]

47 minutes ago, pete_l said:

It isn't clear to me what your goals are for this.

I've been using Linux since it first came out and I used Unix professionally as a developer since the early 80s. While there are some astronomical functions that can be supported by a Linux environment (such as INDI, Stellarium) I can't think of anything that is easier to install or run on a Linux machine.

These days I only really use Linux for internet / email and Arduino development (though that would be just as easy on a PC). Also as a front-end for remote desktop access to the PCs in my little obsy's and as a host for all the "retired" Windows boxes that now exist only as virtual machnes.

I think the main reason for giving it a try is that I have a couple of old laptops lying around that are not getting used even the i5 win7 machine is painfully slow.

Alan

[Gasman]

Hi guys

Most of the distro`s nowadays can be run from the installation dvd or usb stick first to see if they are compatible with your hardware before you dive in and install it. I have an old Sony laptop which had Win 7 initially and then upgraded it to Win 10 on but I got that fed up with the endless updates that as it was an old one I first installed Kubuntu on it as a dual boot setup whereby you could boot up in Win 10 or Kubuntu from a start up screen. Found I was using Kubuntu more than Win 10 so decided to reinstall Kubuntu using the whole hard drive and using Kstars/Ekos for the astronomy and have never had a crash or problem (apart from some dodgy usb leads I had) with Linux.

If I was starting from no knowledge at all of Linux I would certainly use a machine that didn`t matter if I knackered it as when I started I burnt many a midnight oil getting hardware to work but its much easier nowadays. My distro of choice is Kubuntu which is more Windows like than Ubuntu as it uses the KDE desktop.

I`ve just bought a new i5 laptop which came with Windows 10 and so far not had any problems with updates etc so maybe Win 10 has matured slightly?? so for now I`m sticking with Win 10 on it until it gives me grief but nice to have the choice of Linux or Windows as both can run ccd`s,mounts, camera`s no probs.

Steve

[Alien 13]

11 minutes ago, Gasman said:

I`ve just bought a new i5 laptop which came with Windows 10 and so far not had any problems with updates etc so maybe Win 10 has matured slightly??

Thanks for the info Steve, I too have noticed that I get hardly any win 10 updates these days apart from the small "Defender" ones, I wonder if a lot of the older reported issues were with the constant changes to get the free version of win 10 into a fully fledged retail version.

Alan

[N3ptune]

I would remove the hard disk with windows from the existing computer and install Mint on the other HD.. to see how the sound and video card are supported.  To manage partitions you can use gparted, burn it on a DVD or usb key (I believe it's working too), it's bootable and you can format and restructure your hard drive with it, in case you don't like Linux. easy to use.

http://gparted.org/download.php

I use Linux mint to do my little things and didn't had any problems for 3 years now, I stick with the synaptic repository only to install new things, it's full of open source programs, it's wonderful. USB 3.0 is transferring 112 megs per seconds here.

Although when something is not working, it can be difficult to make it work, you will need to read a lot on forum and rely on yourself. But in the end it's time well spent because you are free from proprietary licences, commercial spying, you have the control over your computer. I never had a computer stable has the one I use right now.

They have an IRC chatroom build in Mint too (using the chat client HEX chat), you can go there with 1 clic and ask questions to very skilled people.  I used the service a few time for critical things and they helped me a lot.

 

[N3ptune]

Ah yes, I have the book "The Linux Command Line" you can download it bellow too for no charges. It will explain how to use the terminal and some really powerful things. Very interesting.

http://linuxcommand.org/tlcl.php

[Alien 13]

As a complete novice I have to ask why are their so many different Linuxes around, seems crazy, do they all have a problem? its seemingly not a viable alternative to Windows at the moment to me but I expect I am missing something. I will still try it out on my older laptop but looks like I will have to get another hard drive for it first.

Alan 

[N3ptune]

Everyone can develop their own revision for their specific needs, the source code is accessible to everyone. Ubuntu is for the general public with a polished graphical interface, easy to use, same thing goes for Mint. They are easy to install too and you manage the updates yourself.

I don't even use the terminal very much except to install new things and it's doing everything automatically. I use Mint like windows... using the file manager, except for installing new software. I can run Office, Adobe, Autodesk.. old revisions you can't use anymore in windows 7 or 10 you have to buy them a second time and they were not even obsolete, at least to do personal projects. They work again with Virtual Box?!?! 

It's the greatest thing.

 

 

 

 

 

[The Admiral]

46 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

 looks like I will have to get another hard drive for it first.

Alan 

I think that is wise Alan, 'cos with my little understanding I believe there is a risk that the Linux installation will overwrite the MBR and make booting into the original OS impossible. This is what tends to frighten me off, the traps for the uninformed, and I think there are plenty of them (traps that is, though may be .....)! Best not to have 2 OSs on the one drive anyway.

Ian

[Alien 13]

2 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

I think that is wise Alan, 'cos with my little understanding I believe there is a risk that the Linux installation will overwrite the MBR and make booting into the original OS impossible. This is what tends to frighten me off, the traps for the uninformed, and I think there are plenty of them (traps that is, though may be .....)! Best not to have 2 OSs on the one drive anyway.

Ian

My thoughts too, a quick look around and it doesn't look like the Dell hard drives are cheap but thats to be expected as they "fix" things like the motherboard and BIOS so that only there own items work.

Alan