Starter imaging rig

[Grivation]

Dear All,

Apologies in advance for the wall of text, I'll try to keep it as short as possible.

 

I've been fascinated by the idea of imaging the night sky for quite some time now but time and circumstance have always seemed to conspire against me. My father recently brought a C8 on an ALT-AZ mount and having a play with that has given me the kick I need to get this idea off the ground.

 

Having scoured these forums for ideas and advice (I have purchased and read the excellent 'Making every photo count') it strikes me that you could easily blow the best part of 5K GBP on imaging without trying very hard - this is a little beyond means for now. The consensus wisdom seems to be get the very best mount you can afford, which I'm sure is very good advice so I priced up a NEQ6 syntrek/SW 150pds combo - with lenses, filters, adapter etc it still came out at £1500 (without camera, i'll use my DSLR, a Nikon D3200)

 

Okay, so I'm not ruling that out but I know very little about imaging and absolutely nothing about the practicalities of it. There a couple of threads on here, one showcasing the abilities of the SW 130PDS, the other showing imaging with the EQ3 PRO GOTO (or similar) mount. Both seem very good. But the consensus wisdom does seem to suggest that an EQ3 mount is not going to cut it for imaging.

 

Anyway - to my question. The following is available from FLO:

 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-130p-ds-eq3-pro-goto.html

 

Its an SW Explorer 130 PDS mounted on a EQ3-PRO-GOTO mount for £574. Adding in collimator, lenses, filters and adapters, its still much more comfortably within my means.

 

But will it be a good scope to learn the skills I need to take photos of the night sky, it strikes me I have to master (not limited to) the following things:

 

-How to set it up.

-Polar Alignment.

-Star Alignment.

-How to get it working with EQMOD.

- Collimation.

-How to use it with a DSLR (focussing, ISO, darks, flats, bias etc etc).

-How to use filters.

-Later, how to use a CCD with the above.

-How to connect my camera to the computer and run it.

-How to process the data into images.

-And probably a lot more.

 

And so Dear Forum Member, to my question - can I master all the above with the cheaper scope/mount? And upgrade once I know my new found hobby to be, is within my abilities.

Or would it be easier/give me a greater chance of success of mastering the above with the nuclear option of the NEQ6/150PDS.

I'll be imaging from 55N (a suburb of Riga, Latvia), on a terrace. Above street level but I would guess fairly light polluted with the old sodium street lamps.

 

Many thanks in advance for any replies,

Kind Regards,

Stephen.

 

 

[spillage]

I would you suggest looking at the second hand market first and would suggest a heq5 or eq6 mount. The 130pds has a large following on this site and I have yet to get my hands on one and they do come up on a regular basis on the second hand market.

I would say not to bother too much with filters or coma corrector and just get the t2 adapter for your dslr then giving ap a go and maybe look at getting a guide scope and guide camera next.

 

 

[geordie85]

Both skywatcher 130pds and 150pds are very capable scopes so you won't go far wrong with either of them.

With regards to the mount, yes it is important to have a mount that's capable to hold and track consistently but also you'll need a mount that you'll use. The Neq6 is a very heavy mount and if you have to set up every time then lugging a heavy mount in and out every night may put you off using it. 

I used to have am eq5 pro and would carry it outside every single opportunity that I had, even if the skies weren't perfect. I upgraded to am Neq6 and now only use it if my skies are perfectly clear and there is no moon. 

Don't get me wrong, I love my mount but kinda wish I'd gone for the Heq5 as it's lighter and would still be able to handle my scope and camera with ease.

[wornish]

Don't forget you need power as well. A Powertank or equivalent works well.

Definitely look on the second hand market as mounts do come up.

Also maybe look at iOptron mounts as they are lighter than the equivalent Skywatcher ones for a given load capacity.

A light pollution reduction filter is probably a good idea given how you describe your location.

 

[Knight of Clear Skies]

Hi, have you considered imaging with camera lenses at all? When looking to image on a budget they give the most bang for your buck. Here's a couple of example 2 minute shots with a cheap rig (EQ3-2, 135mm lens and modded DSLR).

However, these were taken from a very dark site. It sounds like your location is far from ideal. Is travelling to a dark site an option for you? (A light-weight rig could help here). If not, narrowband filters could be an option, to kill as much light pollution as possible.

Hope that's some help.

[wimvb]

If you really want to go into imaging, don't forget image processing software. While GIMP (16 bit version) can be used for basic processing, you should really consider either Photoshop (monthly fee), PixInsight (one time price), StarTools(one time price?), or equivalent.

The EQ3 PRO is a fine grab 'n go mount for a light, wide field imaging setup. With the SW 130PDS, filters, adaptors plus camera, it is at the limit of its maximum payload.

If you go for a reflector, you will need the coma corrector and also a light pollution filter to block light from sodium lamps. (A 2" filter will attach directly to the CC, which in turn attaches directly to the T2 camera adaptor)

[Adam J]

Hey, 

I use a 130pds and would not try to image with a EQ3 Pro it wont take the weight. 

If it has to be the EQ3 Pro then get a 200mm lens.

Something like a 70ED refractor will work well with a EQ5 Pro

But if you really want a 130PDs its got to be a AVX, HEQ5Pro or EQ6Pro.

The 130PDs is a great scope and I really recommend it...but you have to get a decent mount to go with it as a minimum. You will also want a MPCC MK3 and a CLS filter very soon after starting out. 

My HEQ5pro was second hand for around 500 pounds. If you are strapped for cash second hand is the way to go rather than buying cheap new and regretting it. 

Adam

 

[Adam J]

4 hours ago, geordie85 said:

Both skywatcher 130pds and 150pds are very capable scopes so you won't go far wrong with either of them.

With regards to the mount, yes it is important to have a mount that's capable to hold and track consistently but also you'll need a mount that you'll use. The Neq6 is a very heavy mount and if you have to set up every time then lugging a heavy mount in and out every night may put you off using it. 

I used to have am eq5 pro and would carry it outside every single opportunity that I had, even if the skies weren't perfect. I upgraded to am Neq6 and now only use it if my skies are perfectly clear and there is no moon. 

Don't get me wrong, I love my mount but kinda wish I'd gone for the Heq5 as it's lighter and would still be able to handle my scope and camera with ease.

Yes while you have some room for upgrade with the EQ6 its arguably no different to a HEQ5Pro when mounting a 130PDS...except it weighs more.

[Stub Mandrel]

150PL on EQ3 - clearly overloaded

[Adam J]

On 13/02/2017 at 16:29, Stub Mandrel said:

150PL on EQ3 - clearly overloaded

I see from your web page that you used 53x60second exposures for this image (nice web page btw). So you are right anything is possible and its impressive image. However, while it is possible to get good results with the EQ3pro and a 130PDS as per your example, I would think it requires perfect balance and low wind? I also see from your signature that you are using a EQ5pro tripod with the EQ3 but not sure if that was the case for this image. 

As I am sure you are aware, the ability to take longer exposures is important to getting the signal out of the read noise unless you have a very low read noise camera like the ASI1600mm cool, that is what the larger mounts give you longer more consistent exposures.

When I started out about a year back, before I started guiding and cooling my DSLR, I had very similar equipment to you (Canon 1000D, 130PDS...ect) with the exception that I could get 5min unguided exposures on a good night using drift alignment with my HEQ5pro. The image below is 8 x 300s at ISO800 for a total of 40mins with no frames discarded.

I guess that the point I am trying to make is that while you can get good result with a EQ3pro as you have demonstrated, its going to require more skill and it may limit what you can do in the future. Your right that its dangerous to say something is not possible. But I think its fair to say its not optimal. So if you can afford it (which may be the ultimate factor) I would go for a second hand HEQ5pro over a New EQ3pro every time and that is still my advice to the OP, budgets aside.

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

I'll be honest, I've

12 hours ago, Adam J said:

I guess that the point I am trying to make is that while you can get good result with a EQ3pro as you have demonstrated, its going to require more skill and it may limit what you can do in the future. Your right that its dangerous to say something is not possible. But I think its fair to say its not optimal. So if you can afford it (which may be the ultimate factor) I would go for a second hand HEQ5pro over a New EQ3pro every time and that is still my advice to the OP, budgets aside.

It's an EQ3-2, with home made GOTO drive, I can do 2 minute subs with the 150PL and I have never bothered trying to see how long I can go with the 130P-DS as more than 120 seconds and I start to get too much LP at home. I suspect the extra noise in my image is mostly to do with the LP I have here than the exposure length.

I won't argue with what you say, better gear does, generally, mean an easier route to better results. My concern is, though, that many people who would otherwise try their hand at AP are put off by over-pessimistic appraisals of what can be achieved with entry-level kit.

I'm not pointing the finger at any individual, but most advice people get implies that there is a 'minimum standard' of equipment for AP. This just isn't true, you can use an ordinary camera on an ordinary tripod with an ordinary lens and you will get something worthwhile, as long as you have realistic expectations. Every incremental improvement in the set up brings incremental gains, but there's no 'magic point' where your gear suddenly starts producing APOD-quality images. One forum member is getting decent images using an EQ2 mount.

 

[Adam J]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

It's an EQ3-2, with home made GOTO drive, I can do 2 minute subs with the 150PL and I have never bothered trying to see how long I can go with the 130P-DS as more than 120 seconds and I start to get too much LP at home. I suspect the extra noise in my image is mostly to do with the LP I have here than the exposure length.

I won't argue with what you say, better gear does, generally, mean an easier route to better results. My concern is, though, that many people who would otherwise try their hand at AP are put off by over-pessimistic appraisals of what can be achieved with entry-level kit.

I'm not pointing the finger at any individual, but most advice people get implies that there is a 'minimum standard' of equipment for AP. This just isn't true, you can use an ordinary camera on an ordinary tripod with an ordinary lens and you will get something worthwhile, as long as you have realistic expectations. Every incremental improvement in the set up brings incremental gains, but there's no 'magic point' where your gear suddenly starts producing APOD-quality images. One forum member is getting decent images using an EQ2 mount.

 

I agree with you completely you can get a result with almost any budget (although it seems your EQ3-2 is not exactly as it came out of the box), but as with everything its not just a case of what results you can get, its also a case of what you are going to be happy with. 

If you can only afford a EQ3pro then you have only one choice. However, performance is not linear with cost and so I think that a better way of describing the issue is that you will see a much larger jump in performance between an EQ3pro and HEQ5pro then the difference in cost alone would suggest. I.e the HEQ5pro sits at a very nice point in terms of performance per pound and for this reason and given the other costs involved in the hobby anyhow, it would be a wise decision in the longer term to wait and save for a HEQ5pro as opposed to jumping in with a EQ3pro. I think that is peobly the real reason people incorrectly say that the HEQ5pro is the minimum spec, strictly speaking its not but it does make allot of sense as a starting point. 

Now if you already have a EQ3pro I would 100% say why not have a go. 

However the generalities of the argument are not really the point here. The point is to answer a specific question posed by the OP:

On 13/02/2017 at 10:41, Grivation said:

And so Dear Forum Member, to my question - can I master all the above with the cheaper scope/mount? And upgrade once I know my new found hobby to be, is within my abilities.

Or would it be easier/give me a greater chance of success of mastering the above with the nuclear option of the NEQ6/150PDS.

I'll be imaging from 55N (a suburb of Riga, Latvia), on a terrace. Above street level but I would guess fairly light polluted with the old sodium street lamps.

Hence, my answer to the OP is YES! you will have a much easier time of creating pleasing results using a NEQ6/150PDS. You will likely have to work much harder for pleasing results if you chose a setup based on a EQ3pro mount as your balance / alignment will have to be perfect to get you tracking half as good as the NEQ6 with only an average balance and alignment. It will mean you spend more time taking pictures and less time tuning the mount. 

However, what I will say is that you will get equal results from a HEQ5pro with a 130PDS or a 150PDS as you will with a NEQ6, you only really need a NEQ6 for a 200PDS and heavier. Below that weight both mounts behave very much the same, especially if you use a 50mm guide scope when you start guiding later in the hobby.  

So as a compromise I would actually recommend a HEQ5pro with a 130PDS scope. The 130PDS has a better field of view for allot of DSO's anyway, for example you can fit M31 onto a APS-C sensor. It will also save you quite a bit of cash over the NEQ6/150pds option (and a NEQ6 is dam heavy anyhow), cash that it sounds like you are going to want to invest into a UHC / CLS filter given the level of light pollution you are describing. 

 

 

 

 

[Grivation]

Thank you all very much for taking the time to respond to my questions!

The images posted here are an inspiration and the reason I want to get into this hobby.

Will definitely consider the second hand option, the reason I went with the eq6 was that the non-goto option is only 60 odd quid more expensive than the neq5 with goto (for some reason the neq5 doesn't have an option for a non-goto mount)

It looks like the neq5/eq6 route might well be the way to go, whilst the images posted here with the eq3-2 mount are undoubtably stunning, they are also the product of a skilled operator, something than I am not (at least yet ).

And definitely plenty of other things to consider as well.

Thanks once again - if I can now get all the kit together in the next month or so, I can try and get some imaging done before the long summer days start to confound me. I daresay I'll be back with blurry pictures of the night sky, looking for advice once again 

[Adam J]

45 minutes ago, Grivation said:

Thank you all very much for taking the time to respond to my questions!

The images posted here are an inspiration and the reason I want to get into this hobby.

Will definitely consider the second hand option, the reason I went with the eq6 was that the non-goto option is only 60 odd quid more expensive than the neq5 with goto (for some reason the neq5 doesn't have an option for a non-goto mount)

It looks like the neq5/eq6 route might well be the way to go, whilst the images posted here with the eq3-2 mount are undoubtably stunning, they are also the product of a skilled operator, something than I am not (at least yet ).

And definitely plenty of other things to consider as well.

Thanks once again - if I can now get all the kit together in the next month or so, I can try and get some imaging done before the long summer days start to confound me. I daresay I'll be back with blurry pictures of the night sky, looking for advice once again 

No problem, but dont get confused between the NEQ5 and HEQ5Pro as I suggested they are very different mounts. Good luck and welcome to the hobby.