Are we in a Universal polar jet powered by a Universal black hole?

[mpc755]

Black holes banish matter into cosmic voids

Quote

But Haider's team also found that a surprising fraction of normal matter - 20% - is likely to be have been transported into the voids. The culprit appears to be the supermassive black holes found in the centres of galaxies. Some of the matter falling towards the holes is converted into energy.

This energy is delivered to the surrounding gas, and leads to large outflows of matter, which stretch for hundreds of thousands of light years from the black holes, reaching far beyond the extent of their host galaxies.

At the scale of our Universe is the energy described above dark energy? Is a Universal black hole powering a Universal polar jet that we exist in?

[andrew s]

To your first question, I have not had a chance to read the paper carefully yet from the summary you quoted from it seem the energy is converted into the kinetic energy of normal matter which carries it way from the region of the supermassive black holes and their associated galaxies and into the voids. It does not seem to me to be dark energy as conventionally defined in the LCDM (lamda Cold Dark Matter) model. The simplest model for dark energy is the cosmological constant representing a net curvature to spacetime in the absence of matter.

I am not aware of any theory to approach answering your second.

Regards Andrew

 

[mpc755]

6 minutes ago, andrew s said:

To your first question, I have not had a chance to read the paper carefully yet from the summary you quoted from it seem the energy is converted into the kinetic energy of normal matter which carries it way from the region of the supermassive black holes and their associated galaxies and into the voids. It does not seem to me to be dark energy as conventionally defined in the LCDM (lamda Cold Dark Matter) model. The simplest model for dark energy is the cosmological constant representing a net curvature to spacetime in the absence of matter.

I am not aware of any theory to approach answering your second.

Regards Andrew

 

As the matter encounters the black hole it converts to energy. This energy is then expelled into the polar jet. It is when this energy encounters particles of matter, the gas, that is pushes the gas far beyond the extent of the host galaxy.

This would explain the directionality associated with the dark flow and also explain dark energy.

[mpc755]

The following image then represents the Universal polar jet we exist in. The distance from the Universal black hole represents the time that the processes occur at and continue to occur at for the matter moving through the jet.

From: discovermagazine.com

 

[andrew s]

I have now scanned the paper for relevant details. It is based on a conventional LCDM model. The energy outflow in the model is em radiation (matter heats up and radiates as it approaches the SMBH) as they found they only got the normal material outflow when they included the radiation pressure in model. I could find no mention of a net mass flow in the model.

Regards Andrew

[mpc755]

7 minutes ago, andrew s said:

I have now scanned the paper for relevant details. It is based on a conventional LCDM model. The energy outflow in the model is em radiation (matter heats up and radiates as it approaches the SMBH) as they found they only got the normal material outflow when they included the radiation pressure in model. I could find no mention of a net mass flow in the model.

Regards Andrew

"This energy is delivered to the surrounding gas", just as dark energy is delivered to the matter in the Universe.

[andrew s]

18 minutes ago, mpc755 said:

"This energy is delivered to the surrounding gas", just as dark energy is delivered to the matter in the Universe.

I can't comment on that but in the model it was modeled as conventional radiation pressure.

Not sue I can add anymore the paper is quite accessible. 

Regards Andrew

 

[mpc755]

16 minutes ago, andrew s said:

I can't comment on that but in the model it was modeled as conventional radiation pressure.

Correct, which is what I am saying dark energy is, on a larger scale. The radiation associated with the supermassive black hole causing the particles of matter, the gas, to be pushed far beyond the extent of the host galaxy is a smaller version of the Universal black hole pushing the matter outward and away from it.

[andrew s]

In conventional LCDM the dark energy is driving the accelerated expansion of spacetime. This expansion effect on "conventional" dark and normal matter is the same in the sense that spacetime expands with matter embedded in it. The difference between dark matter and normal matter is that only normal matter interacts with EM radiation and so feels radiation pressure discussed in the model. So your analogy is I feel approximate.

However, as I said above I know no theory to approach answering your initial second question.

Regards Andrew

 

[Scott]

could've sworn I closed this thread a couple of days ago.....

[mpc755]

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

could've sworn I closed this thread a couple of days ago.....

I thought that was a "gravity is dark matter" thread.

[mpc755]

1 hour ago, andrew s said:

In conventional LCDM the dark energy is driving the accelerated expansion of spacetime. This expansion effect on "conventional" dark and normal matter is the same in the sense that spacetime expands with matter embedded in it. The difference between dark matter and normal matter is that only normal matter interacts with EM radiation and so feels radiation pressure discussed in the model. So your analogy is I feel approximate.

However, as I said above I know no theory to approach answering your initial second question.

Regards Andrew

 

 

And this thread is proposing the expansion of the stuff in the universe is actually occurring in three dimensional space caused by our being in a Universal jet powdered by a Universal black hole.

[Mr Spock]

I've never read so much tripe. How about doing some real science?

[mpc755]

3 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

I've never read so much tripe. How about doing some real science?

I'll take that as a no, you don't think a Universal black hole is powering the Universal jet we exist in.

I look forward to your explanation as to what is occurring physically which causes dark energy.

[Mr Spock]

I look forward to someone proving dark energy exists

[Stu]

5 minutes ago, mpc755 said:

I'll take that as a no, you don't think a Universal black hole is powering the Universal jet we exist in.

I look forward to your explanation as to what is occurring physically which causes dark energy.

I too would say no in answer to your question.

Can you explain what a universal black hole and a universal jet are?

[mpc755]

2 minutes ago, Stu said:

I too would say no in answer to your question.

Can you explain what a universal black hole and a universal jet are?

A Universal black hole and a Universal jet are larger versions of the supermassive black hole and its associated outflow of particles of matter, the gas, as described in the article linked to in the original post.

Our Universe is a larger version of the following. We are in a larger version of one of the large outflows.

[mpc755]

I should be referring to the outflow as part of the lobe, not specifically the jet.

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/universe/features/radio-particle-jets.html

Quote

 

Seen in radio waves, Cen A is one of the biggest and brightest objects in the sky, nearly 20 times the apparent size of a full moon. This is because the visible galaxy lies nestled between a pair of giant radio-emitting lobes, each nearly a million light-years long. 

These lobes are filled with matter streaming from particle jets near the galaxy's central black hole. Astronomers estimate that matter near the base of these jets races outward at about one-third the speed of light. 

 

http://chandra.si.edu/photo/2009/cena/

Quote

This image of Centaurus A shows a spectacular new view of a supermassive black hole's power. Jets and lobes powered by the central black hole in this nearby galaxy are shown by submillimeter data (colored orange) from the Atacama Pathfinder Experiment (APEX) telescope in Chile and X-ray data (colored blue) from the Chandra X-ray Observatory. Visible light data from the Wide Field Imager on the Max-Planck/ESO 2.2 m telescope, also located in Chile, shows the dust lane in the galaxy and background stars. The X-ray jet in the upper left extends for about 13,000 light years away from the black hole. The APEX data shows that material in the jet is travelling at about half the speed of light.

 

[Stu]

25 minutes ago, mpc755 said:

A Universal black hole and a Universal jet are larger versions of the supermassive black hole and its associated outflow of particles of matter, the gas, as described in the article linked to in the original post.

Our Universe is a larger version of the following. We are in a larger version of one of the large outflows.

What is outside the universal black hole and universal jet ie what is it expanding into? Does this contradict the idea of expansion of the universe?

[mpc755]

Just now, Stu said:

What is outside the universal black hole and universal jet ie what is it expanding into? Does this contradict the idea of expansion of the universe?

The 'expansion' is occurring in three dimensional space, just as the outflow of matter is occurring in three dimensional space in the jet/lobe associated with a supermassive black hole. It contradicts the notion that time and space themselves are being created/expanding. A Universal black hole powering the Universal lobe we exist in might be all that there is. It's likely there is another jet/lobe opposite the one we are in. Our Universal black hole and its associated lobes could exist in a sea of Universal black holes and their associated lobes just as our Milky Way galaxy is one galaxy in a sea of galaxies.

As of now, we have no evidence of an outside of our Universal lobe. That doesn't imply there is, or isn't, an outside our lobe. Just that there is no evidence of it.

[Stu]

20 minutes ago, mpc755 said:

The 'expansion' is occurring in three dimensional space, just as the outflow of matter is occurring in three dimensional space in the jet/lobe associated with a supermassive black hole. It contradicts the notion that time and space themselves are being created/expanding. A Universal black hole powering the Universal lobe we exist in might be all that there is. It's likely there is another jet/lobe opposite the one we are in. Our Universal black hole and its associated lobes could exist in a sea of Universal black holes and their associated lobes just as our Milky Way galaxy is one galaxy in a sea of galaxies.

As of now, we have no evidence of an outside of our Universal lobe. That doesn't imply there is, or isn't, an outside our lobe. Just that there is no evidence of it.

But you are comparing two totally different situations. With a supermassive black hole and jet, the jet is simply travelling through existing space, all quite understandable.

In the second case, you are implying that the universe is expanding in an inconsistent fashion along the lines of the two lobes or jets. This makes no sense to me.

As a further question, where does this sit vs all the established theory of the Big Bang, cosmic microwave background etc? We see no signs of this sort of structures so I'm unclear where this idea has come from.

I do not even pretend to understand all this stuff, but if I had to place bets I would go with the established views from the many thousands of scientists working to further existing proven theories.

 

[mpc755]

4 minutes ago, Stu said:

But you are comparing two totally different situations. With a supermassive black hole and jet, the jet is simply travelling through existing space, all quite understandable.

In the second case, you are implying that the universe is expanding in an inconsistent fashion along the lines of the two lobes or jets. This makes no sense to me.

When you say 'expanding' are you referring to the notion that time and space themselves are being created/expanding? This is what I am saying is incorrect. I am saying matter at great distances from us is accelerating away from us in three dimensional space.

As a further question, where does this sit vs all the established theory of the Big Bang, cosmic microwave background etc? We see no signs of this sort of structures so I'm unclear where this idea has come from.

I am saying the notion of a 'bang' is incorrect. It's not the Big Bang, it's the Big Ongoing. Matter is moving outward and away from us in three dimensional space. You turn on a hose to water the garden. The water molecules spread out the further from the nozzle they get. A microbe on one of the water molecules looks around and sees most of the other water molecules moving away from them. The microbe concludes time and space are expanding. The microbe is incorrect. The water molecules are moving outward and away from them in three dimensional space.

The CMBR is caused by the ongoing energy being created by the Universal black hole. The Universal black hole must be outside of our visible Universe.

I do not even pretend to understand all this stuff, but if I had to place bets I would go with the established views from the many thousands of scientists working to further existing proven theories.

How are time and space created/expanding? And please don't refer to the balloon analogy. In the balloon analogy the balloon expands in three dimensional space. Point to one other piece of evidence of time and space being created/expanding besides the notion of the big bang itself. What banged? What caused it to bang? What is the Universe expanding into (and that is a legitimate question)? What is physically occurring which causes what is referred to as dark energy? What is causing the dark flow?

All of these questions are answered once you understand our Universal black hole is powering the Universal jet/lobe we exist in.

[Stu]

2 minutes ago, mpc755 said:

When you say 'expanding' are you referring to the notion that time and space themselves are being created/expanding? This is what I am saying is incorrect. I am saying matter at great distances from us is accelerating away from us in three dimensional space.

 

 

I am saying the notion of a 'bang' is incorrect. It's not the Big Bang, it's the Big Ongoing. Matter is moving outward and away from us in three dimensional space. You turn on a hose to water the garden. The water molecules spread out the further from the nozzle they get. A microbe on one of the water molecules looks around and sees most of the other water molecules moving away from them. The microbe concludes time and space are expanding. The microbe is incorrect. The water molecules are moving outward and away from them in three dimensional space.

The CMBR is caused by the ongoing energy being created by the Universal black hole. The Universal black hole must be outside of our visible Universe.

 

 

How are time and space created/expanding? And please don't refer to the balloon analogy. In the balloon analogy the balloon expands in three dimensional space. Point to one other piece of evidence of time and space being created/expanding besides the notion of the big bang itself. What banged? What caused it to bang? What is the Universe expanding into (and that is a legitimate question)? What is physically occurring which causes what is referred to as dark energy? What is causing the dark flow?

All of these questions are answered once you understand our Universal black hole is powering the Universal jet/lobe we exist in.

I'm afraid that even with my limited knowledge I disagree with what you are suggesting.

Can you let us know your qualifications for disputing established theories and the evidence you have to back up what you are saying?

[mpc755]

6 minutes ago, Stu said:

I'm afraid that even with my limited knowledge I disagree with what you are suggesting.

Can you let us know your qualifications for disputing established theories and the evidence you have to back up what you are saying?

You didn't explain how space and time are created/expanding or what is causing dark energy or dark flow.

[Stu]

Just now, mpc755 said:

You didn't explain how space and time are created/expanding or what is causing dark energy or dark flow.

With all due respect, neither did you.

I should not have got drawn into this discussion, which I believe to be just another unproven theory so will take no further part in the thread.