Considering upgrading to guided setup

[carastro]

Hi Ian,

I remember some long conversations with you some time ago.  Glad you're getting into guiding it will make a lot of difference.  To be honest I think you are making things too complicated here.  I am pretty sure the right angled finder has a shortened tube and likely will not be the right length for getting focus as a finderguider.  (I could be wrong here as I am not a statistics person), I just do what works and what I find works.  

I just use a normal 9 x 50 finderscope with an adapter in the back to take a guide camera.  OK the Skywatcher foot might not be as rigid as one of those small guidescope ring brackets, but provided there is no flexure it should work well, it certainly works well for me.  

This photo is of my finderguider mounted onto a WO scope, and in fact this set up is the only time it didn't work very well, because I tried to mount it onto a telescope which didn't have a proper Skywatcher shoe and it wasn't quite stable enough.  But it works just fine on all my other two telescopes with the proper skywatcher shoe (I just don't have a photo of that).  You just need to buy the appropriate adapter for whatever camera you buy and Bern (Modern Astronomy) will know which one to get, as I expect FLO will too.

My other bit of advice is to get a dedicated guide camera preferably a mono one, and not try to skimp on a webcam, a dedicated guide camera will be much more sensitive and you won't have any trouble finding a guide star.  PHD works well and is free and well liked.

Additionally using the finderguider means you can use it as a finderscope as well but look on screen instead of twisting yourself into awkward positions.

Carole 

[ianpwilliams]

Hi Carole

Yes I remember talking about this before.

I spoke to FLO and then Modern Astronomy, and MA gave me a link to an adaptor which would work with the Synguider going into a straight-through 9x50 Finder. So I was planning on going with the Synguider, straight-through 9x50, and the adaptor.

However, MA did say "You’ll need to adjust the objective outwards to achieve focus as the Synguider sensor is close to the surface.", and I'm not completely sure what that means!

For guiding as far as I can tell it seems that I can either use a guide cam, which might give better results but would require a laptop, or an auto guider like the Synguider, which wouldn't require a laptop, and the latter would be better suited to me what with setting up and taking down each time. So that should be all I need for upgrading to guided shouldn't it? No webcams or anything?

[nmoushon]

Hi Carole

Yes I remember talking about this before.

I spoke to FLO and then Modern Astronomy, and MA gave me a link to an adaptor which would work with the Synguider going into a straight-through 9x50 Finder. So I was planning on going with the Synguider, straight-through 9x50, and the adaptor.

However, MA did say "You’ll need to adjust the objective outwards to achieve focus as the Synguider sensor is close to the surface.", and I'm not completely sure what that means!

For guiding as far as I can tell it seems that I can either use a guide cam, which might give better results but would require a laptop, or an auto guider like the Synguider, which wouldn't require a laptop, and the latter would be better suited to me what with setting up and taking down each time. So that should be all I need for upgrading to guided shouldn't it? No webcams or anything?

I second Carole and say that the brackets worked just fine for me. If I noticed any movement I would just fold up a piece of paper and cram it in the space btwn the bracket and the guide scope to stiffen it up. Not the best way but it worked. Plus with imaging at such a short FL I didnt need perfect guiding. 15min sub I was very happy with achieving. Also the movement never came from the shoe/bracket connection. That was always solid. 

The Synguider is possible to use but I've heard its not the best by a long shot. The chip is not as sensitive as even a cheap guide cam. I've never used one so this is just from what I've read. If you go this route it would be the only thing you need. I would suggest finding some reviews on this that are not from their website. 

[carastro]

 "You’ll need to adjust the objective outwards to achieve focus as the Synguider sensor is close to the surface.", and I'm not completely sure what that means!

I think that means you'll have to adjust the focus by moving the objective lens at the front end of the finderscope, you can loosen the serrated ring in order to release the front end which will then turn to focus.

I am just wondering how much a synguider weighs in case it is too heavy for a finderscope, but I think Bern would have said something if that were the case.  My only feelings on using a synguider is that I have read a few threads where people have had problems with them, so might be a good idea to google that before making a final decision.  Also if it's not very sensitive you don't have much in the way of adjustment the finderscope in order to find a guide star.  Using a QHY5 I have never had a problem as it is very sensitive.

Obviously you will get what suits you best, but just make sure you've checked out the synguider as regards feedback before making that decision as you don;t want to set yourself up for problems.  

Carole 

[ianpwilliams]

I have seen some positive SGL threads about Synguiders, in particular this post:

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/251588-9x50-finderguider-or-st80-guidescope/?p=2741956

I could always go for a more expensive (preowned) one (I would still prefer an autoguider to messing around with a laptop), but I would have to wait a little longer to buy it. With the Synguider apparently being the cheapest option, could anyone recommend any better ones that aren't top of the range and hugely expensive (just in case I end up having no luck with an autoguider and end up having to go guidecam and laptop in the end anyway)?

[ianpwilliams]

The next one up in terms of price on FLO is this one:

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/guide-cameras/starlight-xpress-costar-cmos-autoguider.html

Although that one doesn't seem to have a screen, so maybe you need to use a laptop with this one?

In which case maybe I'll have to look at a guide cam after all. I can't say I like the idea of having to set up a fold out chair and the laptop as well as everything else, or relying on the laptop battery to hold out for a long guided session, or having to learn how to use all the Astro software. But on the plus side it could be more enjoyable controlling the session while sitting down with the laptop (after polar aligning anyway) rather than having to use the SynScan. I guess it would be all about accepting the fact that setup time could be as much as an hour or more, and hoping that the clouds didn't come rolling in during that time.

[ianpwilliams]

I've decided that I might as well try using a laptop seeing as autoguiders don't seem to be a viable option unless they are the top of the range extremely expensive ones. So that means I'll be picking up a guide cam at some point, and probably a 9x50 with adaptor, or maybe an ST80.

So the plan is to get outside one clear night and do some unguided imaging, but using the laptop for whatever programs I can, and hopefully not using the SynScan. Then hopefully by the time I get a guide cam it won't be too much of a jump to use the extra software required to support the guiding element. So I could do with knowing what software I should download and install onto my laptop so that I can have a play with it indoors to try and learn how to use it.

When it comes to Stellarium, I tend to only use that prior to the session in order to decide what target I might want to go for. So I'm hoping I won't need to use that (not least because I hear it can be processor-heavy, which might also mean battery-draining).

I've got Polar Finder installed, but I tend to use the App on my phone when I polar align, so again I don't see a need for that on the laptop.

It looks like I'll certainly need PHD2 when I eventually get to guiding, so I'll download and install that.

But what software will I need for unguided imaging (and maybe for guided imaging too)? Would I just need whatever software is used in place of the SynScan (and what would that software be?)? And is there any other software that might be useful while I'm out there?

EDIT: just looking on my laptop I've got ASCOM, Astro Tortilla, Fitswork, PHD2, although I'm not sure what they do.

[ianpwilliams]

Looks like I'll be needing EQMOD in order to forget about the SynScan. Although looking at the EQMOD website I can't work out if I'll need EQASCOM or EQMODLX, and whether it'll be worth downloading any of the other EQ programs. And it looks like I'll need the EQDIR adaptor:

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-cables-leads-accessories/hitecastro-eqdir-adapter.html

[ianpwilliams]

I'm trying to run EQASCOM, but it just keeps trying to open EQMOD and failing. The program flashes up then closes again. And then I have to restart the laptop because I can't stop the process, because it keeps starting and then stopping again.

[Barry-Wilson]

Ian

I'm not certain from your post above whether you have your laptop and eqdir cable connected to your mount when you are trying to open Eqmod?  The Eqmod script that operates Eqascom will only open properly if you are connected to your mount with the right Eqdir cable, your mount is switched on prior to starting Eqmod and you have set the correct port on your laptop (if using the older serial to usb type of cable) althoough this is not required if using the newer USB type from Hitec Astro.  Otherwise it just flashes on and off trying to connect.

You can 'kill' Eqmod (ie stop it trying to connect and flashing on and off) by running the Kill Eqmod script in the Eqmod folder from the windows Start menu/Programs.

If you can be more descriptive on the steps you are taking I'll try and help.

HTH

Barry

[ianpwilliams]

Hi Barry, I was trying to run the program by itself (not connected to the mount) so that I could play around with it and learn how to use it. So that'll be what caused the issue. Maybe I'll have to work out how to use the program (and the other programs) while connected to the mount and indoors. As for the cable, I have an HEQ5 Pro SynScan so I'm guessing I'll need the USB to serial cable.

So for programs during the imaging session, am I going to be looking to be running AstroTortilla and EQASCOM when unguided, and also PHD2 when guided?

[Barry-Wilson]

As you are using a Canon 1100D, an obvious choice is BackYard Eos, http://www.otelescope.com/index.php?/page/index.html.

I started with a Canon and this was my first imaging capture software.  I haven't used, but have read good reviews, APT and this is another programme for you to evaluate, http://www.ideiki.com/astro/Default.aspx.

Both will do a good job I'm sure.

There are many other programmes and I'm sure others will chip in with their experience.

[ianpwilliams]

Ok thanks, I'll have a look at both, and the others, and try to work out what I'll be using and when. I recall that one of the programs seems to tell you how far out your polar alignment is, so I wonder if that would enable me to get better alignment by making small changes to the bolts and checking the results in the program, which might lead to better alignment and longer unguided subs, maybe 90 or 120 seconds rather than 60 second subs with lots of rejects? Anyway, I'll start a new thread in the software section once I've done some research.

Meantime I could do with some recommendations for guide cams which won't break the bank if possible (I'm sure I'll go preowned anyway because of the added expense of the other items). Also, would a 9x50 + adaptor or ST80 work better with a guide cam?

[Barry-Wilson]

Ian - you are best placed to beging a new thread in the Getting Started with Imaging section.  PHD2 has a good drift alignemnt tool, Alignmaster is inexpensive and is a good tool too, Eqmod's PA tool will give you a good enough alignment for 10 minute subs without further refinement if you are meticulous - see Chris Shilito's Eqmod You Tube video tutorials.  SGL's classifieds or Astro Buy and Sell regularly sell guide cams whether QHY5 (and later versions) or Lodestars and would be a good place to start.

With your 130pds, I would have thought a finderguider would be sufficient.  Bernard at Modern Astronomy sells the finderguider adapter to enable connection of guide cam thread (there are various types) to finderscope to make the finderguider.  Make sure your finderguider is well secured in its mounting ring, is reasonably parallel to/aligned to the optical axis of your OTA and securley fixed to your OTA; any movement will significantly hinder accurate guiding.

[carastro]

I think you will find using a finderguider and laptop easier than trying to stand alone Ian, also means you can do everything on screen.

Carole 

[Sp@ce_d]

Ian

Anyone who's prepared to drag their kit up and down stairs for a brief bit of clear skies with our weather, deserves a helping hand in my book!  I'm near Edinburgh, so I can help you figure this stuff out. To start with, I have finder guiders & an ST80, if you've not seen them in action before you are welcome to have a look, get an idea of size/weight how they work etc.  Sometimes it helps to actually be able to see stuff before you spend the hard earned if you're not sure. I can help you with the software setup too.

I had some great help on here when I started out & went through the same curve.. so the offers there if you need it..more than happy to pass it on. Drop me a PM if you like.

Graham

[ianpwilliams]

As you are using a Canon 1100D, an obvious choice is BackYard Eos, http://www.otelescope.com/index.php?/page/index.html.

I started with a Canon and this was my first imaging capture software.  I haven't used, but have read good reviews, APT and this is another programme for you to evaluate, http://www.ideiki.com/astro/Default.aspx.

Both will do a good job I'm sure.

There are many other programmes and I'm sure others will chip in with their experience.

Yes BackYard EOS seems to be the way to go. But I'm still confused as to what software I will be needing to use (as I get the impression that there isn't a single program that does everything). If I can work out what software I'll be using then I can start reading up on it. So I'll start a new thread in "Getting Started".

[ianpwilliams]

Ian

Anyone who's prepared to drag their kit up and down stairs for a brief bit of clear skies with our weather, deserves a helping hand in my book!  I'm near Edinburgh, so I can help you figure this stuff out. To start with, I have finder guiders & an ST80, if you've not seen them in action before you are welcome to have a look, get an idea of size/weight how they work etc.  Sometimes it helps to actually be able to see stuff before you spend the hard earned if you're not sure. I can help you with the software setup too.

I had some great help on here when I started out & went through the same curve.. so the offers there if you need it..more than happy to pass it on. Drop me a PM if you like.

Graham

Thanks for the offer Graham! I may well hold you to that, particularly when it comes to the software side of things, as I'm picturing all kinds of confusion when it comes to knowing what to do and when. I currently have a step-by-step guide which I created for myself for my imaging sessions (otherwise I would undoubtedly miss out a vital step somewhere along the line), so if I can work out what software to use then hopefully I can incorporate some new steps into my instructions and have some trial runs.

[ianpwilliams]

I've started a new thread here:

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/255150-hardware-and-software-advice-needed-for-upgrading-to-guided-imaging/#entry2784112

All opinions welcome here or there.