Binoviewers, Plossls & stating the obvious?

[Dude_with_the_tube]

Thanks for the replies. We are talking diagonal prisms aren't we, not erecting prisms. See, I'm confused already. Oops

John

Diagonal prisms John NOT erecting

[YKSE]

3. A quick change change for GPC.

This and the clicklock for EPs alone might cost as much as the present maxbright

[Dude_with_the_tube]

No issue with that statement - The Baader website clearly states that the Maxbright Binoviewer is no longer available and that an improved version will be forthcoming. Unfortunately, it's also quite clear that there is no time frame for the arrival of the replacement.

This is good, because the fact a newer Baader BV is imminent, means all of the Maxbrights are now worth less than their owners think! #keepinganeyeonUKABS

Given that at this point, all I have done is read about BVs, there are only a couple of things I'd ask of a new Baader BV:

1. 25mm clear opening - Be honest, it's enough.

2. Click Stop EP holders. Got a 2" one and love it.

I'd be interested to hear what current BV owners (of any ilk) would ask for, but keeping it within the realms of sub £200 wish list. Let's be realistic.....

Russell

1. 25mm clear opening is not enough need something in 28- 30mm range to be able to use low power EP`s and have them fully illuminated and not vignetting so you can use binos on DSO`s too not only for planetary.(something in likes of 32mm-35mm plossls)

2. YES on clicklocks!

3.High quality prisms and good coatings on them to gain as much light as possible as you need to remember that by using binoviewers you do loose half a magnitude or about 1" of your apperture.

And cost of these to be about 250quid

these are my requirements

[russ.will]

1. 25mm clear opening is not enough need something in 28- 30mm range to be able to use low power EP`s and have them fully illuminated and not vignetting so you can use binos on DSO`s too not only for planetary.(something in likes of 32mm-35mm plossls)

Sorry - brain fart! I meant 27mm as that's the maximum field stop in a 1.25" EP. Is that not enough to prevent vignetting?

Mind you, I think we'll be waiting a long time for anything that large @ £250. The MkV only has 28mm prisms and that's how much? 

Russell

[Dude_with_the_tube]

Denks have 26mm and it is sort of OK,Televues have 27mm but i dont like the build of them,Mark V have 28mm and these work fine but at a cost.I am still puzzled why they didnt keep the prisms from Mark IV model as these had Zeiss 30mm prisms in them and where fantastic binoviewers.There are Siebert binos who offer even 45mm prisms but waiting list is over a year long and also i think there will be issue with focus on these due to long light pass.Vignetting is caused by prisms not being able to fully illuminate EP ,as such, i would rather have larger prisms what will give me the freedom of eye piece choice,but obviously all comes at a cost.

And yeah i doubt we will see a premium bino for 250 quid unless the unit is completely bashed up one

[Telescope40]

Hi All. Beginning to twitch now and looking to purchase a T2 Prism diagonal.  Two queries.   I am currently able to attach my BV's to my scope without using a diagonal.  I have a set of Celestron / Badder BV's . 

Wondering that by using a diagonal, I am just adding " glass" to the lightpath and therefore this may nagate any increase in the view, I may get,  by using the diagonal.  And then are we back to the financial outlay against the old nugget of " dimishing improvements" in performance.

All very subjective may I presume. 

Thorts and views most welcome

John

[Dude_with_the_tube]

good question John.

Here is purely my thought on this.

There are NO diagonals or prisms in the world what will enhance the views vs stright through views,as such,i would say you are just adding glass into the light path and also actually increasing light path too.not by much but still.Prisms have the shortest ligh path and this is the reason why these are recommended for use with binos(if diagonal is required).Obviously i cant imagine how you are observing with binos attached straight to the scope as  viewing position must be very awkward at some stages,but never the less.If that works for you and you are fine with it,then there is no problem

[Telescope40]

My BV's are these.   They are angled at 45" so I find they work well enuf as they just attach via the 2 in fit to the scope drawtube.    Will scratch my head a bit longer before a prism purchase.      I may well be overcooking the egg !!! ??? 

John

[Dude_with_the_tube]

ahaa,this now makes it clear

Nope,you dont need prism.That will be an overcooked egg

[russ.will]

They're rather smart, but how comfy are they once you get above 45deg declination?

Russell

[Telescope40]

Hi Guys.  My questions have been answered. Thank you as always. . 

Russ. I do have to think ahead a bit.  So long as I have my tripod extended correctly the 45" issue takes care of itself.   Not as easy as regular BV's I'll admit but then no diagonal required.   As usual.  Always a trade off in this hobby of ours.   Sigh

John

[russ.will]

Well I got back from a job interview today, to find the Binoviewer, 2x WO 20mm 66deg WA EPs, 2x BST Starguider 15mm and the Revelation Quartz Diagonal all waiting for me. Bingo!

I was absolutely starving, but the sun was out, so I risked a reduced waist line and got the Minitower and 80 Apo outside as the priority. I'd swear it only takes me 10 minutes maximum to get the MT plus scope up and running, but it feels more like an hour when you've got something new to play with!

Now I'm not going to do a long write up here. Between the low cloud, there was quite a lot of high haze and so viewing was not what it could be, plus it's all unfamiliar territory. However, having picked a nearby telegraph pole to get the EPs focused and the distance between them set, I swapped out the Revelation diagonal for the Lunt Wedge and slewed to The Sun.

I've had a few bits and bobs now, so it's not often you see something that impresses much beyond subdued pleasure at a few extra percent of this, that or the other quality gained. Indeed, there's a few small issues (not least the size of my proboscis) that make Binoviewing a little bit of an extra faff. But as the cloud briefly parted and the view snapped to focus, I can safely say that what followed was a prolonged period, punctuated only by non too carefully chose expletives.

I swung to the moon in the mid-late afternoon sky and by now, I'd have to refer to my well thumbed version of Roger's Profanosaurus to prevent further repetition. Even in the low contrast, cream on blue view of an afternoon moon, the distinction in apparent height between craters and the pains on which they sit, is simply staggering.  I couldn't even be bothered to be peeved that the off-centre limb of the moon was a touch colourful - The new, to my eyes, view of the moon looking so resolute spherical and textured with deep relief, means such cyclops view minutae are relegated to secondary importance, for now.

It was a short session, but even on this brief outing, this is a paradigm shift in viewing pleasure and you don't get to say that too often.

Russell

[Northern Soul man]

Hi Russell - nice 1 mate - even though these Binoviewer's are a "budget" option and you have people pointing out that they have a smaller aperture at the front, also at the back where the EP's go in - I just find them a treat to use, OK - from the point of Lunar/Planetary they are just so comfortable, I've had a few sessions on Jupiter this last week or so, when the clouds have played ball - the sweet spot for me is around 12mm with no other OCS/GPC in line -I already had the Baader Click Lock and the 2" Diagonal, so just by adding the BV and the Baader Zoom's - my set up is complete, even using the WO supplied EP's before I got the other zoom  -the WO's at 20mm and using the added 1.6 Barlow was just about perfect - I had to compare the 2 eye to Mono, I found, using the 12mm Mono the image was a little brighter, but on Jupiter the reduction in brightness made for such a pleasant view, as I've always found Jupiter very bright in the 11", with the slight reduction a benefit, I could spend more time on the lower contrast features towards the poles adding a new belt for me over this last couple of oppositions - I think a lot has to do with the actual height Jupiter has reached - I think everybody has benefit due to this - I think the seeing was a little better last apparition compared to this one.

Even with the zooms hanging out of the back of the Bino's, the addition of the Click lock and the 2" Diagonal has made for such a stable platform, especially when rotating the diagonal 90 degrees to the right of top centre for such a nice seated observing session - yes you have to think a little more as to the orientation this 90 degree shift gives you, but within a few minutes, you can judge the rotation and just wait for the GRS to come into view - its surprising, if the seeing allows, just how far around the disk you can see the spot - especially when the "hollow" the spot sits in is such a high contrast feature - this hollow really defines the "beginning" of the GRS and the "turmoil" of the white ovals which accompany this feature.

Enjoy them Russell and make sure you can pin down Jupiter for a good couple of hours when the GRS "appears" - if the seeing allows - you can even see the different colours and intensities within the spot.

Paul.

[YKSE]

Nice first light Russell, looks like another one is being converted

[Dude_with_the_tube]

welcome to the club Russ and i can feel your excitement just by reading your post 

next time take a peak at Moon when its dark and I can guarantee,the views will blow your socks off!Not only Moon,Jupiter,Venus,take a bash at some DSO`s like Orion,M13,M45 and also doubles and variables.(not saying anything to preserve surprise)

My next test on moon:Pluto crater to see how many craterlets i can actually count.

[Northern Soul man]

C'mon Dude - now your just teasin  !!

[Mark in Macc]

Welcome to bino-world Russ, what took you so long? You can check out anytime you like but you can never leave. I'm sure there is a song in there somewhere

[russ.will]

Okay. Well, I left the MT tracking Jupiter (from about 6pm) with caps on and came back to it about 9:30pm. The MT still had it dead centre. I'd done nothing but carefully level it at the home position (approximating south) slewed to The Sun and synced to target, once I'd centred the subject. A one star align if you like. Impressive.

Again, I'll hold off any absolute judgments. In daylight and particularly viewing a bright subject, one's iris is clamped right down and this makes eye positioning a precise art. Under cover of darkness and even when viewing the moon (56% waxing gibbous) I found no such issue. However, in the 480mm FL Apo, the maximum magnification I can manage with a pair of 15mm EPs is 51x, with the moon only filling 1/3 of the AFOV. Likewise, 80mm of aperture isn't going to give a definitive DSO experience either.

The TS Binoviewers (and by default, the multiple clones) are, despite looking very plastic when viewed on the interweb, remarkably solid, smooth operating lumps of metal in the hand. However, they do betray their budget origins.

What I initially suspected was a collimation issue (double image) turned out to be solved by pushing the sides of the EP holders until the images combined. Once done, they remained so, but it indicates a bit of tolerance in the fit of the parts. Likewise, the individual eyepiece adjustment, required a whole extra turn on the right holder to bring both EPs (whichever ones I was using) to focus. As I have recently had my eyes tested, I know there is no such disparity in my eyeballs, which are evenly slightly long sighted. Again, once done, this did not requiring readjusting for the other EPs. I also found a little care was also required when inserting the EPs to keep them orthogonal - A little downward pressure was required to ensure each remained seated square as the twist to lock holder was tightened.

In terms of the views offered up, it was a little difficult to separate any issues into those caused by the BV, or the budget EPs in use. Trying the EPs in cyclops mode obviously resulted in a wider FOV, because the lack of the Barlow nose-piece left the scope operating at it's native, shorter focal length - in this case F6 -and this would push some aspects of the EPs performance harder than the effective F9.6 of the BV plus nose-piece. As such, I think the BV does add a little lateral colour to off axis subjects, as both the WO WAs and the BSTs were slightly cleaner au naturel, but the aberrations of the EPs were most dominant. It will be interesting to try all of them at F10 in the LX200, to see if this ameliorates the CA completely.

However, ignoring the relative merits of the EPs (which I'll save for another time) and the lack of magnification to hand, my earlier joy is further reinforced. On axis, the view with one eye closed was sufficiently close to the native view of a single EP in the scope, that reintroducing the other eye to the party leaves me in no doubt as to the superiority of the bino view on the planetary subjects viewed.

Even a tiny Jupiter (too small to see much more than the N & SEB) just seemed to 'pop' out from the background, releasing it into a third dimension, quite distinct from the space in which it sits. The spacial relationship is very much enhanced. The Moon? Well, refer to the above and add a level of texture I've never seen before in the LX200, 12" Dobs, Televue Delos, ES100s, or any combination of the above. And it's just so damned spherical, it feels like a planet (yes, I know it's not) rather than just a really crisp, flat picture.

At this point, I need more exposure to the BV and desperately in the LX200. The lack of image scale, almost gives you that feeling that your eyes are straining, trying to tease out the detail you know is there. As such, it's like I've seen really good IMAX 2D and then seen the same movie in 3D* on a good 60" Plasma. I'm currently waiting to combine the two, to see if my socks will blow off in the way the constituent parts suggest they will.

Russell

* As a home cinema fan, but one that has generally failed to feel his frossit pouch wibbled by 3D, my world was (quite literally, judging by my grip on the arms of the chair) turned upside down by Gravity in IMAX 3D. Awesome.

[Dude_with_the_tube]

Russ,80mm refractor is a bit too small for binoviewers. Recommended smallest aperture is 4" to fully benefit and enjoy binos due to loss of aperture when binoviewing and can cause a bit dimmer image.This obviously doesnt mean that you cant use your 80ED with them.I think your Meade LX will truly show the "home cinema" effect.

[Mark in Macc]

The LX200 bino combination will be awesome. I use mine with a C9.25 and I don't observe planets or the moon without it. I find that the inter ocular distance and the focus adjustment for each eye is critical to get the best from the set up. If I get it wrong, I see 2 images. If I get it right, then there is nothing to beat it.

[russ.will]

I agree, that is critical, but the double image I was getting was up/down, not left/right. Well, initially it was both (!), but obviously I knew the source of the left/right issue. I used to work in camera shops in my yoof and I've looked through a fair number of dropped binos in my time - collimated a few by eye too.

I did note there does appear to be a couple of covers on the left prism housing, one of which definitely does have a set-screw underneath it, so I may tinker if longer term use does seem to cause a bit of eye strain. At this point, it's all sufficiently new that I need to be sure what is the source of what before I mess with anything.

However, I do already realize that a chance to look through a more expensive set of BVs/EPs could be, like so many things, and expensive mistake.....

Russell

[Mark in Macc]

Think of it more as a opportunity

[Dude_with_the_tube]

Quote:However, I do already realize that a chance to look through a more expensive set of BVs/EPs could be, like so many things, and expensive mistake.....

I dont think this could be the case as any premium thing,would it be an eye piece or binoviewer or a telescope from a known brand will always sell with very little depreciation,what can not be said for the opposite.At the end of a day,this is just a hobby and it does boil down to what sort of budget or money you are prepared to play with.

[JED-E3]

I suspect most of the false colour is coming from the 1.6x barlow, I wasn't impressed with the William Optics BV barlow, it showed CA in my newts that went away when using a 2.5x powemate or Baader glasspath corrector.

[russ.will]

Not thinking, I tried my ES 2x Focal Extender (think Powermate without a proper safety undercut!) in place of the 1.6x nose-piece. I forgot that being telecentric, it uses up it's own focal length in in-focus, so nothing would come to focus. Withe the 1.6x NP, I've got about 10mm to spare. Oddly, I also tried the 2.5x Revelation 3-element Apo Barlow and couldn't get anything to come to focus with that either, although if anything, that should have pushed focus a LOT further out.

In all honesty, I'm waiting on trying these in the LX200 which should be able to use the BVs native. I can then introduce the 1.6x NP and get a definitive answer for myself - Not that I disbelieve you for one moment!

Russell