Alt-Az mounts - Altair Sabre vs Tele-Optic Giro Ercole

[Piero]

I have been studying the features of these two mounts:

GIRO- Ercole

Weight : 3kg

Fixing tripod: (GP/Syntha- D-60mm) Thread M10 and 3/8“

Vertical-Bearing : Polymer Bearing Radial  (lubrication free)
Horizontal-Bearing : Polymer Bearing Radial and Axial  (lubrication free)

Material: High strength aluminum alloy on CNC machines

Carrying Capacity : Max.10 KG without counterweight bar // Max. 18 KG with  counterweight bar // Max.36 KG (2x Telescopes)

Price : 379 GBP

(Sources: http://www.tele-optic-tecnica.de/mounts.html , http://www.apm-telescopes.de/en/Mounts-Tripods/Alt-Azimuth-Mounts/Tele-Optic-GR-Mini-azimuth-mount.html )

Altair-Sabre

Weight : 3.2kg

Fixing tripod: (GP/Syntha- D-60mm) Thread M10 and 3/8“

Vertical-Bearing : ??
Horizontal-Bearing : ??

Material: ??

Carrying Capacity : Max.8 KG without counterweight bar // Max. 20 KG with  counterweight bar // Max.36 KG (2x Telescopes)

Price : 230 GBP

(Source: http://www.altairastro.com/product.php?productid=16589&cat=279&page=1)

I think, it would be particularly interesting to know:

1) Behaviour at different temperatures

2) Smoothness of the movements and stability

3) Material used for the Altair Sabre

4) Bearing design and material for the Altair Sabre

5) Manutention required

6) Usability with different telescopes

Could anyone who actually owned/tested them or one of them for a sufficient period of time, comment on these points?

Hope this thread will be of interest for everyone with a medium size OTA willing to use an Alt-Az mount.

Thanks

[brantuk]

Sorry it's been a while before you got a reply. I don't own either mount but I have had a good look at the Sabre at an astro show. It is pretty solid and stable and the axis controls are big and chunky giving a lot of control. I was very impressed with the silky smooth movement and ease of control, and the saddles are chunky enough to take two scopes of considerable weight.

The only reason I didn't buy it was cos I already have a Skytee-2 and I was doing a "look at what you coulda had" exercise lol. But I honestly couldn't fault it at all cos it does what it says on the tin. I've no experience of the Ercole unfortunately - but hope that helps a little.

[Piero]

Thanks very much Brantuk for your comment.

As far as I can see, the Altair Astro seems an excellent mount of quality similar to the Ercole. The skytee-2 with the slow motions is very attractive, although I read mixed reviews about it, mainly about the weak saddles and the grease used which make the mount stiff at mild-cold temperatures. For this reason I am evaluating the giro-mounts, although, I have to say, I wonder how easy tracking is at high magnifications.

[Chris Hopson]

Hi pdp10, a friend of mine has the sabre on an eq5 with an astro atair apo 130 on it. We found the sabre to be a delight to use. Smooth in both the horizontal and vertical. Big knobs to tighten both and the vixen saddle is well made.

I phoned altair a couple of weeks ago and queried the rusty substance coming from where the bearings would be and Nick ( I think) told me it was lube (which in a closer inspection it obviously was) he said the more weight on the mount, like the counter weight would help the bearing bed better and the lube would wipe off and not come back.

He also said he had one in the shop ( with a scope) and after six months of use it seemed to be better.

Anyway not very technical I know, but that's my experience with it. I'm too looking at getting a giro mount, but have never seen a ercole, maybe there be one at the IAS? If not I'll probably get the sabre.

Also the chap at the shop said astronomy now did a review this month, where they used the sabre with a scope test. He said they liked it, but I've not been able to find a copy.

Chris

[Piero]

Thanks for your useful comments Chris. And many thanks for pointing out the article on Astronomy Now too! I will get a copy this weekend.

How did you find the tracking with the Sabre at high magnifications using the apo 130 (or your N200mm if you tried)?

Many thanks again,

Piero

[Chris Hopson]

Hi piero, the highest magnification we got to use it before the clouds came over was 114 x using an 8mm BST.

I reckon it would be doable, as we adjusted the tension to suit our taste. It would be like pushing a dob, or even just let the object drift into view.

Chris

[brantuk]

I agree the Skytee-2 does have a few anomalies - I changed my saddles for chunkier ADM ones which was much better for larger scopes. Last night I only had rough balance and there was a tiny clash of a control knob with a clutch lever - so something is a tad loose in there.

I have both slo mo cables and control knobs on it and last night I was tracking saturn at 125x magnification. The knobs/cables make it dead easy. I personally wouldn't like to track at high mag without them - which is my point really. The only thing that slightly lets the Sabre down is that you have to push the scope rather than turn a knob.

Just my personal preference, but you may get on better than me without the controls.

[spaceboy]

Sorry I cannot offer much advice. I don't have any experience of either mounts other than seeing the GIRO- Ercole at PSP 2013 and giving it a look over. I do though have experience with a GIRO III from tele-optic. As far as I am aware the Ercole replaced the GIRO III.  When balanced the GIRO III I have is silky smooth and handles a surprising amount of weight with minimal effort. For example I can have an 8-9kg 200P + 1kg eyepiece + 760g counterweight for EP changes on one arm and 10kg of counterweight, similar weighted scope or combination of counterweight and scope on the other.

I think the only time where the GIRO may loose out is when it comes to EP changes as although you can tension the axis there is often a need to tighten this up every time you change between a light and heavy EP and then readjust scope balance and GIRO tension to suit. While after a while this becomes second nature I would think something like say the SkyTee-2 with it's slow motion gears I guess holds things in place but I assume that the SkyTee is larger and heavier mount for this.

[Chris Hopson]

Brantuk, would you rebuy your sky tee 2 again?

Many thanks

Chris

[Piero]

I agree the Skytee-2 does have a few anomalies - I changed my saddles for chunkier ADM ones which was much better for larger scopes. Last night I only had rough balance and there was a tiny clash of a control knob with a clutch lever - so something is a tad loose in there.

I have both slo mo cables and control knobs on it and last night I was tracking saturn at 125x magnification. The knobs/cables make it dead easy. I personally wouldn't like to track at high mag without them - which is my point really. The only thing that slightly lets the Sabre down is that you have to push the scope rather than turn a knob.

Just my personal preference, but you may get on better than me without the controls.

To be honest, I think I would also prefer to have the knobs/cables , but I don't consider fair that a person buys something and then has to replace some part of it because inadequate (saddles). I wouldn't buy a car if I know that I have to change the seats later as they might detaches from the car when driving!

[Piero]

Sorry I cannot offer much advice. I don't have any experience of either mounts other than seeing the GIRO- Ercole at PSP 2013 and giving it a look over. I do though have experience with a GIRO III from tele-optic. As far as I am aware the Ercole replaced the GIRO III.  When balanced the GIRO III I have is silky smooth and handles a surprising amount of weight with minimal effort. For example I can have an 8-9kg 200P + 1kg eyepiece + 760g counterweight for EP changes on one arm and 10kg of counterweight, similar weighted scope or combination of counterweight and scope on the other.

I think the only time where the GIRO may loose out is when it comes to EP changes as although you can tension the axis there is often a need to tighten this up every time you change between a light and heavy EP and then readjust scope balance and GIRO tension to suit. While after a while this becomes second nature I would think something like say the SkyTee-2 with it's slow motion gears I guess holds things in place but I assume that the SkyTee is larger and heavier mount for this.

As far as I read, the SkyTee weights ~5kg, possibly not much, but still 2kgs more than the giros. How did you find the tracking with the ercole at high magnification?

[brantuk]

@Chris - yes I would buy the Skytee-2 over again - but only second hand like my current one - I wouldn't buy it brand new.

@pdp10 - you have a very valid point there. The supplied saddles would support two smaller scopes, but I still don't think they're very good cos it can take a much heavier payload than they're capable of supporting - and it's an easy mount to max out. I wouldn't buy a car with necessary replacement items either.

[Chris Hopson]

Many thanks Brantuk, I do like the sound of those slow mo controls!

[brantuk]

It comes with the control knobs on the mount - I ordered the slo mo's separately (just fyi) and added them to the other side.

[Ikonnikov]

I have an Altair Sabre upgraded to the V2 azimuth bearing (which is a big improvement, had some problems with the V1) and two Altair vixen saddles and find it quite smooth to use as long as the moment on each arm is reasonably similar. I seem to remember there were some details about the V2 bearing on the Altair Astro website (it is lubricated but hasn't required any maintenance so far though I only upgraded in October). The mount itself is machined from solid aluminium and is pretty robust.

I tend to put a C8 on the short arm and an AT-72ED (in guide scope rings to allow alignment of the 2 scopes) on the long arm. Despite the latter being quite small, once you use a chunky EP e.g. ES 20mm 100 degree, upgrade focuser (to handle this beast), 2" diagonal and balance alt axis with a 1kg counterweight  it's close enough to the C8 in weight /moment to allow pretty smooth movement. Slow mo controls would be nice for tracking objects but nudging is fine at low/medium magnifications (as long as its well balanced).

I wouldn't like to try using a single scope of anywhere near 8kg on it without bar/counterweights though (or use two scopes of greatly different weights).

[Ikonnikov]

Sorry " it's well balanced " for any apostrophe police...

[spaceboy]

 How did you find the tracking with the ercole at high magnification?

It was only a quick look over while on one of the local vendors display. It is considerably larger than my GIRO III though but then so is it's weight holding capacity.

AZ mounts be it dobs or GIRO inevitably require nudging and it is something you either love or hate.  I'm not saying manual AZ mounts are a chore to use but when two surfaces want to move against each other there always seem to be a degree of stickiness about it. Static friction or something I think a SGL member once pointed out to me.

If you have any concerns about nudging I would say to consider the SkyTee II with it's slow mo controls.

[AndyH]

Noticed, whilst surfing around, that UK Dealer Astrograph, has the Ercole for sale at £319 inc delivery.

http://astrograph.net/epages/www_astrograph_net.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/www_astrograph_net/Products/AGTOERCB

Thought it may be of interest, as it's a decent saving on the full price.

Cheers,

Andy.

[Piero]

It was only a quick look over while on one of the local vendors display. It is considerably larger than my GIRO III though but then so is it's weight holding capacity.

AZ mounts be it dobs or GIRO inevitably require nudging and it is something you either love or hate.  I'm not saying manual AZ mounts are a chore to use but when two surfaces want to move against each other there always seem to be a degree of stickiness about it. Static friction or something I think a SGL member once pointed out to me.

If you have any concerns about nudging I would say to consider the SkyTee II with it's slow mo controls.

thanks for your advise, I will consider it and see whether I find a second-hand skytee 2

[Ben Ritchie]

I have an Ercole, it's a very solid mount on an EQ6 tripod. Tracking is very smooth, at higher powers there is lots of nudge-nudge-nudge as you'd expect, it doesn't bother me at all although in general I favour lower powers  anyway so don't do an awful lot of high-power work with that setup. 

Only downside to me is that although the list price isn't that bad, you just get a bare mount - saddle(s), tripod, and counterweight bar/counterweights if necessary inflate the price substantially. In particular I wouldn't want it on much less than an EQ6 tripod, so if you're going completely from scratch then the final price ends up quite steep. 

[Piero]

I have an Ercole, it's a very solid mount on an EQ6 tripod. Tracking is very smooth, at higher powers there is lots of nudge-nudge-nudge as you'd expect, it doesn't bother me at all although in general I favour lower powers  anyway so don't do an awful lot of high-power work with that setup. 

Only downside to me is that although the list price isn't that bad, you just get a bare mount - saddle(s), tripod, and counterweight bar/counterweights if necessary inflate the price substantially. In particular I wouldn't want it on much less than an EQ6 tripod, so if you're going completely from scratch then the final price ends up quite steep. 

Thanks for your comment. What you said is true about the price, although:

AltairSabre = £230

SkyTee2 = £280

Ercole = £319 (discounted, see post above)

and all require clamps (or clamps upgrading for the skytee2), tripod, counterweight bar/counterweigths. So, eventually the price can be high!

what is surprising to me is that you can get an EQ5 with tripod and 10kg weights for £230, but you have to spend much much more for one of these mounts when their design is simpler...

[DirkSteele]

I have been using an Ercole for about 2 years and I am very impressed with the performance. I regularly use up to about 8kg of scope and accessories without a counterweight and the movement is very smooth and I regularly push the magnifcation above 200x.  However, with a counterweight, the movement is a revelation.  While very good without, it goes to whole another level of silky smoothness with a weight (or a second scope on the other arm which is how I first discovered the improvement).

I am not sure I believe the 3kg weight though. I have two Berlebach non-marring saddles on the Ercole and a quick go on the scales put it at more like 4.3kg.

I also own the older Tele Optic Giro II and it is also a great performer.

[dobbie]

Hi I have the Altair sabre mount v2 very solid& well made I used a 200mm newt on it balanced at the other side and it works very well indeed just like a dobsonian feel to it, I beefed up the tripod (eq5 legs) with a weight on the ep tray and used vibration pads under feet works up to 250x settles down after a few seconds if the tube is knocked not seen a tele optic so can't comment on that one , but now gone back to a DOB ,

[Piero]

Hi I have the Altair sabre mount v2 very solid& well made I used a 200mm newt on it balanced at the other side and it works very well indeed just like a dobsonian feel to it, I beefed up the tripod (eq5 legs) with a weight on the ep tray and used vibration pads under feet works up to 250x settles down after a few seconds if the tube is knocked not seen a tele optic so can't comment on that one , but now gone back to a DOB ,

Thanks for your comment.

Slightly off topic: Can I ask you why did you go back to a dobson?

[Ben Ritchie]

I have been using an Ercole for about 2 years and I am very impressed with the performance. I regularly use up to about 8kg of scope and accessories without a counterweight and the movement is very smooth and I regularly push the magnifcation above 200x.  However, with a counterweight, the movement is a revelation.  While very good without, it goes to whole another level of silky smoothness with a weight (or a second scope on the other arm which is how I first discovered the improvement).

As an example of the load-lugging capability, here's mine with a C9.25 and 100ED, and it works very well in this configuration - smooth and well damped.