Help with webcam - terrible images

[C7tsj]

Bought a Microsoft Lifecam VX800 with the hope of getting some good shots of the moon and maybe trying some time lapse images of the sky but the results are a disaster.

I would be grateful if some of the experts out there could give me a few pointers, here goes:

How essential is software like SharpCam, is it a must or will the stock software suffice?

If I am taking single photos, is it still essential I fit the camera direct to the scope? Just been holding it to the eyepiece just now.

My scope is only a 4.5 inch aperture, am I asking too much to get images of galaxies? I appreciate they will be tiny smudges but I still want to give it a try.

Just now I tried the camera against a 7.5mm, 10mm, 25mm and the last two with a 3x Barlow. Is there any restrictions on how much mag the webcam can take, i.e is a 3x Barlow and 10mm just asking too much?

Moon is still very bright and washes out any detail, even with a filter. I am also struggling to pick out all but the very brightest stars. Surely I should at least get to image the stars?

Any help would be appreciated, feeling a bit deflated as I wasted a few hours on this when I could have been looking at the sky as normal.

Thanks,

Mark

[HumptyMoo]

I believe you have to fit the cam directly into the focuser without the cams lenses (or something like that) to be able to get good images with it. Magnification would then be dealt with by placing a barlow in between focuser and cam, or, a focal reducer to bring in the image size.

This is relayed info from what I have read here over the last few weeks, so as usual, I differ to the pro's.

[happy-kat]

Holding the web cam up to the eye piece will probably create out of focus images due to low light and shake.

Have you modified your web cam and does it still have the lens on it?

[Langy]

Hello Mark, I'm no expert but hopefully my advice here does cover all the basics.

Firstly a webcam is usually only used (usually being the word) for lunar and planetary images. DSO are usually done with a DSLR or similar device.

The reason for this is that the webcam is less sensitive and the objects it is trying to capture are large and bright. When we view these large and bright objects we get a lot of atmospheric interference and if you take a single shot of something like a full moon the chances are very high that some part (even a very small part) will be distorted. So a webcam can record lots of frames in one viewing quickly. This can then be centralised in free software like PIPP and then processed in free software like Registax that converts the best frames of your recording into a single framed final image. By doing this you can combine several hundred frames from a video into one image therefore resulting in what will be hopefully a good image to end with.

Now if you use the webcam the way you are doing at the moment through the EP which is called AFocal you add in extra problems. Firstly getting the camera lined up in the correct position and with no movement is a feat in itself if you do not have some form of a holder. It's not impossible but can be very frustrating. Then you are adding a lot of extra possible distortions into the equation. The actual lens on the webcam and all that glass within the EP. I spent a lot of years doing photography and one of the rules was the less filters (as in glass etc. between the film and the subject) cut down massively on any possible loss of quality. Which is why I only ever had a skylight filter on the lens to protect the main glass and occasionally used a polariser or an orange filter when using B&W film.

The preferred way is to use the webcam in Prime Focal mode. This means at the least removing the lens from the webcam (they usually just unscrew and then pull out) and putting the webcam in place of the EP. Ideally you need to remove the small filter that is behind the lens in the webcam but if you want to experiment just remove the lens for now. If you do not have anything to hold the webcam in place in the EP holder do what I did first time and use a couple of pieces of masking tape. It doesn't leave any sticky residue when you remove it and it's ideal for that first experimental session.

As to software there is no reason why you can't use anything. The main reason that a lot of people use Sharp Cap is that it has controls for all the options a webcam has to offer and more. You need to switch Auto off on everything. There are several controls within Sharp Cap that may be essential to get the image you need. It's free, quite small and certainly worth giving it a go and then you can see if your other software has the same control.

I bought a cheap xBox webcam for under £5 new and delivered from eBay. The mod was very easy, remove lens, remove filter and break 4 little LED's and it was ready to use.

The best way to test anything new though is to try it in daytime. You can check that you get an image and that you can focus. Once you have that working you can play with the controls trying to get it to work on the moon etc.

Some examples of what I've done in my limited time.

This was the moon AFocal by placing my compact digital camera on a tripod at the EP. It took a lot of adjusting as I had to move the scope all the time to keep the moon in the EP and then moving the camera on a tripod. I like it but if you look carefully it is far from clear and there is not much detail.

This was with my DSLR with a 2x Barlows (otherwise I can't get focus) Prime Focus and a single shot. As you can see it has far more detail but still not everything there.

Same night with the webcam. It still isn't full of detail and this was my first proper attempt. I need to adjust the colour first and I believe on that night I was fighting for clear skies. If you look at most peoples lunar shots on here they will all probably be webcam images processed in something like Registax.

Above all experiment and have fun, it can be frustrating but having the webcam prime focal cuts down a lot of the troubles you will face.

[Astrosurf]

Did you remove the IR filter and lens from the cam? As has been said, you need to attach it to your eyepiece holder. That's done by using a nosepiece, either bought ready-made (don't know what would fit yours) or make your own. I can't see anything online on how to mod your cam but this is the sort of thing:

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/131246-xbox-livecam-mod-cliff/

Here's a nosepiece, it just depends if it'll fit. I had to trim down my Xbox cam to get mine to fit:

http://www.scopesnskies.com/prod/astro-engineering/webcam/nosepiece/ac378.html

Do try to us a UV/IR filter too.

EDIT: oops, sorry Paul, didn't read your post properly!

Alexxx

[C7tsj]

Thanks for the replies. The webcam is as new, yet too be tampered with. I think I am asking too much trying to hold it to the eyepiece so perhaps sticky tape is the way to go until I can get a proper fitment.

Agree on the point re software, I think I am rushing this a bit. Need to get the fitment right then run the shots through the software.

Just expected more and quicker but we live and learn.

Thanks,

Mark

[Langy]

Masking tape will be best to experiment. It becomes much easier if you have the proper mount as you can quickly move from EP to webcam without causing any directional changes on the scope.

As I said, just unscrew the lens first and try that instead of the EP.

Above all play with it in daylight first, you can see what you are doing from the comfort of your front room pointing out of the window. This allows you to play and make sure you can focus. Holding the webcam up to the EP or with tape is very tricky, try it in the daytime you will see how hard it is, then imagine doing that outside at night and things just get harder.

[HumptyMoo]

This is purely a thought based on nothing but "I just thought of something", maybe you can use the eye relief and exit pupil size to determine roughly the best position to fix the cam? or point at something bright and hold a bit of dark paper up to the eyepiece to visually see where best the image will display? Although thinking about it in the time I took to write that, the webcam lens probably throws a spoon into the mix...i'll be quiet now

[happy-kat]

Is look to take the lens of hopefully it will just unscrew then you use the telescope as the lens.

A quick search as it seems this web cam does not have a thread revealed if the lens is removed so to use in an eye piece you will need to fashion a tube and attach it to the web cam (once lens removed).

Unless you paid loads for it I would buy an xbox web cam they are like £3 posted and you get what is a known quality as to the images you might expect.

The only post on here for this web cam I could find.

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/163408-cliffs-2nd-attempt-at-moon-mosaic-27th-september-2012/

[Mr TamiyaCowboy]

Bought a Microsoft Lifecam VX800 with the hope of getting some good shots of the moon and maybe trying some time lapse images of the sky but the results are a disaster.

I would be grateful if some of the experts out there could give me a few pointers, here goes:

How essential is software like SharpCam, is it a must or will the stock software suffice?

If I am taking single photos, is it still essential I fit the camera direct to the scope? Just been holding it to the eyepiece just now.

My scope is only a 4.5 inch aperture, am I asking too much to get images of galaxies? I appreciate they will be tiny smudges but I still want to give it a try.

Just now I tried the camera against a 7.5mm, 10mm, 25mm and the last two with a 3x Barlow. Is there any restrictions on how much mag the webcam can take, i.e is a 3x Barlow and 10mm just asking too much?

Moon is still very bright and washes out any detail, even with a filter. I am also struggling to pick out all but the very brightest stars. Surely I should at least get to image the stars?

Any help would be appreciated, feeling a bit deflated as I wasted a few hours on this when I could have been looking at the sky as normal.

Thanks,

Mark

No expert but ... 

software : sharpcap and the likes are very good and helpful. but saying that even the software that came with camera could work.

you may have to play with things like contrast and brightness. 

Afocal -Primary : the best method is primary focus, the webcam lens is removed and we use the telescope as a big webcam lens.

Afocal can be handy, pop in an eyepiece focus it up, hold camera device over eyepiece and theres the picture, sometimes quality is not very good.

telescope and galaxys : same question i asked when starting, in time possibly but the poor webcam will not be able to see them. but by this time you may have a

DSLR camera and its a possibility 

Bright moon : yeah same problem here, plug and play webcam is just that, we as users have to tinker with the brightness, lower this down. 

now tweek your contrast you find these under webcam settings. another trick is to use colored filters, like Greens and Blues and Reds.

a little computer work at the end removes the red overcolor and gives you a nicer picture.

Stars, dont worry about them so much, webcams are really best used for planets, mar/jupiter/saturn/moon and the sun when used with a solar filter.

wasted time, No you have been learning, you have some images to, ok they maybe dont look fantastic and to be honest mine did not either they was very bad.

i think everyone can say there first images was somewhat hit and miss lol.  so for bullet points Contrast and Brightness , these two will need a little playing with.

anything that is automatic on the webcam you do not want , so auto brightness and auto contrast turn them off if you can.

if you have a moon filter install it into your eyepiece , maybe also try different colored filters, these to can help with contrast and cut down the brightness. 

the boring part is taking the image, the fun starts when you make it come to life