Right scope for a planaxy man!

[starwonder]

I've spent a considerable amount of time procrastinating over my first and maybe my only scope.  My budget is in the region of £1500. I currently have 10x50 binoculars and a birding scope of which I have seen Saturn and it's rings.  However Jupiter is just a white blob with no banding but I have seen 4 moons at different times.  And with the help of a star map managed to find M31 last night - WOW, couldn't believe it!  It was faint but I felt so chuffed I'd found it at last!

Because my main interests are Planets and Galaxies but not necessarily nebula or clusters (although I might be tempted) I've narrowed my options down to the following scopes.  Skywatcher 120 ED with iOptron mini-tower 2 mount, or Orion Optics UK 10" or 12" Dob. 

I am only interested in observing, not taking photo's.  I did think I needed GOTO but after finding the illusive M31 galaxy last night I'm starting to think maybe I don't especially if I'm only interested in planets and galaxies.  Will I still get really good images of the planets with a 10 or 12" Dob or is the ED better for those?

Any advice welcome.

Thanks.

[paul mc c]

I have a 12'' 5.3 OO UK with research grade optics and it is an excellent scope on planets when seeing is good,i have seen Jupiters moons as actual discs,seen detail with in the GRS.

I have glimpsed the Enke division on Saturns rings to name a few.

With the size of mirror there is any amount of galaxys to keep you occupied.

PS. welcome to SGL.

[Peter Drew]

Starwonder.

Welcome to SGL, why not pay us a visit where you would be able to compare all sorts of telescopes on the night sky if clear. 

[ronin]

Sounds strange but if the scope can show Saturn and the rings it should show a good Jupiter. Jupiter is a lot easier then Saturn.

[starwonder]

Thanks "Paul mc c" for your response, I feel slightly more re-assured that I'd still be able to see the planets from such a large aperture and at the same time see the trailing arms of a galaxy, that was my ultimate goal, a personal goal if you like but can't wait to be able to see Jupiter's bands and the great red spot and moons around Saturn as well, not seen any of those yet :-(  

I might just take you up on your offer "Brown Dwarf" and pay a visit to Todmordon - I believe the forecast for this Fri/Sat are good. I did look at your website in summer and a friend has also recommended I might want to pay a visit too.  Now the nights are drawing in it makes observing an early evening hobby again. I'd be very pleased to be able to pop up this Friday night if that's okay?

The view of Saturn in the birding scope is tiny, you can only just make out it is Saturn because of the rings round the planet, there is no detail on the planet or the rings, just that the shape is oval round the planet. Hence why Jupiter is just virtually white'ish color and it's moons when they're in the right position.  Been using the binoculars mostly because easier to grab and go.

Thank you all for your welcome to SGL.

[Peter Drew]

Starwonder. Our open nights are on Saturdays, hope to see you soon. 

Peter.

[swamp thing]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I have two observing buddies that own the 120ED. I have to say they are very nice scopes that perform beautifully on planets and deep sky objects. They also look a lot nicer than my cannon like 10" idob.

I often set up my 10" Dob alongside them. On Galaxies the newt is gonna go deeper and outperforms the Fracs, but the newt bludgeons its way past them with little finesse. It certainly doesn't give such a nice view it just gets deeper with sheer size and brute power.

On planets the Frac is a more stable, consistent performer. I would say it outperforms the newt on most occasions due to its reliance on quality of optics rather than size. It also looks through less air well. Making it less reliant on seeing conditions to perform well. On steady nights the newt will come right up and pass it though.

For me its a no brainer the newt is just too big, and powerful for the frac to live with, and it goes deeper. However, I'm a diffuse nebula and galaxy observer with little time for planets. If you spend more time on planets the frac will reward you just as much on most occasions.

[starwonder]

Okay, thanks Peter.

[starwonder]

Thanks for your response Steve.  I've looked through an 8" f6 1/10 PV OO Dob and the moon was so crisp, Saturn was still quite tiny but the image again quite clear, I haven't looked at Andromeda yet with one though.  So really need to know would I be able to see a galaxy just as a small smudge like my 10x50 binos or would it reveal more detail with the dust lanes?  Or will I only get to see dust lanes from a 10" or 12"?

[AndyWB]

Thanks for your response Steve.  I've looked through an 8" f6 1/10 PV OO Dob and the moon was so crisp, Saturn was still quite tiny but the image again quite clear, I haven't looked at Andromeda yet with one though.  So really need to know would I be able to see a galaxy just as a small smudge like my 10x50 binos or would it reveal more detail with the dust lanes?  Or will I only get to see dust lanes from a 10" or 12"?

I reckon you've not yet really seen the Andromeda galaxy - or rather, you have, but only the very core. It's full extent is over 6 times the diameter of the moon in the sky. Were you somewhere really dark? I find that any light pollution easily reduces it to a dim blob. In my 10x50s I reckoned it spanned over a third of the field of view, when I was somewhere dark and clear.

Coincidentally, a similar question came up recently. From what I've read, a few people have suggested 8" or more will get dust lanes in M31; can't speak from experience, I haven't seen them (or at least realised I've seen them) myself.

[starwonder]

Awesome!  Oh well, it's at least a major part of the galaxy!  A galaxy I've been hunting the heavens for for quite a number of years!  Look forward to seeing a lot more then.  It was a clear night but not great as the moon was 3/4 and very bright, I had to get out of it's way in the back garden (live in a village) to see all the stars of Cassiopeia first!  Pegasus stars were quite clear though, although the 1st one of three was a bit dim.  So I don't think the moon helped, even though it looked lovely.  As sad as it might sound the fact that I actually found M31 myself with no GOTO, just a star map and my bino's was a big thing for me, I checekd 4 times to make sure I could find it again and I did.  I could definitely not see it with the naked eye. I should image seeing it from a dark sky sight away and no moon would reveal a lot more...looking forward to that.  

Yes Star Forming I can't decide whether I'd be fully satisfied with an 8" or not.  Going to Todmorden on Sat, maybe that will help.

[nicks90]

you'll be hard pushed to beat a big dob - if you can manage to move it about and dont mind its bulk - as there is no subsitute for sheer aperture imho.

its also super easy and quick to set up.

also star hopping with a big wide angle 2" 32-38mm ep is a sinch and makes finding things really easy, even under bad light pollution. In my back garden I can just make out all four of hercules keystone stars, so appox mag 4 skies, so when lining up my reflex sight I can only zero in on a bright star somewhere nearby and then hop across to my target. but the wide angle skywatcher panaview means i just need to know the approx direction to my target from the start star using SkEye on my android phone and i invaribly get bang on within a moment or two. Serves me well for messiers - however I am looking at getting a proper sky map for fainter stuff and NGCs when I go to darker sites.

Not done any planets with it yet, but i would imagine it would be pretty special compared to my little 70mm frac!

[starwonder]

Hmmm...that's what I feared 'star forming'...I'm in two minds whether aperture is what it's rated to be.  I desperately want to see Jupiter's bands and the GRS, as well as Saturn, Venus and Mars.  But I'm also really keen on looking at galaxies.  I'm not sure whether other DSO's will become interesting to me or not at this stage, although I do find them fascinating.  But as far as galaxies go can you actually see more detail of the great mass of the galaxy itself, ie like the dust lanes or am I expecting too much?  I know I'm not going to see pics like in The Sky at Night magazine but what can I realistically expect to see?  A big smudge?  If so then what's the point of having a bigger scope to see the same smaller smudge I can see in an 8" Dob or a 120 ED? 

[nephilim]

I'm afraid the 'smudge' wont look bigger in a bigger scope it'll just look slightly less 'smudge-like' the Leo Triplet in my 200p are the same size in a 350p but the contrast is very slightly clearer, dust lanes imo start becoming apparent at 12" unless at a very dark site, a 6" scope at a dark site will easily out perform a 12" at a light polluted site.

Steve

[starwonder]

Now that is very interesting, I didn't expect that answer, thank you Steve.  So it's not really down to aperture out right then but it does help if the site is dark enough with good seeing conditions?  What if you put a filter on that filters out some of the LP wouldn't that help the 12" in LP area, I thought I remember such a filter exists?

[starwonder]

Can anyone advise if a Skywatcher Pro 120 ED would also show galaxies as a smudge too or a little detail at least?  Or is it even worse because of the small aperture?

[nephilim]

Can anyone advise if a Skywatcher Pro 120 ED would also show galaxies as a smudge too or a little detail at least?  Or is it even worse because of the small aperture?

A light pollution filter would make a difference but nothing makes up for a good dark sky, for observing aperture is king but theres no point having a 16-22" scope & having no way of dragging it out, as the saying goes 'the best scope is the one that gets used',the 120 frac has good optics (better than a mirror) so as Steve mentioned above, it will be more forgiving of bad seeing etc & good for planets, for me nothing beats aperture when it comes to dso visual though & unfortunately there isnt one scope that will do all things which is why some many of us have more than one scope .

Steve 

[Naemeth]

If I were you, I'd get yourself to a astronomy club to try some scopes out and see what you like. Failing that, get a 10" dob - not too expensive, and you can get some use with it and decide if it's right for you. It also leaves plenty of room for eyepiece upgrades when you want them.

I wouldn't go for any bigger than a 10" dob, because they start becoming less and less portable. The 10" dob is pretty easy to move around (I carry it up and down 3 flights of stairs every time I observe), a 12" wouldn't be so easy.

HTH

[starwonder]

Thanks for your responses, very much appreciated.

Yes, I plan to go to some astronomy club events to have a look through various scopes, I think it will help a lot.  Just concerned I've spent so long procrastinating about which scope I might miss another winter of stargazing where I could see so much more.

Regarding one scope for all...if I bought a 10" Dob it would probably be a OO (UK) 1/10 PV Dob, what, if any, are the restrictions of observing planets with a large Dob?  Surely if aperture rules and provides best clarity then shouldn't anything in the cosmos be clear, whether planets or DSO's?  Or is there something more to it than that? From other topics on SGL I've read that a good frac provides more contrast but that isn't obviously the same thing as brightness, so I'm a little confused on that front.

If you were to design a 1-for-all ideal scope for everything cost no object what would it be, has it been done, thought of, or even possible with current technology, modern optics and coatings?  

[Naemeth]

Thanks for your responses, very much appreciated.

Yes, I plan to go to some astronomy club events to have a look through various scopes, I think it will help a lot.  Just concerned I've spent so long procrastinating about which scope I might miss another winter of stargazing where I could see so much more.

Regarding one scope for all...if I bought a 10" Dob it would probably be a OO (UK) 1/10 PV Dob, what, if any, are the restrictions of observing planets with a large Dob?  Surely if aperture rules and provides best clarity then shouldn't anything in the cosmos be clear, whether planets or DSO's?  Or is there something more to it than that? From other topics on SGL I've read that a good frac provides more contrast but that isn't obviously the same thing as brightness, so I'm a little confused on that front.

If you were to design a 1-for-all ideal scope for everything cost no object what would it be, has it been done, thought of, or even possible with current technology, modern optics and coatings?  

There aren't any restrictions . It's only once you get to a large dob, say 16" that you can think about stopping it down (by making an aperture mask, basically cover the front of your scope apart from a small-ish hole which is off-axis, and avoids the spider for the secondary mirror). The 10" dob should provide better views for most things, refractors usually give clearer (pin like) stars.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a perfect scope, one does not do it all and that is why I own 5, and plan to own 11 when my spending is up .

[nicks90]

a large aperture and dark skies will reveal more detail on galaxies, but you are still looking at a faint black and white smudge unless you are at a really really dark site.

to give you an idea, have a look at this link - http://www.deepskywatch.com/files/dso-guide/DSO-guide-Messier.pdf

with a big dob and pristine skies, you may get close to the illustrations on there. personally i havent seen anything as clear as those, except when i looked through the 20" dob at kielder observatory. but that was truly monumental, as with the right filters i was able to view the western veil nebula almost as clearly as some of the AP pictures you see on here and the whirlpool galaxy was just amazeballs 

[starwonder]

LOL!!!!!!!!!  11 scopes?     Well I'll never get to that many, either I or my wife will make sure of that!!  However I may get a SW Pro 120 ED and either a 10" or 12" f6 Dob despite the 1.6 metre length of the tube just to satisfy my insatiable desire to ponder on galaxies!  So my first scope...any point going for a 10" when ideally I'd prefer the 12" f6 where I could start seeing dust lanes of galaxies, so I'm led to believe.  The Dob would stay mainly at home for DSO's  The ED for grab and go stuff.  If I forget about GOTO for the ED what's a good grab and go stable mount?  Thanks.

[Naemeth]

LOL!!!!!!!!!  11 scopes?     Well I'll never get to that many, either I or my wife will make sure of that!!  However I may get a SW Pro 120 ED and either a 10" or 12" f6 Dob despite the 1.6 metre length of the tube just to satisfy my insatiable desire to ponder on galaxies!  So my first scope...any point going for a 10" when ideally I'd prefer the 12" f6 where I could start seeing dust lanes of galaxies, so I'm led to believe.  The Dob would stay mainly at home for DSO's  The ED for grab and go stuff.  If I forget about GOTO for the ED what's a good grab and go stable mount?  Thanks.

Yeah, to be fair 1 is a solar scope, which could be called a glorified finder .

Any particular reason why you want F/6? I recommended 10" because it's at a size that's easy to move, 12" is a bit more bulky and quite a lot heavier (10" Skywatcher OTA is 13kg, the 12" OTA is 22kg, the base is also heavier). I do feel that if you did get a 10", you could also upgrade at some point to a 16", and the 10" would still come in handy for grab-and-go .

Just a thought.

I think you may be able to get away with the AZ4 for a 120ED, not sure on that one .

[starwonder]

WOW Nicks90 just followed your link...those pics are awesome!  Much better than I expected.  I certainly wouldn't be disappointed if I could see M31 and other's like that...maybe the 12" might become portable after all!!  

[nephilim]

Good thread going on here at the moment re the size of scopes http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/195414-scale-of-12-dob/