Plössls - Are they any different to each other?

[E621Keith]

You don't need to worry about offending me, I'm a retailer

The Plossl has an interesting history. It was invented back in 1860 but wasn't popular until the 1980's when manufactuurers began offering a number of variations. Today the name 'Plossl' is used to describe pretty-much any four-element design and many cheap low quality 'Plossls' are sold under the mistaken belief they are all equal. A 'good' Plossl is actally quite expensive to manufacture because it needs quality glass and well matched convex and concave lenses, otherwise they suffer from internal reflections. I won't turn your thread into an advertisement by mentioning specific brands or models but suffice to say a well-made Plossl is noticeably superior to generic Chinese-made clones.

HTH,

Steve

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the term 'plossl' is only used to describe four elements designs based on two doublets. The 4 elements design that uses a triplet and a singlet is usually called orthoscopic (Abbe). Personally I have never heard anyone calling the latter a 'Plossl'.

From what I read, Plossl are more vulnerable to internal reflection and flare than Abbe which is why they weren't popular until the 80's when modern anti-reflection coating became available.

[FLO]

So in summary, It's a Meade Plossl Vs Omni Chinese clone plossl Vs Skywatcher MA eyepiece?

As far as I can tell it is a 3-element modified achromat v a generic Chinese Plossl v a Meade Super Plossl. Meade have named theirs 'Super' because it is a genuine Plossl (four elements in two symmetrical groups) with a better grade of glass and construction than generic Chinese clones.

HTH

[Naemeth]

Interesting review and thanks! So in summary, It's a Meade Plossl Vs Omni Chinese clone plossl Vs Skywatcher MA eyepiece?

I am happy with my Meade eyepieces but have never had the luxury of comparison with other plossls. If chinese clones are coming a close second to my meade set then maybe there is room for improvement somewhere? without breaking the bank?

As someone mentioned though it's also down to personal preference.. This review is food for thought though.

Yes, they are close at F/5, and I expect them to perform better at F/6. I wouldn't say either of them were "breaking the bank" in all honesty, because I got the Meade and the Clone for roughly the same amount, just the Meade was second hand. I have absolutely no quibbles about getting second hand (I actually prefer it) because it saves a huge amount of money. Even though the difference between the two was slight, for me personally, that small difference is worth the extra money, and on that note, I will probably be getting a TV Plössl in the next year or two, but will be happy with the Meade for now.

I guess the lesson to be learned is that mid priced plössls (~£30) can offer brilliant views, and at that price, a good set can be bought which would last you a long time, until you felt that you wanted to upgrade to UWA Eyepieces (60, 68, 72, 82, 100 Degree etc.). Mind you, the eye relief is poor, and I think I may only be able to use them with focal lengths above 20mm, I've not tried one at less than that so I wouldn't know!

I thought Plössl was used to describe two groups of a convex/concave arrangement (not sure of the order of those two)

[Naemeth]

As far as I can tell it is a 3-element modified achromat v a generic Chinese Plossl v a Meade Super Plossl. Meade have named theirs 'Super' because it is a genuine Plossl (four elements in two symmetrical groups) with a better grade of glass and construction than generic Chinese clones.

HTH

I had no idea what the word 'Super' meant to be honest, and I thought the Chinese Plössls were geniune, but used slightly lower grade glass. The weight between them shows the glass is probably roughly the same thickness at least (130g for the Chinese vs 135g for the Meade)

[FLO]

The Plossl has an interesting history. It was invented back in 1860 but wasn't popular until the 1980's when manufacturers began offering a number of variations. Today the name 'Plossl' is used to describe pretty-much any four-element design and many cheap low quality 'Plossls' are sold under the mistaken belief they are all equal. A 'good' Plossl is actually quite expensive to manufacture because it needs quality glass and well matched convex and concave lenses, otherwise they suffer from internal reflections. I won't turn your thread into an advertisement by mentioning specific brands or models but suffice to say a well-made Plossl is noticeably superior to generic Chinese-made clones.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the term 'plossl' is only used to describe four elements designs based on two doublets. The 4 elements design that uses a triplet and a singlet is usually called orthoscopic (Abbe). Personally I have never heard anyone calling the latter a 'Plossl'.

From what I read, Plossl are more vulnerable to internal reflection and flare than Abbe which is why they weren't popular until the 80's when modern anti-reflection coating became available.

You are not wrong, and that is the point I am trying to make

Some manufacturers use the word Plossl to loosely describe any four-element design. That is not good practice.

As you say, the Orthoscopic is a four-element design but it is not a Plossl (that also has an interesting history but I won't bore you, and I don't think I have ever seen an orthoscopic marketed as a Plossl).

My point is many of the cheap Chinese-made Plossls are not 'genuine' Plossls so are not worthy of the name.

HTH

[E621Keith]

I had no idea what the word 'Super' meant to be honest, and I thought the Chinese Plössls were geniune, but used slightly lower grade glass. The weight between them shows the glass is probably roughly the same thickness at least (130g for the Chinese vs 135g for the Meade)

Naemeth, is the Japan stamped on the chrome barrel or the black body?

Early Japanese Meade Series 4000 (Smooth side and ones with Japan on the black body) were not 'genuine' Plossl, but 5 elements Masuyama, which is probably where the 'Super' came from.

[Naemeth]

You are not wrong, and that is the point I am trying to make

Some manufacturers use the word Plossl to loosely describe any four-element design. That is not good practice.

As you say, the Orthoscopic is a four-element design but it is not a Plossl (that also has an interesting history but I won't bore you, and I don't think I have ever seen an orthoscopic marketed as a Plossl).

My point is many of the cheap Chinese-made Plossls are not 'genuine' Plossls so are not worthy of the name.

HTH

If I still had it I'd unscrew it (trouble with that is that I probably wouldn't be able to get the lenses back in!)

[FLO]

I don't recommend unscrewing any eyepiece, they are difficult to reassemble.

The Japanese-made 5-element Meade Super Plossls Keith refers to will have been manufactured at least fourteen years ago. They are desirable so if you find one second-hand, buy it.

Would you believe a few years ago there were some fake Chinese-made Meade Series 4000 Super Plossls being sold on eBay

[Naemeth]

I don't recommend unscrewing any eyepiece, they are difficult to reassemble.

The Japanese-made 5-element Meade Super Plossls Keith refers to will have been manufactured at least fourteen years ago. They are desirable so if you find one second-hand, buy it.

Would you believe a few years ago there were some fake Chinese-made Meade Series 4000 Super Plossls being sold on eBay

They're the ones in white aren't they? (Instead of yellow)

Naemeth, is the Japan stamped on the chrome barrel or the black body?

Early Japanese Meade Series 4000 (Smooth side and ones with Japan on the black body) were not 'genuine' Plossl, but 5 elements Masuyama, which is probably where the 'Super' came from.

Chrome Barrel, these aren't the Smoth Side ones, nor do they have any green writing on.

Aren't the Series 3000 suppose to be good too?

[FLO]

They're the ones in white aren't they? (Instead of yellow)

I didn't see any, I know they exist because we had a memo from Meade warning us about them and they were discussed here on SGL.

[Naemeth]

I didn't see any, I know they exist because we had a memo from Meade warning us about them and they were discussed here on SGL.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Meade-Series-4000-1-25-Super-Plossl-Eyepiece-32mm-07176-02-/121024228727?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2d9b2d77

Can't find an auction type one, but as far as I'm aware, all Meade 4000s were only yellow, and I believe the early ones may have been green, mind you that might have been the 3000s.

[E621Keith]

Would you believe a few years ago there were some fake Chinese-made Meade Series 4000 Super Plossls being sold on eBay

Chinese fakes of a Chinese made eyepiece. That is new news to me.

Do you have any information of how to spot these fakes? I happened to have bought a 32mm from fleabays a few years ago. If it is fake then I won't sell it to anyone else.

Naemeth, is the Japan stamped on the chrome barrel or the black body?

Early Japanese Meade Series 4000 (Smooth side and ones with Japan on the black body) were not 'genuine' Plossl, but 5 elements Masuyama, which is probably where the 'Super' came from.

Chrome Barrel, these aren't the Smoth Side ones, nor do they have any green writing on.

Sorry I should have said Smooth side or ones with Japan on the black body. There were 3 versions of Meade series 4000 Super plossl in Japan

V1: Smooth side 5 elements Masuyama

V2: Grip ring, Japan on black body: 5 elements Masuyama

V3: Grip ring, Japan on chrome barrel: 4 elements Plossl

[Naemeth]

Chinese fakes of a Chinese made eyepiece. That is new news to me.

Do you have any information of how to spot these fakes? I happened to have bought a 32mm from fleabays a few years ago. If it is fake then I won't sell it to anyone else.

Sorry I should have said Smooth side or ones with Japan on the black body. There were 3 versions of Meade series 4000 Super plossl in Japan

V1: Smooth side 5 elements Masuyama

V2: Grip ring, Japan on black body: 5 elements Masuyama

V3: Grip ring, Japan on chrome barrel: 4 elements Plossl

I thought so, I remember reading that on Cloudy Nights. Masuyama eyepieces are incredibly rare though aren't they?

[FLO]

Chinese fakes of a Chinese made eyepiece. That is new news to me.

Do you have any information of how to spot these fakes? I happened to have bought a 32mm from fleabays a few years ago. If it is fake then I won't sell it to anyone else.

I haven't seen one but if I remember correctly it was around 2007 and they were sold in sets of four. I am sure there is at least one discussion here on SGL mentioning them.

[E621Keith]

I thought so, I remember reading that on Cloudy Nights. Masuyama eyepieces are incredibly rare though aren't they?

Masuyama branded eyepiece ares rare, Masuyama made eyepieces are relatively common.

Masuyama is the OEM for BGO, UO HD ortho, Kasai HC ortho, Takahashi LE, Celestron Ultima and Baader Eudiascopic... The last three are 5 elements Masuyama like the early Series 4000 Super Plossl.

[Moonshane]

so the answer to the question is ....yes they are different to each other....?

seriously though I genuinely think that as long as you stick to scopes over f6 then almost any eyepiece will provide a decent view and you'd have to pay a lot more for anything better. there's not a massive difference between a 15mm Meade Plossl I got used for £15 and a 15mm TV plossl I bought new for £55. Personally I think there's a difference in build quality and in my faster scopes but it's not massive.

there are not many truly awful eyepieces these days from what I can see.

[Naemeth]

so the answer to the question is ....yes they are different to each other....?

seriously though I genuinely think that as long as you stick to scopes over f6 then almost any eyepiece will provide a decent view and you'd have to pay a lot more for anything better. there's not a massive difference between a 15mm Meade Plossl I got used for £15 and a 15mm TV plossl I bought new for £55. Personally I think there's a difference in build quality and in my faster scopes but it's not massive.

there are not many truly awful eyepieces these days from what I can see.

Really? My 10mm MA begs to differ .

There was a difference yes, not a huge one though. But between the MA and the Meade, the difference was pretty huge.

Sometimes I wish I'd gone with a 150P Dob, being ~F/8.

[Moonshane]

sorry, I meant to say, well done for going to the effort of doing this review. it's a really useful resource for people starting out and wondering what all the options and benefits of one over the other. the ensuing debate also helps as it means that readers get a sense of the complexity of purchasing eyepieces! apart from enjoying the experience, this is exactly why I do my own versions and DIY threads etc.

[John]

The Meade 3000 plossls have been mentioned so I will give them a plug. They were a less expensive plossl in Meade's range but ran in parallel with the 4000 series for quite a few years. They used green writing on the barrels and the original range had no rubber grips and no rubber eye cup. A later variant added these rubber parts but retained the green writing. The 3000's were manufactured in Japan for most of their time in production but I believe the last ones were either made in China or Taiwan.

They are a 4 element in 2 groups design and the main difference between them and the 4 element 4000's is that the edges of the lenses are not blackened. Despite this they are very good performers and can be real bargains on the used market. When I sold a couple a few years back I struggled to get £20 apiece for them.

[Naemeth]

The Meade 3000 plossls have been mentioned so I will give them a plug. They were a less expensive plossl in Meade's range but ran in parallel with the 4000 series for quite a few years. They used green writing on the barrels and the original range had no rubber grips and no rubber eye cup. A later variant added these rubber parts but retained the green writing. The 3000's were manufactured in Japan for most of their time in production but I believe the last ones were either made in China or Taiwan.

They are a 4 element in 2 groups design and the main difference between them and the 4 element 4000's is that the edges of the lenses are not blackened. Despite this they are very good performers and can be real bargains on the used market. When I sold a couple a few years back I struggled to get £20 apiece for them.

http://www.telescope...0mm_Plossl.html

At £37, is it a bargain?

Oh, and thanks for the clarification and help everyone! I hope this will prove useful to quite a few beginners like myself .

[John]

http://www.telescope...0mm_Plossl.html

At £37, is it a bargain?

Oh, and thanks for the clarification and help everyone! I hope this will prove useful to quite a few beginners like myself .

Hmmm - maybe, though I just sold one of those for £22 including delivery !

I'm not keen on 40mm plossls really though, 32mm makes for a nicer apparent field of view and shows as much sky. Unfortunately there was not a 32mm in the Meade 3000 range.

If I was in the market for plossls now for I'd be looking at either used Tele Vues or the Vixen NPL's I think.

[Naemeth]

Hmmm - maybe, though I just sold one of those for £22 including delivery !

I'm not keen on 40mm plossls really though, 32mm makes for a nicer apparent field of view and shows as much sky. Unfortunately there was not a 32mm in the Meade 3000 range.

If I was in the market for plossls now for I'd be looking at either used Tele Vues or the Vixen NPL's I think.

I think I'll pass then, thanks John .

[andrew63]

This is one of the original meade super plossl i have - the 5 element type - 26mm in this case. What i like about them is they have a 55 deg field of view - which might not seem much but it is noticeable in the field over the standard ones. They are very sharp and well corrected. Thanks for starting an informative thread.

andrew

[Naemeth]

This is one of the original meade super plossl i have - the 5 element type - 26mm in this case. What i like about them is they have a 55 deg field of view - which might not seem much but it is noticeable in the field over the standard ones. They are very sharp and well corrected. Thanks for starting an informative thread.

andrew

I definitely recognise that one, but thanks for posting the picture! Just out of interest, where on the eyepiece is it stamped "Japan"?

[E621Keith]

http://www.telescope...0mm_Plossl.html

At £37, is it a bargain?

Oh, and thanks for the clarification and help everyone! I hope this will prove useful to quite a few beginners like myself .

A 40mm Vixen NPL is only £40

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/vixen-eyepieces/vixen-npl-eyepieces.html

The Vixen's resale value is going to be higher than a series 3000 plossl, so I don't think that S3k is a bargain.