Green lasers, legal?

[Andy McK]

Evening all, just a quickie.

I've been reading about the joys of using green laser pointers or similar to line up the OTA. this seemed to make alot of sense to me, being a bit miopic and 6 foot plus, I find craning my neck to line up on something, using the finderscope, plus trying to grop for the controls a bit frustrating. I seem to have a bit more success alineing my OTA just by roughly pointing the tube from the mirror end at my desired target, I then look throo a 20mm EP, and with a bit of a faff, sometimes, I get the desired result. (works really well with the moon:) )

So it seemed a good idea with a co-aligned laser, this would make the process much easier and precise. I could have a crack at M32 then.

Then I discover that this practice may be illegal. now I dont get much airtraffic over my house, but from time to time, trans atlantic airtraffic does go over (and occationally the ISS) so long story short.

Green lasers, yes or no?

Yours,

Dr No

Port Talbot

()

[wizardaire]

yes as long as they are 1mw in the uk, i bought 2 off amazon and they are great, you can get 5mw and over but they are not very safe as in eye contact and planes. HTH

[Andy McK]

1 mw? ok noted. I dont want to cut planes in half, I'll have a quick look on *bay

Many thanks..

[wizardaire]

eBay - The UK's Online Marketplace

[Dave Dubya]

Bear in the mind the quality of these star pointers often varies greatly. I know people who have bought them from the same retailer and they range from being barely visible to lightsabre brightness.

In the UK, Class 2 is the maximum allowed for a laser pointer. Although I believe the law is somewhat sketchy as the H&S regulation for laser pointers only relates to them being used in places someone comes in contact with indoor laser light.

...which is how one can buy lasers above Class 2 from reputable retailers even thought it's technically illegal to sell them to the general public - in particular as star pointers.

[JimStan]

We have a professional pilot, and an air traffic controller in our astro club, and the feelings run loud and strong concerning these devices. The chinese devices are significantly brighter than the "certified" units from such dealers as Celestron, so there is a possibility that they are stronger than 5mw ( U.S. limit ) . However, our members who do have the chinese devices are very careful of where they point the things, and if there is any sign of aircraft even remotely approaching the beam, they turn them off!

I would find it hard to believe that any laser that can be held in the hand would present a strong enough beam to disrupt the vision of a pilot flying overhead at several thousand feet in the air !

As to whether they actually are dangerous, or illegal, there has NOT been a single documented case of a pilot loosing the ability to fly an airplane over the field occupied by amateur astronomers using green lasers to aim their telescopes, and anybody who is purposefully aiming such devices into the cockpit of a landing aircraft from the end of a runway, is just plain STUPID ! ! ! There is a WORLD of difference between the two situations.

Jim S.

[Skylook123]

Presented without comment. A member of our astronomy club posted this note today on our list server. It is an excerpt from an FAA bulletin and is a reminder that laser incidents involving aircraft are on the increase.

US FAA Creates New Laser Webpage

In a continuing effort to combat the growing problem of lasers directed at aircraft, the US FAA has created a new website to make it easier for pilots and the public to report laser incidents and obtain information on the subject. The website, which can be found at

www.faa.gov/go/laserinfo

collects a wide array of laser information into one location. It includes links for reporting laser incidents, laser statistics, FAA press releases, and FAA research on the dangers lasers can pose to pilots, as well as downloadable videos.

Laser event reports have increased steadily since the FAA created a formal reporting system in 2005 to collect information from pilots. Reports rose from nearly 300 in 2005 to 1,527 in 2009 and 2,836 in 2010.

A follow-on note: I read a few days ago that the 2010 level was exceeded by October of this year.

[wizardaire]

Two teenagers were sentenced to four months in jail for a “stupid extremely dangerous” lasing of a police helicopter over north Hull.

if used wrong they ARE dangerous

[todd8137]

i have 2, a 1mw one rubbish if its a clear night does not work well,on the other hand the 25mw one ,pot modded is crazy and bright and burns holes in paper i only use it with extreme caution it came with a built in rechargeable batt and charger the otheres seem to gobble batts and if used right cause no hassle, its only a fool that points them at planes ect

[cantab]

I would find it hard to believe that any laser that can be held in the hand would present a strong enough beam to disrupt the vision of a pilot flying overhead at several thousand feet in the air !

A 5 mW laser can be noticed and distracting out to about a couple of miles. A high-power 500 mW laser can cause serious glare to the same distance, stopping the pilot seeing much else, and can be noticed from over 20 miles away.

One retailer of high-powered lasers not only proudly promotes their range, but evidently fails to see any irony in trumpeting that their devices are made of "aircraft grade" aluminium.

While I don't believe accidentally illuminating an aircraft with your laser is illegal (and the super-powerful ones are probably too bright for astronomy use), I wouldn't want to end up having to defend myself in court against a prosecution charging I had targeted the plane deliberately.

[cabby]

I thought about getting one to help me pinpoint. Did a bit of research and found out all the down sides and decided not to. I would be using the scope with my 8yr old son and I just know he'd think it was a light saber!!, and we are also in a stacking area for various airports and that wouldn't go down to well.

[keithatrochdale]

As usual it is a number of idiots causing problems, we will never get rid of them unfortunately.

Looking at the US FAA site mentioned, it is clear that a 'normal' person is not what they are looking for, so if used with care there should not be a problem, I quote;

The FAA is working with law enforcement agencies across the country to pursue monetary civil penalties against individuals who purposely try to interfere with a flight crew by aiming a laser into an aircraft cockpit.

[JB80]

I would find it hard to believe that any laser that can be held in the hand would present a strong enough beam to disrupt the vision of a pilot flying overhead at several thousand feet in the air !

There a plenty of vids around that show what it's like for pilots.

[umadog]

Laser pointers aren't really ideal for pointing a telescope. They consume a lot of batteries, the bright beam is antisocial if you're at a dark site observing with others (they often banned for this reason), and they cease to work in cold conditions. Just buy a Telrad. If you crouch on the floor you can look through it without hurting your back or neck.

[laser_jock99]

There a plenty of vids around that show what it's like for pilots.

....mmm nearly cut the plane in half.

[hemihaggis]

this topic has been discussed and argued over several times on the forum ... do we have to go through it again

[danielrigano]

Over 5mw laser is forbidden in the US.

[JimStan]

" Just buy a Telrad. If you crouch on the floor you can look through it without hurting your back or neck. "

Well, since some have chosen to disagree with a point I have tried to make, I am going to respectfully disagree with this point. The reason I use a green laser is because due to an unfortunate automobile accident which nearly took my life, I live with a broken neck ( fused C1-C2 Vertebrae ). Not only does it hurt to try to bend my neck at some of the angles required to look through a finder scope, it is quite impossible ! I can use a 90 degree finder with some discomfort, but have never found it as easy to orient myself with one of those as it is to just directly gaze upward at the sky, and see where the scope is pointed by following the green line up to the desired object.

If the desired object is higher up than about 45 or 50 degrees, it is almost impossible to locate it using a telrad or red dot type spotter, if you have limited rotation of your head.

My lasers have momentary contact on/off switches, and it would have to be a deliberate and purposeful action on my part to illuminate the cockpit of an airplane with one of them. So until I hear that green lasers are expressly forbidden for ANY purpose, I will continue using it wisely and carefully.

Jim S.

[Alma]

A

While I don't believe accidentally illuminating an aircraft with your laser is illegal ........I wouldn't want to end up having to defend myself in court against a prosecution charging I had targeted the plane deliberately.

Actually, I believe it IS illegal in the UK. The law governing laser beaming of an aircraft appears to be worded in such a way that there doesn't have to be any intent on behalf of the perpetrator. So, a careless user is just as likely to be prosecuted as any hooligan who deliberately points a laser in the direction of an aircraft, although one would hope any sentence handed down would be more lenient.

[keithatrochdale]

Try a bit of light reading from the CAA:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP736.PDF

[Woking]

Hi Andy McK

Laser pointers are an emotive subject, so would recommend a Search of the forum for " green laser", you will get all the info you need;)

[UnderTheRain]

If you want to avoid planes above then you can check over at Flightradar24.com - Live Flight Tracker! in real time to make sure there are no big planes overhead they also have an android app for your phone (not sure about iphones) so you can check when your out and about observing. With regards to the power of lasers anything strong enough to burn through paper should be seriously avoided lasers even 1mw can cause eye damaged if used incorrectly.

Brian

[TheThing]

...even 1mw can cause eye damaged if used incorrectly.

Brian

Indeed! I accidentally shone a laser collimator in my eye at SGL5 (buying it and turned it on thinking it was pointed away from me at the side of a tent! I am the clumsiest person you will ever meet!)

It didn't hurt, but it was extremely bright and loused up my vision through that eye for the rest of the day. Luckily, it cleared up by nightfall.

A subsequent eye test has revealed extreme sensitivity to light. I didn't mention my accident to the opthalamist at the time, but one wonders if it is connected?

As ever though, I think that the members of SGL are sufficiently careful and intelligent to not mis-use their equipment, whatever it is (although I do appear to be the exception to prove the rule!)

[Dave Dubya]

Unless you're using lasers above Class 2, generally your blink reflex will be fast enough to limit the effects of the beam.

[UnderTheRain]

Indeed just so long as its not viewed directly through a magnifying lens (i.e. A telescope) not that anyone would be that dumb I would hope. As for the user with the 25mw thats Class 3 and could damage a pilots vision permanently if shone at a plane so it's not advisable to shine these up in the air or indeed where other people might be. Blink rate won't be quick enough at that power level.

A study done by researchers at the UASC showed that the blink rate of subjects exposed to class 2 lasers only triggered in 15.7% to 28.1% of test subjects depending upon the frequency of the beam and ambient light levels. Lasers have become more common in our everyday lives but we still need to take care even at supposed "safe" power levels.

And some of the cheap overpowered green lasers have been shown to be missing an IR filter so if used in doors you could be cooking your eyes with reflected IR which is beyond the range of your blink response and the first thing you would know about it is when the cataracts appear.

Personally for use outside I would stick with 1 mw and use it sparingly use something like flightradar24 to double check and not at all if anywhere near an airport. I live in a fairly rural area at least an hours drive away from any major airports and having spent some time on flightradar24 I discovered that the main transatlantic air corridor seems to be right over head and as such I won't use a pointer at all.

Just spending this summer browsing upwards with the naked eye where I live I've spotted up to 8 planes in view at 1 time.

Brian