Is it worth buying a cheap telescope in London?

[harry66]

Hi,

First timer here so apologies if this question has been answered to death.

My 7 year old son has been hassling me for a telescope for over a year now. He is seriously interested in astronomy - he watched the stargazing live show on the beeb last year intently. He also regularly gets astronomy / stargazing books from the library. Loves watching the 'Wonders of the Solar system' blu-ray and one of this fave books in the title of the same name.

The thing is we live in Redbridge (east London) so there is a lot of light pollution. Also, the maximum I could probably spend on a telescope is around £200-£250. And it would have to be a Computerised / Goto telescope as I really don't have the time and patience to help him locates stars/planets etc with a manual telescope.

My question is this: Would a Goto type telescope in the £200-£250 range allow us to see much - given that we live in an area of light pollution? Pretty sure he would expect to see a few planets etc in reasonable detail - otherwise he would very disappointed.

Thanks in advance for any replies!

[umadog]

You will see more with a bigger telescope and adding Goto increases the price so means you need to settle for a smaller telescope.

We often recommend Dobsonian telescopes (Newtonian reflectors on an alt/az mount) to beginners. However your case is a little different since you'd be buying it for quite a young child, not yourself. A Newtonian needs a little care, as it needs to be aligned and so forth. If you don't have the inclination to help under the stars then I doubt you'd want to spend time learning to align the scope. The alternative is something like an SCT or a Maksutov, which often come with GoTo.

My concern is that you may end up with an expensive paperweight, since his expectations may not match what he will see. For example, Jupiter and its moons would look similar to this in a smaller scope: http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/jupitermoons20050513composite.gif

Do you think he'll be happy with that? You will see Saturn's rings but no detail on the surface. Saturn won't be visible at a reasonable hour for a few months yet.

Perhaps you should start out by taking him to a viewing night at a local astro club. See how he finds the views and take it from there.

[John]

My concern is that you may end up with an expensive paperweight, since his expectations may not match what he will see. For example, Jupiter and its moons would look similar to this in a smaller scope: http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/jupitermoons20050513composite.gif

That would be my concern too. Just looking through a telescope takes some practice - I've shown children around the age of your son the view through a scope and most of the time they found it very difficult to see anything at all. The exception was the moon viewed with a low power eyepiece where the larger eye lens helped them see something at least.

Even computerised telescopes take time and patience to setup use - just look at some of the posts on here from folks struggling to get their GOTO scopes to operate !.

My kids are in their late teens now and take a look through my scopes occasionally. Most of the time they are not too impressed with what I am finding exciting

[Stephen]

Re: light pollution, could do worse than giving these guys a shout

BSIA News

Hard core astronomers

[ronin]

Look up the Baker Street Irregular Astronomers (BSIA) and get along to one of their monthly gatherings. They meet in Regents Park.

I would expect a few small scopes to be there as they are easy to transport, almost essential in London.

As they may meet the first Monday/Tuesday/.... in the month I suspect you will have to get along this week.

As to goto options for the budget, the one that comes to mind is the Meade ETX80. Somewhere around £240 (Ace Cameras at Bristol area).The ETX80 is a refractor and a wide field one, makes locating anything (including the alignmnet stars) easier as you will simply have more in the field of view. Few scope shops around the London area.

If he can get by without the goto then still in the refractor line how about the Opticstar 80mm f/7.5 scope. I am sticking to refractors as they are robust and maintenace free. You would ned a mount, probably best in Alt/Az for ease of use but he might get the idea of an equitorial easier then you think.

Quick check: Next meeting is Oct 26, apparently they have changed from start of month to end of month meetings. So about 3 weeks to prepare.

[umadog]

Just to follow up on what we've said. The moon is impressive for pretty much everyone. You will actually see craters and mountain ranges. Most people are wowed by Saturn's rings and Jupiter. Mars isn't impressive unless it's close to Earth when you're viewing it. Neptune and Uranus will not be interesting unless you're a hard-core observer. Venus and Mercury exhibit phases like our moon but no surface detail.

Other than planets, most so-called "deep space objects" are subtle sights in a smaller telescope, especially from somewhere with light pollution. The kick comes from knowing what you're looking at. The objects are usually at least thousands of light years away (in the case of most nebulae) and millions to tens of millions of light years away in the case of galaxies. They're also very large. The Orion Nebula, a bright and common target for a small telescope, is 12 light years across. To a small child this abstract thrill may be lost.

My interest in astronomy began at his age and I even have "log book entries" from age 8 or 9. I looked back at them: perhaps what drove me will help you. It seems that I was most interested in identifying constellations. That was challenging and nobody could really help me with it so it occupied quite a lot of time. I was very happy to have found the Orion nebula with binoculars whilst on a trip to Devon. A lunar eclipse *really* grabbed my attention. I didn't want binoculars because I thought a telescope would show me more. However, it wasn't until I was about 13 that I could really use a telescope and it was at that age that I got a usable 60 mm refractor. Previously I wasted time with "toy" telescopes that showed me less than the binoculars I foolishly discarded. I think if I had someone to show me what the binoculars could do, then I'd have taken to them more.

Don't buy a telescope. Even to use the GoTo you will need to know the constellations well enough to find the bright guide-stars it needs for calibration. Buy books. Get him locating the constellations. "Find the Constellations" by HA Rey is a classic. You can do that together. Get some binoculars and find the brighter objects. Maybe put them on a tripod. Go on a trip the countryside to see the stars under dark skies.

[ronin]

Meades don't require you to be able to identify a star or constellation. They operate from a list that should be visible at the date and time supplied and that are also to "only" bright star in the area.

In effect put in a long focal length eyepiece, get it level and aiming North and when it goes to the first alignment star it should be the bright one in the field of view. You simply centre the bright one. You don't need to know it or the constellation.

A 7 year old can work out Polaris, also dads are there to help, and a simple eyepiece bubble level takes care of the rest.

Thats why I suggested it.

[great_bear]

First timer here so apologies if this question has been answered to death.

For every person who asks, the answer tends to be slightly different and personalised, so there's no need to hold back with any question you might have.

My question is this: Would a Goto type telescope in the £200-£250 range allow us to see much?

No. Not really.

You live about three miles from me. A small go-to telescope in this area will allow you to see a couple of clusters, one or two nebulae, the rings of Saturn, the two main belts of Jupiter and that's about it.

The moon however, will look great - it always does - and there's no shortage of open clusters and double-stars to see - so a smallish refractor on a manual Alt Azimuth mount can be an exciting item - so long as expectations are managed.

it would have to be a Computerised / Goto telescope as I really don't have the time and patience to help him locates stars/planets etc with a manual telescope.

You'll have even less patience with a troublesome go-to telescope. They require considerable competence to set up, to use, and to diagnose the misalignment and mechanical problems which crop up regularly. You really, really, don't want to leave a child with such an intimidating system. A manual mount is the only way to go with a young child as the owner/operator.

[harry66]

Wow - what a response!

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

I have discovered a couple of astronomy clubs relatively close by...

The Loughton AS actually has a kids night every fortnight - so hopefully take him to the next one.

Also, a school in Epping may have a kids Astronomy club - so going to contact them.

I have also ordered Bresser Cobra 7x50 binocular which was going cheap online - which should keep us going until we decide to buy a telescope.

great_bear - do you live in a standard terraced street with houses all around or are you a bit more isolated? Because I think my son would be extremely happy if we get to see what you can see. He is genuinely interested in this stuff - he proudly tells people he is going to be an Astro physicist when he grows up - been saying that for nearly a year now!

I have a confession to make that I did buy him a 2nd hand Skywatcher Explorer 130M Motorised EQ2 Telescope last year - but I was very busy at work and could not get the motorised mount to work properly. Apart from the moon and some bright blur (which according to google sky could have been Saturn) I did not have much success with it. And the missus thought it took up too much space in the living room so I sold it off again.

Hence the interest in a Goto device and hopefully something a bit easier to fold and put away.

Thanks again for all the replies.

I will hang fire on buying a telescope until we have been to the local club etc.

Will hopefully pick your brains again when the time comes.

Cheers!

[onesmallstep]

Sounds like you have a Brian Cox / Chris Lintott in the making there. Visiting the clubs is a very good idea as you and your son can try out various scopes and see which one suits. The 'best' telescope is the one that he will actually use.

[Moonshane]

I'd imagine the key thing with younger children is being involved in it all. if they feel that they are working the scope and finding things then the interest will remain.

Looking naked eye at constellations at a darker site will possibly benefit you both and in that situation binoculars might be a good idea, although I'd favour a small refractor on an alt-az mount.

from light polluted skies then as others say there's a limit amount you can see but double stars would be relatively unaffected as will planets and the moon.

the scope you had is actually a very able scope and that sort of thing should be fine. make sure any scope is well cooled (for at least half an hour or so) before starting and I'd suggest buying a red dot finder / telrad as this will help to position to scope initially.

don't worry about the motors as manual operation of that sort of scope is simple.

go to a meeting and get an idea of what he prefers and involve in the process and he will then 'own it'.

good luck.

[umadog]

A real dark sky is a very dramatic sight and it's hard not be drawn in, even if you aren't particularly interested in astronomy. It's not just a matter of there being "more stars." In summer, the milky way blazes overhead and is capable of casting a shadow. You can even read large-print by starlight. This would be unforgettable for your son. It's well worth it.

Ask the local clubs to give you ideas where you could go. You can make a weekend out of it. You could even head to the south of France. One of our members here owns an astronomy guest house, so you'd have someone on-site to show you stuff with a telescope.

[great_bear]

great_bear - do you live in a standard terraced street with houses all around or are you a bit more isolated? Because I think my son would be extremely happy if we get to see what you can see.

I live in a standard Victorian terrace in Walthamstow, albeit close to the reservoir, which I suspect limits the light pollution somewhat. I have an 80mm spotting scope, a 130P similar in some ways to the 130 you had, a 150/F8 and also a 180/F15

With all scopes - including the 130 - it does take a little time to learn how to get the best views - which is why Saturn was a blur for you.

I'm happy to get any of these scopes out on a night - the smaller ones are quicker to use. I know that galaxies and nebula are off the menu, but that doesn't bother me since I primarilly look at moon and planets and open clusters in-between. The galaxies and other faint-fuzzies are my treat whilst camping and at star parties.

Hope that helps

[Ags]

A small telescope (maksutov type for example) would show great detail on Jupiter, Saturm, Mars and the Moon, even in a city. These targets are also not affected by light pollution. And they are bright and do not need goto to find them - they are the brightest stuff in the sky. Get outside tonight and see if you can see a very bright star more or less to the south - that is Jupiter.

[harry66]

I took my son to the Loughton Astronomical Society when they had an open evening during the recent meteor shower.

Unfortunately, it was cloudy so we did not get to see any meteors.

However, the guys (and gal) where very welcoming and friendly. They kept my 6yr old informed and occupied whilst I picked some brains.

I have also been doing some reading and trying to understand the differences etc and have a shortlist of GOTOs as follows:

Celestron NexStar 90 SLT Mak

Celestron LCM 114 Computerised Newtonian Reflector

Celestron 31145 NexStar 130 SLT

Skywatcher Explorer 130P SynScan

Meade ETX80

From a practical point of view, I like the ETX80 as it can be packed down into a backpack. Storage space is at a premium at my house and therefore the size of the scope + tripod etc is important.

However, I understand that the ETX80 light gathering ability is limited by the 80mm aperture meaning we wont be able to see fainter objects. Because of the background light pollution I am assuming that aperture size should be a high priority for me.

Is this right or have I misunderstood?

If this is the case, I might be able to stretch the budget to a 2nd hand ETX90 - would this be the better option for me?

Thanks!

[angusb1]

I agree that at 7 your son is likely to get a lot out of his telescope. I got a 60mm refractor for christmas when I was 7 and although all I ever could find with it was the moon when I was that age I spent a lot of happy hours looking at the moon through it and it sparked a lifelong interest in astronomy. I found that my refractor was better than the newtonian my dad borrowed at around the same time because it went between my eye and what I was looking at so I could adjust it easily to find what I wanted to look at.

Definately a good idea to go along to the local astro society so he can try a few out though.

[harry66]

Shortly after posting the above I spotted a 2nd hand Skywatcher Syncan 127 AZ Goto, online at a camera shop.

After much reading on these forums, I could see a lot of recommendations for this model so I ordered it.

I will post back my experience once I have up and running!

[smudgeball]

Hi

It's a really good scope and one that I nearly purchased.

Lot's of people on here with them.

Hope you got it for a bargain price

Neil

[Gonzo]

I live in Kingston and obviously the light pollution is there, however on a very good night (no clouds) I can see quite a lot with the Megrez 72. Can't wait 'til I take it with to Germany this coming Christmas.

[harry66]

Hi

Hope you got it for a bargain price

Neil

£290 inc courier

[GarethA]

Hi "harry66"!

I have some experience of scopes +light pollution and have a boy of the same age.

For a first scope I really wouldn't waste money on 'GOTO'.

I know it sounds hard but the main thing he's going to be interested in are planets and they really aren't too tricky to find. If you have a PC use Stellarium.

Re scopes - newtonions (like you used to have) are quite hard for kids to look through most of the time - refractors are much easier for 7 year olds!

For 200 quid I'd get a 102 refractor on an alt-az mount like this

or for 250 I'd get a bigger one!

Like this

Cheers

Gareth

[Hugh88]

Just wanted to say that the view from my new Skywatcher heritage 130p looks amazing similar to the one umadog posted.

That is using a 10mm eyepiece with a 2x barlow.

[Mike Hackenbacker]

i live in london and bought a decent telescope nexstar 4se,all of my shots were taken in my backgarden,there are a few darkspots aound london like tattenham corner by epsom racecourse if you live in the south of london not sure about any other parts.since its kingston you live try heading towards esher by sandown racecourse some good dark spots around there..

the first shot of the pliades shot with dslr camer and jupiter with my samsung compac camera.