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Where next after the MN190 ?

Catanonia

By Catanonia
in Imaging - Discussion

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Grinde

Grinde

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I'm thinking the same things, but the 190MN will be very hard to replace, especially with the price / image quality. I think I want to go a little bit longer in focallength, but without getting a slow scope... I was very close to buying a used AG12, which seems to be a dreamscope, although you'll get spikes, & not much of an increase in focallength, but the resolution thanks to large aparture seems fantastic & so it the speed f/3.8.

But the main reason I'm looking for replacement in the future, is that sometime I'll move to a fullformat 35mm sensor, which I've heard the 190MN won't support. But has anybody actually tried this? I'm thinking about borrowing a friends Canon 5d mk2 & give it a shot, checking for egde distortions & illumination.

So I'm thinking, either the AG range, or a f/4-f/5ish quality newtonian & add a wynne corrector, since I've seen fantastic results of those with fullformat cameras.

But I'm saying it again, the 190MN is almost impossible to replace with the same bang for the buck!

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Catanonia

Catanonia

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But I'm saying it again, the 190MN is almost impossible to replace with the same bang for the buck!

Yes even for an extra £3000 it is very hard to replace.

I too am leaning towards the AG range and an AG12, would be worth the money with a decent corrector added to it.

Talking about the next 12 - 18 months away here :)

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Catanonia

Catanonia

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I'd say, spend the money on a new higher quality mount, then if you decide to replace the scope, you won't have fear's of the mount failing to hold the weight. Also might give you better stability and improved tracking???

Has also crossed my mind. The NEQ6 Pro I have is pretty good and would probably hold an AG10 at a push especially whilst OAG.

Not got any guiding or stability issues at the moment, but then the MN190 is a small ish scope.

I am holding out for the new Skywatcher EQ7/8 or whateever they call it. That should fit the timeframe of 12 - 18months I hope :)

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Catanonia

Catanonia

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Ok been looking for the last hour over reviews on the Orion AG12...

Drool..... I know Mr Shah has one, must pay him a visit sometime soon, if he'll let me.

Built in Wayne corrector and it will fit on a NEQ6Pro mount if that is all you mount with it :) OAG anyone :icon_scratch:

So a snip at about 6k + vat..

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Grinde

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The AGs come with a dedicated corrector as standard, don't they?

Olly

Yup, out of the box they provide a flat color corrected field for up to 50mm square sensors, if I my memory is up to date...

You can buy those correctors to fit on other newtons too, which will be cheaper & still produce fantastic results. ASA sell wynne & keller correctors seperately, not sure if OOUK does...

Replacing a NEQ6 will probably be the same thing as replacing the 190MN, it'll be hard to find a solution that's so effective & cheap(ish) ... buying a 10 times more expensive mount like the paramount me won't give you a 10 times better image, same as a scope twice as expensive than the 190MN will have a hard time beating it.

Johnh is lugging a 14" newton on a EQ6, imaging at less than 1"/pixel with some of the best results I've ever seen.

Moving past the 190MN/EQ6 domain will probably be an expensive story I'm afraid...

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Catanonia

Catanonia

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Moving past the 190MN/EQ6 domain will probably be an expensive story I'm afraid...

Yup, desperately trying to find that ellusive middle ground between cheap ish (£2k scope and mount) and expensive (30k scope and mount)

The AG12 seems to fit the bill nicely and will allow me to keep the NEQ6 Pro so only the cost of the OTA needed at around 6.5k

Nice middle ground.

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Grinde

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The AG12 would be on top of my list too, but looking at cheaper alternatives, buying a quality 300mm f/4 carbontube newtonian from Orion Optics (£2350) and slapping a wynne corrector (€850) on it, which would bring it to f/3.8, same as ag12, & gives a 50mm corrected imaging circle... Although it needs a 3" focuser, but Orion Optics could fit one of those for an extra charge & also install a slightly bigger secondary mirror to reduce vignetting even further.

Éder Iván from Hungary (I think?) uses a homebuilt newtonian with primary mirror from Orion Optics, + a wynne corrector (not sure which brand)

Éder Iván - M106

Éder Iván - M45

Please mind he's "just" using a DSLR...

Seeing this really makes me want to get a fullformat camera, but that's for the future! I'll give my 190MN at least one more season, as well as my NEQ6. It's going to take a lot of saving & selling my beloved motorbikes to afford all the upgrades I'm talking about now :)

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AndyUK

AndyUK

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Cracking pics there shows what can be achieved but those diffraction spikes are truly horrible!
Hmmm, I agree, but surely the spikes must have been added in post-processing? However I wouldn't want to take the risk spending that type of money...!
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shaunster

shaunster

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Hmmm, I agree, but surely the spikes must have been added in post-processing? However I wouldn't want to take the risk spending that type of money...!

Im not sure, they look so unnatural its possible, although the newts do produce spikes so they will be present but maybe not that grotesque!

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Grinde

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Yup, the spikes are the main thing that makes me think about keeping the 190MN for good, instead of moving to rc/cassegrain/dall-kirkham scopes...

I think shooting M45 with an AG12 would show pretty similar spikes, the brighter stars, the longer spikes (at least I think so)

comparing a crop of Peter Shahs excellent image of M106 (the very same image that made me want a AG12 in the first place), you'll see Éder Iváns shot of the same area have slightly longer spikes, but also sharper details in the small galaxy. (better focus/seeing, longer spikes?) , & a slight more aggresive use of DDP, which also extends spikes... (again, that's just what I think, I might be wrong) But, not bad for a homemade scope. Since Éder Iváns scope is homemade, I think I'll send a question to OOUK asking if they use the same spider vanes for both the AG & CT series.

All my talk may sound like a bad excuse not to buy an AG12, but I'm looking hard for cheaper alternatives, so I can afford upgrading my mount too... In my opinion, Peter Shahs results with the AG12 are some of the best photos I've ever seen, so yup, it's still my dreamscope, unless SW makes a 300MN for a bargain price :)

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Catanonia

Catanonia

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Yup, the spikes are the main thing that makes me think about keeping the 190MN for good, instead of moving to rc/cassegrain/dall-kirkham scopes...

I think shooting M45 with an AG12 would show pretty similar spikes, the brighter stars, the longer spikes (at least I think so)

comparing a crop of Peter Shahs excellent image of M106 (the very same image that made me want a AG12 in the first place), you'll see Éder Iváns shot of the same area have slightly longer spikes, but also sharper details in the small galaxy. (better focus/seeing, longer spikes?) , & a slight more aggresive use of DDP, which also extends spikes... (again, that's just what I think, I might be wrong) But, not bad for a homemade scope. Since Éder Iváns scope is homemade, I think I'll send a question to OOUK asking if they use the same spider vanes for both the AG & CT series.

All my talk may sound like a bad excuse not to buy an AG12, but I'm looking hard for cheaper alternatives, so I can afford upgrading my mount too... In my opinion, Peter Shahs results with the AG12 are some of the best photos I've ever seen, so yup, it's still my dreamscope, unless SW makes a 300MN for a bargain price :icon_scratch:

Yup compare to my M106 taken in the same week as Peter but on a MN190

http://stargazerslounge.com/imaging-deep-sky/140827-changing-my-ways-14-5-hours-lrgb-m63.html

Makes you wonder whether it is worth it.

Comon Skywatcher... MN300 please :)

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ollypenrice

ollypenrice

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For me spikes need to be taken in context, twice; firstly how big is your chip? On a small chip they really can dominate excessively. Secondly, how long is your FL? If it short you will have a widefield image with lots of stars and lots of spikes. Too many? Worse, your fields of tiny stars will be tiny square stars and that really is a no-no for me. But in a close up of a galaxy at 2.5 metres the odd spike won't be a problem.

This is why I went for the Baby Q rather than the Epsilon. I could actually have had an Epsilon for less cash at the time.

Regardng cameras, if you are using a DSLR the ultra fast telescope will give you a bigger boost than you'll get using CCD because with CCD you can, at least, take longer subs. Thermal noise stops you with a DSLR which is why the only DSLR images I really admire full on are from fast astrgraphs.

Olly

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Grinde

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You will see though the spikes on Mr shah's images look OK, they blend in. Small spikes can look good. :)

Worth it or not? Your paying ££££££ for the last few % of performance really, your not going to see massive gains..

Agreed, they are more diffues & soft, but then again, the small galaxy next to the bright stars looks sharper in Éders photo, sharper image longer spikes, right? Then again, Éder shoots with a homemade scope, here's a shot from the CT series, which I see no reason that they wouldn't use the same spiders as the AG range (Still waiting for an answer from Orion Optics though).

Maximo Ruiz - NGC 7023

Maximo Ruiz - M78

Both taken with CT8 f/4.5 & a cooled Canon 50D, not sure about which type of corrector though

On the other hand, apart from being a cheaper alternative with pretty much the same optics & tube, the CT range comes without cooling-fans for the primary & a more rigid focuser (which can be added for an extra charge)

I think I'd be perfectly happy with a scope using the same optics, carbontube, & same kind of corrector, providing the same focalratio/length & imagecircle. For nearly half the price. So I'm asking the same question, is it worth the extra £££££, especially if the spidervanes are the same on the CD tubes?

I wonder if I'll need fans, since my scope will be kept either in obs (soon to be built) or a nearby storage-room

Regardng cameras, if you are using a DSLR the ultra fast telescope will give you a bigger boost than you'll get using CCD because with CCD you can, at least, take longer subs. Thermal noise stops you with a DSLR which is why the only DSLR images I really admire full on are from fast astrgraphs.

Olly

I'm using my QSI583 at the moment, & got the old Canon 50D at the moment, but my agenda is to move to 35mm fullformat in the future. Another thing, my 50D darks are close to the QSI darks, that's one of the very few perks of imaging when it's below -20C, which it usually is.

To be honest, I've been fortunate enough to enjoy spike-free imaging from the start, I personally don't like spikes that much, especially not huge ones, but feel I'd like more focallenght to go after smaller galaxies. So spike-free alternatives would be Meades acf-scopes or celestron EdgeHD, both are to slow & way to much focallength for the swedish seeing with jetstreams & all. The AG12 / CT12 looks best for my needs at the moment, not sure about expensive refractors for that job, with smaller apertures. Any ideas?

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Astroscot2

Astroscot2

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The CT scopes do come with cooling fans on the primary

http://stargazerslounge.com/members-equipment-gallery/100086-orion-ct-robh.html

Spider veins on the AG rage are a bit more beefy to account fo the large and no doubt heavy secondary mirror.

The focuser on the CT range is all right, no issues with my own so far. currently testing a corrector on tis scope.

Mark

On the other hand, apart from being a cheaper alternative with pretty much the same optics & tube, the CT range comes without cooling-fans for the primary & a more rigid focuser (which can be added for an extra charge)
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Tim

Tim

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I dont consider the quattro a step up from the MN190, something like a orion uk astrograph is what I would call the next step up. The MN190 is hard to beat and you have to spend thousdands of £££ to do it..

Yep agreed. I would really love one of the big AG16 scopes, but would require major upgrades mount wise too, and to be perfectly frank, I dont have the skies to warrant one :)

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