alan potts

6 hours ago, michael8554 said:

I don't understand this obsession with getting good star alignment and Plate Solving on a permanent imaging setup with good PA. 

Goto a star near your target, centre it with the handset, Synch, then GoTo your target. 

If you have time to image another target, just repeat the process. 

Why on earth are you worried about not being able to see Polaris? 

Forget it and get on with imaging !! 

Michael 

 

Michael,

I am struggling badly and can not find anything when slewing, with this new camera (071) the other night I was not even sure I could see Saturn when I slewed. Now this is in conjunction with not having a clue how to use the 071. People talk about Platesolve but I don't want another program to confuse me even more.

The idea of lining everything up was I guess starting in the right place so at least the scope would slew to close to the object which it doesn't at all, I don't have a finder om the telescope to look through but have managed with the guide scope and then a quick 6-10 secs with the Canon, this has worked well. I do not use a handset as even with this I was getting bad results, I now use EQdir.  So I am stripping off all the newly bought gear and going back to where I was 3 weeks back, I was happy then, which I am far from now. Once and if I can get that to work I may try the 071again, if not I will sling it in the cupboard with other unwanted item, I don't believe in this return to the seller lark, it is not fair on them. I have 4 Canon bodies that I understand inside out I can always mod one of these for a better image over the 40D.

Alan

10 hours ago, JamesF said:

Correct polar alignment doesn't mean that the system has any idea where the telescope is actually pointing, just where the polar axis is pointing.  And, in fact, even if you have perfect polar alignment and the telescope is pointing at the celestial pole, that still doesn't mean that slewing anywhere else will be accurate.

Perhaps it might help to have a look at AstroTortilla?  I believe it can work in conjunction with APT.  It should be able to grab a frame and then plate solve to find out exactly where the telescope is pointing.

James

A kind suggestion James but I do not need another program to get confused over. People tell me that the scope needs to point toward the polar axis when PA is right for pointing to be accurate at the start of play, it makes sense to me.

Alan

9 hours ago, Hughsie said:

Hi Alan,

I could be going off at a tangent here, but if you are using APT and platesolving, have you adjusted the focal length of your scope in the APT settings to take into account the reducer as this will impact the FoV and accuracy. Your new F/L will be the actual F/L of your scope multiplied by the effect of the reducer say 0.8x. Mine is 710mm x 0.8 = 568mm. 

You then store the adjusted F/L in the Tools tab (in my case 568mm) At the bottom you will see an object calculator where you can select your camera type and populate your F/L then hit recalc.

Apologies if I’m wildly off the beaten track with this suggestion and its completely unrelated.

 

John

I am using APT at the moment but not Plate Solving, though the software is on the laptop but not installed. I am going back to absolute basics and stripping the rig of the duel scope set-up and just have one. I really feel I set everything up square flat and good and tight but this has in my view caused the problems. It is ever since I turned the mounting plate 90degrees and put the APM duel bar on that the problem arose.

I will report back as we seem to be in a another spell of clear weather, shame this can't be done in the day.

Alan

6 hours ago, stash_old said:

Epoch - used to calculate the coordinates (RA/DEC) in space of an object or point using a reference point based on date/time. So Epoch J2000  - J = Julian like the Julian Date, 2000 refers to the Jan 2000 at 12.00am. This is then used in a calculation with now date/time to produce RA/DEC coordinates of an object. There are others JNOW for example.

Anyway if one piece of software uses a given coordinate it needs to know what the base (Epoch) is else if it uses that info and assumes another Epoch then values produced are different. 

So as I understand it if CDC uses J2000 and EQMOD / APT uses JNOW  outcomes will be different IF they do calculations on the RA/DEC passed from CDC. In the set up on all three there is a tick box to set up which Epoch they are using - they should be the samebe it JNOW or J2000 (APT will convert see below )

Same goes for your location (LAT/LONG) altitute above sea level and PC Date/Time must be spot on.

If something needs changing as its wrong I am sure someone will point it out 🙂

I did say a long shot 🙂

 

Well I don't recall ever seeing these screen but I best bring the laptop in and sit an try and at least check this, I am sure I don't remember changing anything like this, but that will not mean I haven't. I started a thread last night about scope alignment with the PA, it seems some way out. I am stripping the scopes off today and going back to basics as this seems a sensible thing to do. All problems seem to have come from trying a duel rig, even though I am sure I set it up as good as the equipment would allow. None of it was cheap and cheerful gear and all seemed solid and well made.

Many thanks for taking the time to do this for me,

Alan.

I feel I have a problem here and I am not sure how it came about as a few weeks back things worked OK.

Tonight in a effort to sort things out I put the Canon back on with a reducer giving about a 2 degree field by something over 1,25 degree, so a fair field of view. Even though the mount is according to software about 1arc min from PA and even the polar scope tells me its in about the right place pointing is utterly terrible.

I tried to get polaris into the camera field of view and could not, this to me seems to suggest something is rather wrong, in this area the Pole stsr is easy enough to see and at o point could make it appear on the screen.

The question is how does one readjust an AZ EQ 6's scope puck or saddle or what ever its called, if indeed you can, or do you shim the scope.

I am so fed up that until I can at least get this right I am doing nothing with the new camera which at the moment I am not happy with anyway.

Alan

4 hours ago, stash_old said:

A long shot but have you checked that EQMOD/CDC/etc are all using the same EPOCH - if one is using J2000 and another JNOW it does some funny things and PS helps but will not cure the problem nor will EQMOD alignment points. 

Just a thought 🙂

Plus have you ticked the "Save on Park" for alignment points else yours data will by 0 on startup.

 

Well it is very kid of you to come up with something different but I am sorry to say I don't have the first idea what you mean (Epoch, J20000 etc), any chance of being a bit more simple for me.   I have ticked Save on Park again, it had become unticked. The trouble is I have not been able to re-align with the new camera and not really being very sure of where I am. I have the Canon back on for tonight to do just that, a few weeks ago  all was well then the wheels came off.

Alan

OK there may well be a few faults here and there but you have got to say for imaging 3.5M of F/L which is beyond many, it is a very good result, this the first effort too.

Alan

Wonder ful shaot there, I think it's very nice. When I see this It always reminds me of Yes with Rick Wakeman playing all those keyboards around him.

4 minutes ago, bottletopburly said:

 Hardest part was getting correct debayer setting in regim right  ,bit of trial and error but I find it stacks well and adding data to previous data is really simple , startools I find for me is a lot easier  than ps .

With me it is just I have used PS going back a long time, it is difficult to pick up but I struggle over what most consider easy, I am not what you would call IT Savvy, trying hard to come to terms with my new 071 at the moment. Everybody is being kind and trying to help but I keep messing things up, can't get the dam mount to point int he right place either, why does life have to be so dam difficult.

Alan

The biggest trouble is all images on here or on the Net will have been taken with cameras and they will always in even half capable hands show more detail and colour that through an eyepiece. Then of course it depends on which eyepieces you are using as to how sharp an image you see in the conditions, but most eyepieces are good in the centre if only reasonable at the edges.  I have the scope you talk of and I can say it give top class views of all planets for the money, it may well be not as good as a 150mm APO refractor but it comes close enough. If planets are what you want to look at then there are not many better options to choose from.

But beware your views even with the best eyepieces will not compare with photography as a camera can record things our eyes can't see due to stacking of many shots.

Alan

Now that looks nice, sort of make me want to set one of my 300mm Canon lenses up on the mount, no really bright stars so maybe the it won't look too bad stopped down from wide open. Really an eye opener reading some of these shots people take, I thought there was only really DSS and PS for process with.

Alan

10 hours ago, vlaiv said:

Yes, this part confused me and that is why I suggested attaching one of your subs. Decent stretch - either by capture application as a preview or in PS or similar should show plenty of stars in the background and any captured nebulosity or glob/galaxy - what ever you were after. If you missed your target, then it will obviously not show, but star field should show none the less.

Oh there were plenty of stars but it was not where I thought the telescope was pointing and no nebulosity. The odd thing was in the stretch every thing in Levels was so much different, I have never seen a histogram like it, everything was to the right, which is unusual, I will see if I can get the sub onto this computer and post it for you, I have no home network out in the garden, it's too far from the house.

Alan

46 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

 

I was referring to this in fact. I have heard people having trouble using APT with dedicated astro cameras once they switch from DSLRs. I have no doubt that APT works good for DSLR type devices but those occasional complaints suggest that it's not geared towards usage with dedicated astro cameras.

It might be as simple as already pointed out by @Laurin Dave and @david_taurus83 - fact that auto stretch works differently with ASCOM than with DSLR in APT. If not properly auto stretched you will just see black sky with odd bright star here and there.

As for adjusting workflow - I would start by looking at maybe different capture software if you can't get APT to play ball with ASCOM based camera - there is a free software ("on the rise" - there is even a thread named like that) that has quite a lot features and people give favorable reviews of it - it's called NINA, and here is thread about it:

You can also give SGP lite a go as it is free (and limited) version?

Firstly let me say I have read many many of your posts and feel you know what your talking about, I can't say I always understand what you write but I read anyway. As you rightly state here I see a black sky with the odd bright star at least showing it's working. Even after a bit of a half hearted stretch in PS it didn't look a whole lot better.

 I am open to try different software, it was just maybe me being pigheaded not wanting to move away from something I thought I knew fairly well, I.E. APT. I did try Sharpcap but this in the short term just confused me, which in itself is fairly easy to do. And do have ASI own software, both these though I feel are squared at planetary imaging, though I'm sure could be used.

As storms are the mode of the day after about 20 nights clear, I will give this a read.

Thank you for posting.

Alan

20 minutes ago, pete_l said:

I would suggest getting back to basics.

Take the camera off the telescope and see that you can actually get a light frame out of it. Cover it and make sure it goes dark.
After that, cover the sensor with a piece of foil held on by an elastic band. Use a pin to put a very small hole in the centre of the foil - you have now made a pinhole camera!
Try to get a coherent daylight image with that. You won't need a lens or telescope.
Once you have proved that the sensor is receiving and processing photons, put the camera back on the telescope. In daylight check you can get an image even if it is out of focus. Then cover the scope and make sure the image darkens.
Next step is to find a streetlight or the Moon and image that. Ensure that whatever finder you have is aligned with your target.
After that, aim for Jupiter - repeat as necessary.

By this point you will have built confidence that the camera does actually work. Even better! that it works with your telescope and that what you aim for is what you hit. You will also have got an idea of what gain / offset / exposure time settings are valid for starlight.

Pete,

Firstly thank-you for taking the time to type this but I know the camera works. My issues appears to be with my expectations of how well it should work, some say I need to take a different approach to work flow but so far have not said what. Maybe I should expose longer, I have dark skies, but I was lead to believe these worked better with lots of shorter exposures as opposed to longer ones.

I am having problems with pointing the telescope, in so much as it doesn't want to point where C-du-C state it is, it is infact some way from this. PA according to software is very good. So pointing should follow suite. It is also point at Polaris when parked as close  but not perfect.

Went I take a preview image I cannot see it well enough, in fact all of the images are very dark but they are images nonetheless and sharp, just nowhere near as bright as an image from my Canon after the same 3 minutes .

All I basically require is someone to walk me through what settings are required.

Alan

1 minute ago, Stub Mandrel said:

@alan potts sometimes you need someone to say  "that isn't quite good enough..." Here's another go, this time I got DSS to balance the background for me, let the blue-rich bits come out a bit better:

I have just done 4 hours on this and I was only just starting to get a hint of blue, you've done better than me there.

LP is not an issue, I am as good as anyone for this, exposure I was using 3 minute, largely due to many saying they worked better with more but shorter exposures, Can you enlarge on change work flow, surely they still require stacking with darks etc and then stretching in PS or simialr program.

Alan

34 minutes ago, Laurin Dave said:

Alan

Another thought...  Given that you've changed the camera how close to focus are you..  maybe that's what you cant see anything. Have you got both the 16.5mm and 21mm spacers on the ASI071 to replicate the DSLR back focus?  (Assuming you haven't changed the focus from when it was ok with DSLR) 

Dave

 

 

Dont worry Dave what little I had was at least sharp, it's gain is the issue, now I see how to change it. The sort of standard 90 setting is well down on the sider, I wonder if this is geared at Planetary, all the dam software seems to be, Sharpcap, even their own seems to point this way. When you open anything up and the first slide you lay eyes on is in Milli/sec's I don't thing DSO's springs to mind. Can be adjusted though, need to play a bit I think, just disappointed yet another thing described as EASY.

Alan

40 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

Why not posting a single light sub so we can have a look what you are dealing with?

It might be that everything is fine and it is due to software that you are not seeing what you are expecting to see (different workflow to DSLR).

Thanks for the offer Vlaiv, there was nothing much to stretch as I have had it in PS this morning, it also was not pointing at what I thought it was. This is a worrying problem, the better my PA becomes according to software the worse it points in C-du-C, don't make any sense, it is also pretty much pointing at Polaris when parked. The image issue is one of gain, now I know how to alter this I can play, though I am not remotely impressed with this camera at the moment, other than I think it's pretty.

Alan

OK it has it's faults but you have done well to get anything, it is pretty low here for and I'm a few hundred yards south of you, well done you must be pleased.

Alan

Owning a slightly smaller one I would say remover the reducer, double and triple check collimation with increasing eyepieces until at least X300 mag if you do it that way and then try again. I often top out at 500X when doing this.

Alan

2 hours ago, gorann said:

Do not give up yet Alan!

I do not think unity gain is the best setting. I run my ASI071 on gain 200, offset 30 and -15°C (lower temperatures does not help much according to the dark-current curve for this camera). I think I got the gain and offset from some thread (SGL or CN) but cannot remeber where (but I am sure I did not just guess). I use ASICAP (ASI's own capture program) to run the camera. Depending on target I expose between 2 and 10 min. I have made a library of master darks to match the gain, offset, temperature and exposure times (another reason to stick to the same settings except for a few different exposure times). I am quite pleased with the results so far - considerably better than my Canon 60Da. Here is an example (Esprit 150 on Mesu200, 42 x 5 min so 210 min):

Thanks for the encouragement Goran but I really am fed up with it, it is just one problem after another, I guess when one is a useless as me I should expect nothing more. This Unity Gain at 90 is totally ridiculous, I tried to stretch the subs this morning from last night (6), there is nothing really there at 3 minutes x6, the canon would be superb at this even at 800iso. I will look for this ASIcap, sure I saw it somewhere. I can't run at minus 15 it's too hot here, I am at zero as evening temp is still 25c. My biggest problem is a lack of IT knowledge and I can't say with trying to improve it gets easier, PS I am OK as I have had it years. I have taken the camera off the rig until I get this dam pointing sorted out, it's mental, nothing is working that 4 weeks back ran like a dream.

Alan

Hi Del,

I know nothing about planetary imaging but it appears you have taken good quality images in the past. Jupiter need I tell you is not well place at the moment but on the subject of Zwo camera, I am having a nightmare with my 071, already I feel even if it is all my fault it was a grave mistake buying it. I am sure someone can help you shortly.

16 hours ago, Allinthehead said:

Hi Alan. Sorry to hear that you're struggling with your new camera. Why don't you upload the sub here and i'll have a look for you. Keep the faith as it's a great camera and something i've learned over the last few years is that any problems are usually  my own fault and almost always something simple. 

I am sure it is my fault, when you know nothing it is so easy to make mistakes, I am not totally sure it was even pointing at M22 as the picture were so bad I don't even know if I sync'ed it correctly as point is awful and that is another thing I can't get to the bottom of. 

Alan

16 hours ago, Allinthehead said:

Hi Alan. Sorry to hear that you're struggling with your new camera. Why don't you upload the sub here and i'll have a look for you. Keep the faith as it's a great camera and something i've learned over the last few years is that any problems are usually  my own fault and almost always something simple. 

At the moment I am struggling with every aspect of AP, pointing is awful for some unknown reason which seems to get worse the better "software" tells me PA is (1 arc min check 10 times now), and that doesn't make much sense. The rig is more or less pointing towards Polaris, though it is not exactly where it should be, the telescope must not be parallel to the polar axis but I can't seem to improve this.  Images from the 071 through APT are so awful I can't really tell where it points other than I think it was Saturn but not totally sure, the scope seemed to be pointing at this.

What I may do is go back to my Canon on the main scope and put the 071 on the 70mmED which is mounted beside on a duel rig set-up then put the 071 on a separate laptop so I can see what I an getting in conjunction with something I understand, because for ease of use to a numpty like me a DSLR blows this camera out the water. After 4 nights though I am really fed up and don't have much desire to even bother.

Alan

17 hours ago, JamesF said:

I struggled to get APT to play nicely with one of my ZWO cameras.  I wonder if a change of software might help, at least in terms of proving to yourself that it does actually work.  Unfortunately I don't really know what to suggest other than perhaps Sharpcap, as I'm pretty much giving up on Windows for astronomy.

James

Hi James,

I have Sharpcap but I found that even more difficult to understand as it appeared to be tailored to Planetary imaging, however there were loads of controls to adjust. I stuck with APT basically because I thought I understood it, seems I again knew nothing, really off astronomy at the moment, I so dejected.

Alan

I don't know what this is meant to produce but I would have thought it would be better than this.

It is set on Unity Gain which I see is 90, of  what I have no idea.  This setting make it very difficult to preview to see anything even when binned and after 3 minutes exposure, which at least is now working, there is very little at all. In fact so little my Canon gave a better result in 10 seconds, clearly something is not right somewhere. I was of the opinion these were more sensitive and gave brighter results more quickly, at this rate it will need exposures of 10-15 minutes, it is that poor. After said exposure it hardly showed M22 which is a bright cluster Mag 5.3 I think, after 2 minutes with the Canon it jumps out at you andd this is about 10 years old.

Any ideas, I'm really fed and wish I had not bothered buying it at all. 4 nights lost now and not an image worth saving.

Alan

A very nice image there Mick, maybe one for me to think of when I get a bit more use to my new camera, or indeed have taken a sub, only darks so far.

Alan