Hi, Very new Hubby and Wife

[Lurker]

Hello, Everyone.

We just bought the XT8 Classic scope last week. It had 25mm Lenses that came with it, Orion.

We also ordered Orion Shorty 2x Barlow Lenses. Last night the skies was very clear. We was looking at Space from our backyard for about 3 hours, But couldn't find anything ie Nebulas, Galaxy, We even followed the maps 2 programs, Starry Night, Stellium and even used the iPhone Starmap Pro. We couldn't find it... Is there somebody that goes out to look at Space in a park/field?, Perhaps we could just tag along? We're living in Bromley, Grove Park and I have a car. When I am looking at Jupiter it looks kinda small is that normal? I thought getting the Barlow 2x Lenses would make it look bigger but it didn't perhaps tiny bigger.

Another notice, We also have EZ Finder II, I pointed my scope at Juptier and tried to configure/fiddle with it to make it point straight at jupiter, I can't even do it, It doesn't point straight at jupiter no matter what I do with it, I even put a piece of paper under it. Tried everything to make the Ez Finder II to point at Juptier, it's like 3cm above or 3cm right of Jupiter, So it's very hard to make it point excatly at Jupiter, Any ideas?

Does my XT8 Classic with 25mm Lenses/Barlow 2x Shorty can see Galaxies, Nebulas? Or do I need to get another Eyepiece to be able to see them? When I am looking at stars, All I see is dots, White dots. Is that normal?

Thanks for your help.

Mark and Charlotte.

[pvaz]

Hi Mark and Charlotte.

I have the same scope as you do and it's a very good starter scope.

It's normal not to find anything at 1st, so don't worry. The 1st step you should do is to align the EZ finder, point the scope at a distant tower top (or something else about a mile away) during day time and then align them. The EZ finder should have some knobs that move the dot as you turn them. Then you print some maps and try to identify the star paterns in the sky to reach the area where the object is, then you point your scope there with the finder.

Planets are small. Jupiter is actually the one that looks bigger but at 96x (with your 25mm and barlow) you should at least get to see 2 darker bands on the disk. I regularly use a 5mm EP on my scope to get more satisfying views of planets, it gives 240x on the XT8. You can get bigger view with another EP. Maybe a good 10mm or 9mm that will perform as 5mm when used with your barlow. If you get a 5mm you won't be able to barlow it, as it goes above the scope limit and shows views washed of detail, so a 10mm, you can barlow into a 5mm is probably a smarter purchase.

For galaxy/nebula the 25mm that Orion offers (the Sirius plossl model) is actually quit good. Galaxy/nebula need low magnification, decent aperture and most important, a dark sky. They look like only gray clouds of light with or without some structure. The images you see around showing color have hours/days of combined exposure, taken with sensors sensitive to light that's not visible to the human eye, such as infra red, enhanced by software... you get the picture.

Stars are so unimaginably for away they are points even on most, if not all, professional telescopes.

[pvaz]

PS-> Maybe a good starter book? I learned to find objects reading "Turn Left at Orion" and I can highly recommend it.

[JamesM]

Mark and Charlotte welcome to visual astronomy!

Your scope has an 8" mirror position at the bottom of a tube that is 1200mm long. Dividing that length by the size of the mirror (1200mm / 203mm) informs us that this is an F5.9 scope. The lower the number the 'faster' the scope. This means that the cone of light reflecting back from your mirror comes to a focusing point at a much steeper angle than that of a 'slower' scope. Think of it as being the difference between looking at the roof of a house compared with a church spire, the light in your scope comes to a point quicker than a slower scope so your light cone is like that of the roof of a house. What this means is that to bring something sharply to focus requires more precision on your scope and therefore would benefit from good eyepieces to get the best from it, where as slower scopes where the tube is longer, aren't so demanding and so can get away with using average eyepieces. This is a design trade off in having a large mirror in a scope that is light and small to increase its mobility. Rule number one, is that you don't get "owt for nowt". I believe this scope is the same as the Skywatcher Skyliner 200P where the 'P' stands for parabolic, indicating the extra curve of the mirror shape to get that light to a point of focus in as short a distance as possible.

Regarding magnification, divide the Focal Length 1200mm by 25mm (eyepiece) and the answer is 48, which is not a great deal by which to examine Saturn or Jupiter. So with the barlow at x2, we can see 1200 / 12.5 will produce 96 magnification. Clearly there is still room for additional magnification even with a 10mm eyepiece (x120) but remember as you stretch the light through magnification, you've got less of it and so the image will both darken and degrade. At that magnification, keeping track of the object as you nudge your scope along requires more control than if left at the original x48 and you quickly start to realize that this whole exercise becomes a balancing act of one advantage set against another and so a compromise will have to be struck somewhere.

Solution:

Probably a better quality eyepiece with a smaller focal length, say a 10mm will certainly improve things. Barlowing that would give you a 5mm view (Mag x 240) which is likely to be too much as 'normal' seeing (movement in the atmosphere) restricts magnification to about x250. Also allow the scope to 'cool' down for at least an hour before using. There will be warm thermals swirling around in there from keeping it inside the house, say you need to allow them to escape as it were. This alone will enhance your seeing! I noticed that a fan was an option for helping with this cool down, if you have it I would recommend using it.

Moving to a dark site away from the sodium lights of the city will help you find nebula and galaxies but if that's tricky for you then there are light pollution filters that can help but not necessarily cure this problem.

Taking Stellarium out with you would be great, remember that you might want to configure it to show a red screen, as this will help maintain your night vision. If that's not an option then get hold of a good star map that is detailed enough to help you star hop from one location in the sky to another, Your Iphone app might be good for this but I have no experience so can't comment.

The finder again I have no experience of but I notice that there are some adjustment screws that will help raise or lower the angle of this red dot pointer. I guess they have already aligned this item to be accurately in line with the scope so its just a matter of how much away from the scope you need to adjust it by.

Best of luck with the observing and if you need more answers then ask away. I'm sure someone on this forum will own the exact same scope as you and can help you more with regard to choice of eyepieces!

Clear skies

James

[JamesM]

Just an extra note:

Having just written my 'sermon' I have just noticed that Griff44 has got the same scope as you guys and is currently asking about eyepieces in this same section of the forum. You might want to take a look at the responses.

James :icon_salut:

[Lurker]

Hi, Thank you for your kind replies.

I am currently looking for 5mm Eyepieces, Any advice on which to buy?

I will need to sort out the ez finder II, That's the most important part of the scope.

Thank you very much, I had to read your replies like 3x to get an understanding... but getting there.

"edited"

Sorted out the EZ Finder II.

[pvaz]

I would advice a 9mm TMB planetary instead. This sell for a decent price and get great reviews. It will be ideal on most nights when the atmosphere isn't too steady and you can use the orion shorty (which is a good barlow) on it when the seeing is good.

There is this seller in the UK:

1.25" 9mm 58 Degree TMB designed Planetary eyepiece on eBay (end time 30-Oct-10 20:05:45 BST)

Another alternative that gives great quality/contrast is an Orthoscopic (= a type of eyepiece design that excel on planetary observation). The only problem with this design is it shows a very narrow view and you need to get your eye real close to the EP, so if you use glasses it won't be viable. In the US you have a very famous brand called University Optics, here's a link: Eyepieces - 1 1/4" Oculars from University Optics

There is an infinite number of choices in EPs so you might want to read some reviews before purchase.

[Chris H]

Hi and welcome to the forum. I have the 10" version of your scope pretty similar really, with regard to the EZ finder are you using it with both eyes open? If not you won't get it to work correctly.

The 5mm ep will give you, as others have said, x240. It's too powerful, in my opinion, you would not get to use this level of power very often. In the UK the atmosphere is not often steady enough to use a power like that. I would recommend a 7 or 6mm ep, these would give you x170 and x200 respectively, and you would get use use these powers much more often particularly x170. As for ep's, what budget do you have because there's a lot of ep's out there ranging from £20 to hundreds of pounds (you get what you pay for in this hobby but don't have to spend hundreds on the top of the range ep's).

[Lurker]

Hi. Thanks for your response Kris.

Just what is the different from a 5mm - 10mm EyePiece, What would I see with a 5mm and a 10mm?

As for the budget, Does not matter can pay up to around £200. Only if it's really worth buying.

Pvas, Thanks again.

Can I use the 9mm Eyepiece with my 2x Barlows Lenses?

I have glasses but I also have contact lenses.

[pvaz]

To get the magnification you obtain with a given EP you need to divide the scope focal lenght by the EP focal length.

So with your 25mm EP yiu get: 1200/25 = 48x

If then you use it with a 2x barlow you get: 96x

So a 10mm EP on your scope will provide you 1200/10 = 120x

And 240x when used with the barlow.

A 9mm gives 133x and 266x when barlowed and a 5mm gives 240x and 480x when barlowed. Your scope shows images washed off any detail past 300x so it's useless to barlow a 5mm ep.

The higher the magnification the bigger you see the planet, but at the same time the more you notice the shimmer caused by the atmosphere. On bad "seeing" days it's like looking through the air coming out a burning candle (seeing = astro slang to describe atmospheric conditions). If stars shimmer when you look at them naked eye then the conditions are bad for high magnifications, and that happens more often then not.

So a 10mm will provide less mag and thus be useful more often then a 5mm and it gives the same mag (240x) as a 5mm when you barlow it.

The thing I said about using glasses is a bit more complicated. Eyepieces have different internal designs, each design usually is better at some things then others and "behaves" in different ways. On some you need to get your eyes only 5mm away from the lens to get a view, thus you won't be able to use glasses on them, and other designs allow you to have your eye as far as 20mm, this is the "eye relief" parameter you can find on the specification of any EP before you buy. The "Abbe Orthoscopic" design haves great contrast but forces you to get the eye real close to the tiny lens. They are uncomfortable to use for most people and impossible for those who use glasses. If thats the case you need an EP with at least 12mm eye relief, 15 would probably be better. Maybe you can observe with contacts but I'm not sure.

[pvaz]

There is this primer that goes deeper down the world of EPs and offers some advice:

http://stargazerslounge.com/primers-tutorials/63184-primer-understanding-choosing-eyepieces.html

[Tim]

If its any consolation, when I started, I found it hard to find the moon. Seriously

[Chris H]

You only need to keep your glasses on whilst using your telescope is you suffer from astigmatism.

As Paulo said when looking at Jupiter on a bad night for example at x100 or higher you can see the ripples and turbulence caused by atmospheric disturbance, it's like looking at the planet through a fast moving shallow stream. So the more you increase the magnification the more you see the disturbance caused by the atmosphere. You get too a point where increasing the magnification just makes the image worse IMO more often than not in the UK this is below x200.

As for what ep's to go for, we're pretty good at spending other peoples money here at SGL so I would recommend some Televue Plossl's maybe a 10mm or 12mm.

[starstalker]

hi welcome to sgl and astronomy, being an ex bromley-ite i know how bad the light pollution is where u are especially at grove park, u need to get out into the sticks, maybe keston,chislehurst or biggin hill, to start seeing nebs and galaxies, i doubt very much u gonna see much of anything at all where u are, good luck bud!

[Skills]

Having taken up astronomy I'm starting look forward to long, dark winter nights and to wish I lived in deepest darkest Scotland this can't be normal?

[Lurker]

I am orginaly from Edinburgh Scotland Skills. But met my Wife over internet moved to London.

starstalker, So if I go to Biggin Hill would I be able to see galaxies? with what I have?

Any place in partilcar? How about Swanley or Orpington?

[pvaz]

If you can look up and see 200 stars naked eye, then you can find lots of galaxies and nebula.

I seen over 50 galaxies with a XT8 and many nebula as well. But just so you don't get mislead by photos take a look at this great sketches that look like what you will see:

Stargazers Lounge - Talitha's Album: Deep Sky Sketches

[Lurker]

pvaz, Thanks for your replies and taking time to type all this out.

Last night I spend like 3-4 hours looking at space, Unable to find a galaxy, How is it so hard to find it?

We even drove to Chislehurt to a big field and didn't find any galaxy or nebulas. I have tried to follow the lines with the stars and I know its up there roughly around so I searched and searched around and around found nothing yet.

[Skills]

have you tried averted gaze?

http://stargazerslounge.com/primers-tutorials/90030-primer-understanding-night-vision-averted-gaze-telescope-tapping.html

The deep sky objects are faint and fuzzy, you might be looking right over them without knowing it

[pvaz]

I 1st learned with binos and a book called "Turn Left at Orion", it's the kind of book even a child can learn from it. I learned to find Andromeda galaxy(M31), hercules globular (M13) and Orion nebula (M42) all visible with binos under a dark sky. So after when I did buya scope it was very easy as I already knew the basics.

Try to find M13 1st in hercules. It's a blob full of stars. it's sits one 3rd of the way between 2 bright stars in hercules and if your finder is well alligned, you should be able to get it. Then try M31 as well, the Andromeda galaxy, use the big leg on the Cassiopeia W which points at it. Or you can start at the great square of pegasus, jump 2 bright stars to the left and another 2 up, it's very close to that star. Always use the 25mm alone to locate the object. Search for sketches online to know what to expect, pictures are no good.

here are some maps for this 2 objects:

M31 - Andromeda galaxy

M13 - Hercules Globular

[oldfruit]

Hi and welcome to SGL.

[Lurker]

Probably, Anyways so do I need a better EP to see the deep sky objects?

[pvaz]

No, the orion 25mm plossl is pretty good and the 1st easiest DSOs you'll probably try need low power. You got low power using the 25mm alone and medium power with the 25mm plus barlow.

M31 is about 8 times bigger then the full moon. Problem is it's too dim, so you need an aid to collect more light so you can see it. On M31 you want as low power as possible.

[starstalker]

maybe it will help to know that they are called "fuzzies" because all u will see with most galaxies and dso's is a fuzzy smudge,also sorry if u wasted your time in chislehurst but i was just trying to think of some darker areas around you that may help u to see what u are looking for,maybe u should try a local astro society and go to a dark site they have(alos someone there will help u find what u are looking for)

[Lurker]

maybe it will help to know that they are called "fuzzies" because all u will see with most galaxies and dso's is a fuzzy smudge,also sorry if u wasted your time in chislehurst but i was just trying to think of some darker areas around you that may help u to see what u are looking for,maybe u should try a local astro society and go to a dark site they have(alos someone there will help u find what u are looking for)

No need to be sorry my 2 dogs had great fun running off into the darkness where we couldn't see them, Probably chasing rabbits or foxes and they came back whenever then run off again.

I will keep trying to find the Galaxy. I got till Thurs to find it then I'm off to Edinburgh to visit my family for 2 weeks. There is gonna be a comet passing the moon... Hopefully we'll see that, Saw a flash of light in space last night for about a second then it dissapeared "shooting star"