CCD Cameras....so many questions....

[Digz]

.... :icon_scratch: So here I go, sorry if any of this has been repeated elsewhere, if this is the case let me know where the information is and Ill bury my head in it

A bit of background - I have around £500 to spend and originally wanted to get a guide camera to help me improve my AP and increase my sub lengths etc. Having thought a little harder I think I want to get a CCD camera but I want to ensure I have the option to use this as a guider later down the line, maybe delving into OAG!!!. Therefore I am looking to get a semi-basic (if there is such a thing) camera to start with, one where I can get some good results but not break my budget

So here are my questions:

1. I come from a photography background as a very keen amateur where to me its all about the megapixels (amongst other things). For example with my 10mp DSLR I can easily make a 10 x 16 inch print and have done so with several prints hanging up around me as I type. So, whenever I look at CCD cameras such as the Atiks, for example, they appear to have a very small MP count. I think I understand about the crop factor and that most DSO's, for example, are quite small but with such a low MP count would I ever be able to print out any astrophotos to hang and frame?

2. I understand there are mono and single-shot colour CCD cameras, but is one better than the other? I appreciate with mono, you will need to take shots with filters to get colour thus requiring me to get a filter wheel etc. but I have also heard about shooting luminance shots - is this something only done with mono cameras?

3. With all the different types of CCD cameras around which ones would you recommend for a beginner given my requirements above? BTW I run a Mac so would prefer to use software for these cameras on this but I do have parallels if the worst comes to worst.

All thats left for me to say is a big thank you for any help offered, hopefully it will stop my head spinning

[riklaunim]

Big CCDs are expensive, like APS-C size (DSLR like) QHY8 is around £1200. Advantage over DSLR they give is cooling (lower noise), higher A/D (16 bit images vs 14-12 bit), and usually higher sensitivity.

For guiding smaller cameras are used. From webcams to dedicated guiders (QHY5, Atik16ic, Titan) or guide-like TIS D*K, DSI I/II etc. when guiding through RS-232. Guider camera won't outperform DSLR (except maybe some specific situations).

To get color image with a mono camera you need a filter wheel with RGB filters (or narrowband filters for nebulae). You shoot R,G,B channels and optionaly something for luminescence (whole visual range, or for example H-alpha) that gives high ammount of detail to color taken from RGB. Sometimes it is possible to get good luminescence from a color camera (Ha-RGB for example).

Some "better" guiders (a.k.a. entry level DS cameras) could be Atik 16ic, 16ic-s, Titan, QHY IMG**, or interlaced QHY6, QHY 6 Pro, Meade DSI II Pro. You could use them for example as primary camera for imaging small objects (like planetary nebulae) with that 250P newtonian on bigger focal length (guided with something) in narrowband or true color and/or guide the DSLR.

[Beyond_Vision]

I would suggest given your budget that you go for a guide camera first and use a DSLR as the imaging camera. Guiding can transform the amount of time you can track an object for and you should get some very good results from a DSLR. There is a very limited choice for CCD under £500 and when you cost up the rest of the things you need you will soon blow the budget. Most of the CCD's under £500 will have small sensors and hence the magifications will be greater resulting in the tracking being more problamatic. I would concentrate on larger targets that suit the FOV of you scope and a DSLR.

Regards

Kevin

[simon84]

I think the first hurdle is finding something Mac compatible, I'm not totally sure but I think the Mac rules out the major candidtes, Atik 16ic, Atik Titan, QHY5 and QHY6. I'm not sure about the Lodestar. All of these cameras are ST4 compatible and will give you an introduction into cooled CCD imaging apart from the QHY5 which is purely a guider unless you go for the v or t models.

Print size I think your looking at about 6x4, quality isnt going to set the world alight but at the end of the day its your image so no matter camera you've got it with if it looks good its worth hanging.

If your going to move it over to guiding I would go for a mono version as they are more sensitive and will guide better than a colour camera.

At the end of the day its a camera to learn the ropes with, I did the same with a QHY6, once I had learnt what I needed to I moved onto something else. In my case a Canon 1000D, I will one day move onto a bigger CCD camera but for now I dont have the pennies.

Like I say the Mac is probably the first hurdle to contend with, after that any of the cameras about bar the QHY5 will give you an insight into CCD imaging. I'm using a QHY5 to guide my 1000D and so far its brilliant.

HTH.

[johnrt]

Agree with SI, mac rules out most CCD's , I use a macbook to run my qhy5 guide cam and Atik 314l+ - but I do it in win xp using boot camp.

[Digz]

Thank you all for the comments, much appreciated.

@riklaunim - a lot of info there, many thanks , plugging a few camera models into Google has allowed me to explore the situation a little better.

@Kevin - many thanks for the input. I think I would, more often than not, be using the CCD as a guide camera but would want to dabble in imaging with it. I think Si puts it perfectly - a camera to learn the ropes with. I appreciate the smaller sensor size will show trailing more readily therefore it might not improve my AP a great deal but I can learn with it

@Si - appreciate the input If I am going to use my CCD as a guide-cam I imagine I would end up using PHD which I have already downloaded for the Mac. Im guessing I plug the guide cam into my Mac, start PHD and then presumably this feeds information back to the guide-cam which is then fed to the mount via the ST4 connection? I get really confused as on Craig Stark's site it mentions Atik cameras but in brackets has windows, does this mean I can only do this through windows or is it the fact the imaging software is windows based?

@John - I think Im gonna end up going down that route for imaging with a CCD by the looks of it which isnt a big deal I have parallels and end up using that for DSS anyway, sigh.

So, how about this then guys - Im thinking of the Atik 16ic (mono following Si's comments ) and an OAG (I presume this OAG will fit to my scope at some point along the optical train between the scope and DSLR?) That way I can capture images with my DSLR and have it guided. With this CCD could I capture any decent images if I were dabble with this for imaging without using any filters? Already the Atik and OAG would be up to and possibly marginally over my budget so if I can avoid buying a filter wheel at the moment that would be good.....

[simon84]

@Si - appreciate the input If I am going to use my CCD as a guide-cam I imagine I would end up using PHD which I have already downloaded for the Mac. Im guessing I plug the guide cam into my Mac, start PHD and then presumably this feeds information back to the guide-cam which is then fed to the mount via the ST4 connection? I get really confused as on Craig Stark's site it mentions Atik cameras but in brackets has windows, does this mean I can only do this through windows or is it the fact the imaging software is windows based?

So, how about this then guys - Im thinking of the Atik 16ic (mono following Si's comments ) and an OAG (I presume this OAG will fit to my scope at some point along the optical train between the scope and DSLR?) That way I can capture images with my DSLR and have it guided. With this CCD could I capture any decent images if I were dabble with this for imaging without using any filters? Already the Atik and OAG would be up to and possibly marginally over my budget so if I can avoid buying a filter wheel at the moment that would be good.....

You got it, I use PHD aswell and its fantastic, plug the ST4 cable from the camera to the mount and then hook the camera up to the computer with the USB lead, select the camera and mount within PHD and click go. After a few calibrations you should be off and guiding. Again I think the drivers for the cameras are all Windows based so you will need to find a way to run Windows. Never done the Mac thing so cant advise on that.

If your using a reducer/flattener I think you would need the OAG in between that and the dslr. That way the guide camera would get a nice corrected fov and not some distorted stars if you put it in front of the reducer. There are some OAG marvels on here, Merlin66 being one of them who will be able to assist better using an OAG.

Never used one myself, I'm using a 50mm finderscope which has been converted to allow a QHY5 to screw on the end of it, very light weight and a nice wide fov with plenty of decent stars to pick from.

Mark_F has been using the Atik 16ic and you can find some of his images in the DSO section, he has done really well with it, but is using it with a filter wheel and LRGB filters.

If you want to save some money the QHY6 is about £70 cheaper and is probably a little bit more sensitive than the Atik. They were the two reasons why I chose it over the Atik, its available from Modern Astronomy.

[RichieJarvis]

Urm - one thing to point out - you have a newtonian scope there (the 250PS) I believe.... You are going to find 2 things with a Camera and a Newt:

1. Focusing on a standard newt is very close in, and sometimes too far in! So achieving focus can be problematic - I recommend you check first.

2. You will need a coma-corrector to reduce coma in the image (elongated stars)

Hope that helps!

Cheers,

Richie

[simon84]

I didnt even notice that, I was looking at all those sizes underneath and could have swore one of those was an Apo......

Totally agree with Richie in that you will need to check your scope to make sure you can achieve focus.

Might be worth going the guidescope route, it will take alot of weight off of the newts focuser and you wont have to worry about getting the Atik to achieve focus.

[Digz]

Thanks again Si, much appreciated. That clears things up for me. I never though of attaching a guide-cam to the finderscope for guiding, sounds like a sensible idea?

Cheers Richie - I can achieve focus with my DSLR on this scope, I have already posted some images in the imaging forum with prime focus AP with this scope, took me a while to figure out (with the help of the knowledgeable here) that my 1.25" EP could be disassembled to allow focus to be achieved.

I also do have an MPCC which I have yet to try out, that will be my next thing to try when the skies clear.

[ollypenrice]

I've a couple of Atik 16ics used or guiding, one mono, one colour for the sake of variety! Brilliant guide cameras and can you can image with them too. Google John Punnet Astrophotoraphy to see some results.

I did a piece in Astronomy Now on colour v mono. The gist is that both are good but that you miss out on easy narrowband capture with colour and may have more of a problem with light pollution. Colour is cheaper but a little slower and easier at the telescope, but not really easier at the processing stage. Or so I found, and still do since I use both a good bit.

To get big prints from a CCD camera you need a big chip more than you need more pixels. Small pixels are less sensitive. The other way is to do mosaics. The great thing about DSLR is the big chip at the low price, though I don't do any DSLR myself.

Good luck on the road ahead and do grab yourself a copy of Steve's book, Making Every Pixel Count. You'll be as mad as the rest of us in no time!!!

Olly

[johnrt]

I would check to see what sort of fov you are going to get with such a small chip camera and your scope.

The 250p DS has a focal length of 1250mm and an Atik 16ic 659 x 494 pixel CCD isn't going to fit much sky on the chip.

You are maybe better off looking at a dslr which would give you a much bigger fov to play with.

[Merlin66]

If you want to "dabble" with a CCD v's DSLR then look for a s/h MX916 type CCD camera ( or the Atik16ic) . I'm not sure they are 100% Mac compatible, but they would allow you relatively cheaply to practise and understand the differences between the larger chipped DSLR and the "average" CCD.

Ken

[simon84]

I think the finder/guider is a brilliant idea, I didnt make mine myself but I'm sure there are some tutorials out there on how to make it.

As for fov for the Atik on a 10" f5 scope see the image attached.

The object is M13 and the fov is very tight indeed, which is nice for DSO's.

I put alot of thought into things recently about going CCD again and what I found out is that even though the Atik gives you a nice tight fov which makes the object nice and big the quality of the image is on par with what you would get if you cropped the same pixel sized image from your dslr pictures. Which got me to thinking, stick with the dslr and guide with a QHY5.

The Atik will teach you the basics for CCD imaging but unless you get a QHY5 aswell or something similar you are only going to get exposure times similar to what you are getting with the dslr now.

My advice would be get a basic guider cam and then when you can afford it learn CCD imaging with something really decent. I'm currently saving up for a QSI 583WSG.

[Digz]

Hey Olly, thanks for the input, I am kinda leaning towards to Atik 16ic and you have definitely made my mind up about mono, I have seen some stunning narrow band images around. Never thought about mosiac making to get larger prints! BTW I do have Steve's book which is becoming very thumbed through (I have read it front to back several times as well )

@Johnrt - I was gonna ask how to do this but it looks like Si has kindly provided me a sample. Out of curiosity anyhooo how would I work this out?

@Merlin66 - I appreciate the input, its what I am leaning towards

@Si - thanks again for the input and working out the FOV. I think your right, I will possibly get the Atik to use as a guider in the main, although curiosity will get the better of me and Ill no doubt give it a try imaging as well, fully understanding my exposure times will not increase. As you say it will allow me to improve my images / exposure times with my DSLR and save up for a good CCD camera in the future. BTW just googled the one you are looking at and it looks the mutts nuts!!!