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Have i made the wrong choice?


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I think it has more to do with the way you say it. :)

Fair point, well-made :D

a GoTo mount isn't going to help you

It helps a lot because - not having the ability at home to practice star-hopping - you're otherwise stuffed when you finally get to a nice place worth viewing elusive objects. Having goto whilst on what is perhaps your only night of fantastic viewing in a year, is a real blessing.

GoTo isn't going to help him much, as he still needs to be able to find reference stars for alignment.

On the contrary ( :D ) I can state from experience that when you can only see a few stars in the sky, you quickly learn their names and can elect to use them as your alignment reference stars for GoTo.

I'm familiar with the argument "if you can see well enough to align, then you don't need goto" but in practice the argument doesn't hold water. Sure you don't need goto for the planets (although it *does* save time), but it genuinely is useful in a light-polluted area for hunting down doubles - especially in a fast scope with a narrow field of view.

I too, used to be anti-goto, but now I'm fully-hooked, and spend more time viewing objects, and considerably less time faffing about - and I've learnt my way around the "virtual sky" that I have to hold in my head when looking around me.

People who can look up and clearly see the constellations around them have no idea how tough it is for those of us who - with the naked eye - can often only see a mere a handful of stars. I've got an obstructed sky too, so I can only see about 60% of it at any given time.

That sounds like any astronomy would be pointless - but planets and bright doubles give me plenty to look at, and of course our humble moon is the ultimate "wow" object for me.

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I live in N london so i am very light polluted but I would still recommend a 10" dob over a titchy scope because what you can see (and I admit, it ain't much :D) looks better through a 10" dob than eg a 6" dob or a 3" apo (both of which I have).

the sad truth is, I have used the 6" dob extensively under dark skies and there is absolutely no substitute for dark skies - tbh, i can see more through 20x60 bins under dark skies than in my dob at home.

the moon, for example, is quite bright - the view in the 3" apo is very nice and crisp but at higher powers the big dob totally kicks the little guy's butt. Likewise, planets at higher powers are much nicer. Even doubles are beter thought the dob becasue fainter companions show up much much better - th only exception is very tight doubles of similar mag which are better through the refractor.

so, even if you are very LP'd, a bigger scope has its advantages. and it impresses the hell out of the neighbours:)

just my 2p's worth...

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Fair point, well-made :D

It helps a lot because - not having the ability at home to practice star-hopping - you're otherwise stuffed when you finally get to a nice place worth viewing elusive objects. Having goto whilst on what is perhaps your only night of fantastic viewing in a year, is a real blessing.

On the contrary ( :) ) I can state from experience that when you can only see a few stars in the sky, you quickly learn their names and can elect to use them as your alignment reference stars for GoTo.

I'm familiar with the argument "if you can see well enough to align, then you don't need goto" but in practice the argument doesn't hold water. Sure you don't need goto for the planets (although it *does* save time), but it genuinely is useful in a light-polluted area for hunting down doubles - especially in a fast scope with a narrow field of view.

I too, used to be anti-goto, but now I'm fully-hooked, and spend more time viewing objects, and considerably less time faffing about - and I've learnt my way around the "virtual sky" that I have to hold in my head when looking around me.

People who can look up and clearly see the constellations around them have no idea how tough it is for those of us who - with the naked eye - can often only see a mere a handful of stars. I've got an obstructed sky too, so I can only see about 60% of it at any given time.

That sounds like any astronomy would be pointless - but planets and bright doubles give me plenty to look at, and of course our humble moon is the ultimate "wow" object for me.

It's not about GoTo versus non-GoTo. Read my post again! Instead of twisting and turning everyone's post here to start an off topic discussion.

The OP is able to see some of the DSO's. Has seen planets, some nebulas and clusters.

He is a beginner and has trouble finding the harder DSO's.

Now... a GoTo might sertainly help him finding those objects easier. much easier.

But in the end he won't see more than with such a big Dob he already has.

In fact. He probably will even be dissapointed, as he has already been spoiled by the large apperture of his 10" dob.

He would be better off saving the money, spending it on replacing the standard finder with a red dot finder (if he hasn't already) and some good filters and keep trying.

As the Skymax 127 isn't exactly cheap either.

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Read my post again! Instead of twisting and turning everyone's post here to start an off topic discussion.

I'm pointing out the specific advantages a Skymax 127 GoTo has when compared to a 10" Dob for someone who has limited time on their hands.

Off topic?

Hardly.

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I think the comparison of the small Mak and big Dob has been thoroughly aired on this thread and John has enough good information here to proceed. But the best thing to do, as ever, would be to get along to an astro soc or star party and see what you think of the scope in the flesh. It may be for you, John, the small scope, or it may not. Only you can really decide.

No one has yet leaped up and shouted Apochromatic Refractor.... whoops!

Olly

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I think the comparison of the small Mak and big Dob has been thoroughly aired on this thread and John has enough good information here to proceed. But the best thing to do, as ever, would be to get along to an astro soc or star party and see what you think of the scope in the flesh.

Good call Olly :D

Oh - and John - don't forget second-hand too; if things don't work out for you then you can sell it onwards at little or no loss.

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Hi,

I lived in Liverpool for about 10 years with LP and blocked views. I stayed with binoculars all that time, only 'upgrading' to a scope when I moved back to a semi rural area here in Scotland.

Please remember that everybody here is giving their personal opinion, there are no 'facts'. Astronomy is a very personal thing and no one can know the specific requirements that any individual has. All advice should be treated as advice.

That's why when buying your first scope you need to take your time. If your forget the Dob for a moment, what is it you need to be able to have an enjoyable experience looking at night sky and take it from there.

And everybody deep breath, hold it, and relax.........

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The question is whether a 10" dob or 127mm mak is better for seeing galaxies from a light polluted site. The answer is that the 10" dob will show more than the mak from the given site, but if the mak were taken to a dark site it would show more than can currently be seen with the dob.

"The greatest variable for seeing [galaxy] detail is not the size of the telescope but the condition of the sky. For deep-sky work, a 4-inch telescope in the country will beat a 16-inch in the city." (Roger Clark, Visual Astronomy Of The Deep Sky).

Every experienced deep-sky observer knows the truth of this statement. To see galaxies properly you've got to get away from light pollution. So the telescope needs to be the largest aperture that can easily be transported by the available means and set up in a reasonable time.

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You are what's known in Astronomy as 'In too deep'

Suggestion:-

Put the dob away temporarily (except for looking at Saturn !)

Invest in a medium-sixed pair of binoculars -say 7X35 or 8X40 - anything bigger may get quite tiring to use because of the weight - unless you are strong. It won't be wasted money as you will keep coming back to them no matter how big a scope you have.

Get a basic star map-book, nothing too fancy.

Buy a red bicycle light or ordinary torch with the action-end covered with red cellophane ie. sweet wrapper - to read the star map.

Get to know the sky.

The most important skill is called 'star-hopping':-

Determine to find a bright object on the star map that is in or close to a constellation you already know and try to find it by finding the nearest bright star to it using your lovely new binos. and sweeping from there.

The trick is being aware how big the field in the binos is compared with the naked-eye view. This is important as this will help you find objects in the Dob finder later on. Personally I use a 6 X 30 finderscope as it has a nice wide field and doesnt show too many faint stars which can otherwise be confusing due to the star map only showing the brighter ones.

As it is spring there are few objects that can be seen in small binos except for M3 in Canes venatici so just learn the constellations and various interesting coloured or double stars.

If you stay up late you could try to find :-

M13 in Hercules,

starclusters in Ophiuchus and cygnus

The dumbell nebula in Vulpecula.

NB: rest now & then and watch for meteors.

Happy hunting !

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Ive followed this thread and re-read most of it because im "funnily" in the exact opposite position.... i own a skymax 127 with goto and have been thinking of a 10" dob... I live in a fairly rural area and assumed the dob was the way to go. However after a 15 min drive the other night for a 1st real night out starwatching with my other half im now NO longer looking for the dob as it became blaitantly obvious i need a portbale scope. i cant believe the stark contrast a 15 min drive made... thats wasnt even out of the Lp bubble i need to travel 40 mins to get out of that. For instance i used my 10x50 bins and M44 was beautiful right next to mars. Saturn on the MAK was "shocking" i dragged the same gear out last night in the back garden expecting to show off to guests and it was appaling :-( the bins showed almost nothing on M44 a few smudge marks. M3 and M13 NOT visible in the Mak at 23:20. i now know i bought the correct scope as its obvious i need to travel to see.... yes i can get the doubles and planets but for a large village/VERY small town on the north downs (walderslade woods) ME5 9QD at high altitude looking east over wooded area the viewing is poor. Id love to get the dob down to my mums at reculver as i sure the viewing would blow me away its just the Mak is soooooo portable. And for me a novice with little time the goto is just great. I use stellarium to plan my viewing subjects, pack up and travel. setup in less than 20 mins make a cuppa tea and wait for mak to cool and im all set and viewing 10 - 15 subjects in less than an hr. Im not saying what is best for this person im just reporting on my own findings and thought it relevant as i was thinking the complete opposite to him.

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I think I may add something:

If you want to observe at home, then the 10" will show you more the the 127 even with light pollution. Some of the members made a fair point though, start hoping under LP may be a nightmare so you'd benifit from a GOTO. Still if you are planning to observe at home, a dob on a shed/garage is a very quick setup and you can make setting circles and buy a wixey, if star hoping is really not an option, and use stellarium, or some phone planetarium software, to tell you the current coordinates of objects in the sky.

If instead you have plenty of opportunities to go to a dark location AND the dob is too much to carry, then the 127 would suit you better. Still a dob is easilly disassembled and put in a car and a dob will show you even more on dark areas.

You already have the scope, if you ware asking advice on a purchase I would recommend the best of both worlds with an Orion XTi dob (haves pushto system).

Whichever you decide I think you should try both the star hoping and then the setting circles + wixey before downgrading cause you'll be loosing 74.2% light gathering, which means objects will only be around 25.8% as bright on the 127 when compared to the dob. That's a massive downgrade, probably even more noticeable under LP!

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Hi there,

I agree with everyone here! I am pretty new to all this despite having bought my 12" Dob nearly three years ago. I never made much effort to drag it out. Luckily I ran into an old friend who is big into stargazing and he persuaded me to get back out there. I am looking to buy the mak 127 soon to use purely for imaging puposes, after taking a lot of advice from the great people on this forum.

I nearly the traded the dob in to raise the funds for the mak but after attending my first ever observing night on Saturday with a local astronomy club, I got the chance to look through a whole range of different scopes and have to say that with the right dark sky, a little knowledge and some patience you will be amazed at what you can see with your dob. This was the first time that I had seen galaxies and globular clusters WHICH WERE LITERALLY JAW-DROPPING. I saw all of this through a 10" dob. Yes, there were clearer views of Saturn and even Mars through other types of telescope, but the viewable sky is so full of wonders that I believe the mak will limit your experience if it your only scope.

I am still going to buy the mak 127 but only to use for planet/moon imaging and because I can use it as a gtab and go. After my experience at the weekend I will never consider parting with my dob again. Stick with it and you won't regret it!

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It really depends on how much that can be found. A 10" dob is bigger then a 127 Mak, but if nothing can be found then it is of no use.

Someone posted on another forum asking similar a while back and after a couple of replies they said that the problem was that in several years of having a 10" dob it had never really lived up to expectations. They had found it took too long to setup, cool down time is relevant as is collimation. So it had basically sat round gathering dust. They wanted, and I presume did, to swap to a 102 goto Refractor.

Star hopping is fine, if you know enough to star hop. Otherwise you are stuck. Light pollution doesn't help.

Sn00p mantioned one advantage of a goto, a dob is OK for you to view, not so good to let someone else look. Odds are the other person cannot nudge a dob to track an object. Goto's do it for them.

Remember that a goto needs setting up and there are LOTS of threads about the problems associated with this. Plug and play they are not.

If the problem is that with the 10" dob you are not managing to locate and so see anything then persevering with the frustration is pointless. The idea of the hobby is to view things in the sky.

Will agree with the idea of locating a club and preferably a club where someone has a 127 for you to try.

Just a thought: Maybe the problem isn't that you have bought the wrong scope, just you have bought the scope in the wrong order. Maybe the 127 should have come first, then the dob when you had more experience/knowledge.

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This has come up before - I live in light pollution hell. I am lucky on a good night if I can see two or three stars. Its impossible to learn the sky from where I live because you can only ever see maybe two or three stars at most. Its so bad the only objects you can reliably see are the moon and Jupiter - try star happing with just those two and see how far you get - not far will be the honest answer.

I have to travel to a dark sky site and that means time - I can maybe get to do it twice a month oif I am lukcy and of the weather is kind.

My 8" Newt has barely been out the house since last August. Last Saturday was the firts time its been out in so long I cant remember.

Its not so much just LP its time - if you have little time available you'll struggle. Thats why a GoTo is such a boon.

I had the same thing as Great Bear at Salisbury 2 years ago - a sky so full of stars I couldnt get my bearings. When your used to seing maybe two or three stars and are then confronted by a few hundred its hard to navigate and thats when I climbed down from my own personal high horse of saying 'learn the sky' and accepted I never would and bought GoTO and ever since I have actually been able to see stuff.

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OK, all points on here are valid.

My own take is simply this. The dob will give better views of everything, period.

The 127mm will be more transportable certaily but whenever you drive out and get nice views you will always know it would have been sooooo much better in the dob.

It's not that much harder to pack up the dob than the Mak and not that much more effort.

Finding things gets easier over time even if you don't get much practice.

In reality you will be unlikely to get much more use from the Mak than the Dob anyway.

If you already have the scope why deny your self better views on the few times you get to use it?

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The 127mm will be more transportable certaily but whenever you drive out and get nice views you will always know it would have been sooooo much better in the dob.

Maybe some would feel that way, but I don't think everyone's thinking works like that. After all, do small Dob owners sit there thinking "Oh these views are so rubbish compared to what I'd get in an Orion Fifty!" [click here] (a snip at a mere $123,000)

If you're not resident at a dark sky location, you're far more likely to simply be thinking: Wow. I'm enjoying this moment.

It's not that much harder to pack up the dob than the Mak and not that much more effort.

Perhaps - but you have to draw the line somewhere. Can you carry a 10" dob single-handedly up a Cumbrian hillside in the middle of the night for example? Would you want to? - Well, you can easily do that with the 127 GoTo Mak. So there's always a line - even if it's a fine one. I've seen (on more than one occasion) people sell a 12" dob to get a 10" or even an 8", simply because the 12" dob was more than they could cope with.

With lifestyle items like scopes, an individual has to consider their own preferences and circumstances. Other people's "opinions" aren't really applicable. I've not claimed the Mak 127 is a technically "better" scope - but I'd personally prefer it over a 10" dob given the choice. I'd enjoy it more - and that's justification enough. Heck I've even got the spare cash for a 10" dob, and I don't want one. Maybe I will when I move home.

If you already have the scope why deny your self better views on the few times you get to use it?

Well - as I said in my original post - if John got a Mak I'd recommend he still keeps the dob for a couple of years and see which scope falls into disuse. If he's really someone with very little time, I'll wager it's the dob that falls into disuse :)

All just my "opinion" naturally! :D

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I've been keeping an eye on this thread for a couple of days, and very good points have been made.

Here is my experience of these issues.

I lived in Enfield for a while in the late 80's, and had a 6 inch newtonian at the time. LP was terrible.

It didn't get used as I couldn't see anything worthwhile apart from the bright planets and the moon.

From central Nottingham, where I lived for a long while, LP was not as bad, but still not good, but the Newt did get used and the brighter fuzzies were visible....M1 was there if you knew where to look for example.

When we moved down to the south coast, LP was a lot better, and I got a 120mm scope. This gave great views, and when I took it out into the sticks, it was fantastic, and pretty easy to transport.

I then bought a 10inch LX200, and compared to the 120mm, from the same location, the 10 inch completely outclassed the 120mm.

Although quite heavy, the 10 inch was still portable for me (I'm not a big chap...5ft8, 11 1/2 stone), and from a dark site the views were spectacular, and from moderate LP, still a heck of a lot better then the smaller scope.

For me, a 10 inch Dob is easily transportable and I would personally go for that over the 127, but it's down to what any individual thinks that they are up to moving without it being a chore. The fact is though, that a 10 inch will beat a 5 inch every time, so if the size doesn't matter, the bigger scope wins.

The other issue here is GOTO.

I use GOTO all the time for imaging, but visually I have no intention of going anywhere near it, as for me, it takes the fun away....I like finding things by exploring the night sky.

With GOTO, especially on a 5 inch scope from a LP location, you will simply shift from one barely visible fuzzy blob to another, and probably be thoroughly underwhelmed.

All of these factors are well worth considering, as are the other well explained issues in the thread.

Cheers

Rob

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The other issue here is GOTO. visually I have no intention of going anywhere near it, as for me, it takes the fun away..

The funny thing is - I always assumed that I too would enjoy developing the skill of finding things. In fact, I found the opposite to be true. Increasingly over time found it frustrating and annoying - due in no small measure to the lack of waypoints in my dreadful sky. Maybe it's because I'm a Technology Developer working with next-gen technologies, but I have no issue with the task of manual alignment and calibration of a GoTo system before letting it do all the work. I actually enjoy this task immensely.

So I enjoy the things they said I'd hate, and hate the things they said I'd enjoy. Oh well... :D

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Different strokes for different folks as they say! :D

I recently had the use of a 20 inch dob for the night, which had a co-ordinate system on it, but we didn't switch it on, and just enjoyed the hunt....mind you, the skies were black so it was possible to find things, and also find interesting objects that you weren't looking for, which you wouldn't have done with GOTO.

For imaging though, it's essential.

Cheers

Rob

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Maybe it's because I'm a Technology Developer working with next-gen technologies, but I have no issue with the task of manual alignment and calibration of a GoTo system before letting it do all the work. I actually enjoy this task immensely.

This just goes to prove how personal this choice is! I'm a software developer and when I get home I just want to forget about technology. To me star hoping is almost therapeutic and helps me relax after a long work day. I do have goto, sometimes it is handy but I leave it off 90% of the time. Knowing the sky gives me as much or more pleasure then observing and not feeling dependent of technology, to just look up anywhere I'm at, even without a scope, and say "that's where [fill in an object name of your choice] is!" gives me a great satisfaction.

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to just look up anywhere I'm at, even without a scope, and say "that's where [fill in an object name of your choice] is!" gives me a great satisfaction.

Ah - but I do GoTo with a mini white Samsung netBook I bought specifically for this purpose (white to match the HEQ5 :D ) - so (as I mentioned before) it's helped me learn the night sky because I can always see my target in context in the sky.

The "sky" as in a richly-rendered Cartes du Ciel sky that is - not that orange, smog-filled thing above my house :)

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Hi everyone,

Thank you all very much for the replys, seem to have a lot of different preferences about individual scopes and that is great! I think for the time being i will stick with the Dob, it is a fantastic piece of kit and its just me who has not given it the time or use it deserves, and not enhanced my personal knowledge. I am fascinated with astronomy but such is life, time is a premium however from now on i will definatelly be making some time as i am sure i will reep the rewards, i am even penciling in a trip not far up the road to loch lomond this weekend to find a dark sky, weather permitting. The comments on the goto have also made me think that i would also like one as a grab and go, possibly buy one in the future to complement the Dob.

Thank you again for the fantastic advice that is always given by everyone in this forum. It is such a special place.

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Well I say stick with the dob I use my 10'' dob from my light polluted garden and one thing is for sure you will see alot more with it than you will with out it and enjoy what you can. You may not get the best views of the messier objects but at least you can say you found them. I now make apoint of listing all the objects I can find from my light polluted garden it gives you some thing to do rather than give up as for youre choice of scope I have three and the dob gets the most use ( SO EASY TO SET UP).

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I like it John - have both! :D always the best solution if you possibly can (cake and eat it springs to mind).

as a fellow novice (and one with a similar dob) the two things that really changed my enjoyment and ability to find things were a Telrad and a 2" wide field (see my signature for the one I have which is a little soft in such a fast scope but a great finder eyepiece). I'd recommend both if you don't have them. I use the Telrad, then the small 6x30mm right angled finder and then the wide eyepiece and usually I am in the right spot approx.

good luck!

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Knowing the sky gives me as much or more pleasure then observing and not feeling dependent of technology, to just look up anywhere I'm at, even without a scope, and say "that's where [fill in an object name of your choice] is!" gives me a great satisfaction.

That is a great sentement Paulo, exactly what i want. To be anywhere and look up and say "i know you", must be great!

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