The Expense of Telescopes !

[Scottie]

Hi,

Has it crossed your mind how expensive SCT's are in this country? It seems a real shame that import duty tax and shipping costs are passed directly to us by "Sales" .

If you are intrigued check out www.scopecity.com a California based store. Duty, shipping and tax may vary enormously for you given location.

At Scope City the SCT Celestron Edge HD 14" OTA retails at $5,799 which is £3,464 by currency convertion. Even if you add £1000 getting it over here. Is it worthwhile?

If you have a friend or relative they could bring it back over in a suitcase on their next trip maybe

[Mike_F]

Mmm. That cost difference has irked me at times too. It seems hard to reconcile the additional costs of import duties etc with the sometimes stark price difference implied by exchange rates.

I've contemplated (but not acted on) services like these guys:

Bundle Box - The smarter way to buy from the USA

Unlike others, they seem to calculate import taxes etc for you - no nasty surprises when your 'scope hits customs!

BTW - I'm not affiliated with them in any way, just something I've considered using.

[Jupiter Martin]

Just wondering If you had family out there and had it sent to them from the store and they shipped it to you as a present would you have to pay import tax. I am saving for a new scope already and was comparing the prices here and the prices in the states and big difference. Could I get away with this do you think

[Scottie]

Hi,

Well it is difficult to know how to explore these issues. Good point Mike F , I'll check out your link Thanks. Oh yeah, I have no connection in any way to Scope City. It was just an interesting find on the net.

Cheers

[SteveL]

Many of the US dealers are prohibited by the manufacturers from shipping outside their own retail country/region. Celestron and Meade are two of the companies that do this. If you want Celestron or Meade in the UK, you have to go through an authorised dealer if you want your warranty to be valid. Thats a lot of money to spend for something that wont have a warranty

Televue used to prevent export from the US too, having to go through regional dealers, but a couple of years back stopped that practice.

[FLO]

These threads come and go depending on the £-$ rate. At the moment the $ is weak which makes UK prices appear expensive. Not so long ago it was actually the other way around (though sadly not for long) but nobody noticed, at least if they did they didn't consider it worthy of a mention here

When comparing prices keep in mind the delivery cost, handling (in the US), import duty, UK VAT and the customs/handling charge when the item switches to a different carrier here in the UK.

It is all a bit hypothetical however because as SteveL says, if a US Celestron dealer exports into the UK then they are breaking the terms and conditions imposed on them by Celestron themselves. This can make warranty repairs rather difficult as it must first be returned to the US.

If it makes you feel any better, UK prices are now significantly cheaper than other Euro countries. We are currently dispatching kit (not Celestron!) to locations all over Europe and Scandinavia. Whilst these extra sales are very welcome we try not to get used to them as we know they will dry up as soon as the euro-£ situation moves against us.

HTH

[Scottie]

Thanks Guys,

These are really good helpful points. I guess the hunger to find the ideal scope to feed our passion for the stars can make us over eager.

[Astro_Baby]

Just a point - if your relative sends it to you and the value of goods is over £19 then yes you are still liable to import tax.

You could chalk the value down a bit but customs will never accept that a CPC 800 cost less than £19

Interestinlgy going the other way - UK-US customs in the US dont care and you are free to ship at no customs duty I am told by a friend in the US.

[lx200gps]

It’s one of those issues that does your head in if you think about it too much. So best not to. Interestingly, a while back when we had nearly $2 to the pound I didn’t notice a big drop in prices over here. Probably because it might be argued that to keep an eye on exchange rates, and adjust prices accordingly, would be cumbersome to say the least.

I have bought gear direct from US in the past and wouldn’t hesitate to do so again if the price was right. I think the “guarantee” argument is suspect with most of the astro gear we buy. For example I wouldn’t lose any sleep over an eyepiece or small refractor from someone like TV, whereas, there is no way I’d consider importing a reflector, SCT or a GOTO. On the other hand it would be interesting if someone who bought from the US claimed under the guarantee. I just cannot see how a manufacturer could legally wash their hands. Wasn’t there a test case a few years ago with cars bought in Europe for use in the UK?

On the other hand, telescopes are much better value these days than, say, 30 years ago so it’s not all doom and gloom.

[SteveL]

The "invalid warranty" play is used by manufacturers who dont allow their US dealers to export (Celestron, Meade). I dont think any one else who does allow sales to anyone outside the US prevenst warranty claims, but it is someting to check before purchase.

Legally, buying stuff within the EU and using it in the UK is a lot different than buying stuff in the US for use in the UK. Warranties should be applied across all the EU territories without issue, but there is no such blanket coveregae for US sales exported to the EU.

[pvaz]

Skywatcher equipment is cheaper at FLO then in Portugal. The rest is about the same price, maybe a little cheaper. If it was now I would have bought the 300p instead of my XT8i for around the same price.

I been doing some orders from UK (ebay) of items over 70€ since there is no tax in EU.

From the US I buy everything under 70€ since I don't pay taxes for buying 1 single item at that price range. I did order a few over 70€ 'cause even with the tax I would save money and there is always the chance customs would not stop them. In 2 shippings one stopped the other didn't.

[lx200gps]

I cannot see how using equipment in a country, other than in which it was bought, invalidates the guarantee and my point was that it would be interesting if someone actually challenged this. Personally I consider this a myth but there you go.

[Scottie]

Interesting stuff, good thoughts,

I wonder what percentage of purchasers really use warranty provisions. The BiG BoyS of telecope manufacture like Meade and Celestron surely trust their products. If I bought a flagship piece like the Edge HD I'd be surprised if it had problems.

However having said that since I had saved money by buying overseas maybe I would put it in a piggybank just as a precaution. But then what if its bruised in the shipping?

Whilst it is an honour for Mr. David Hinds to present Celestron to the UK and do award winning work for them, why the big price mark-up. Surely Celestron would help with shipping vast quantities of astronomy products to the UK

[Ant]

Probably because it might be argued that to keep an eye on exchange rates, and adjust prices accordingly, would be cumbersome to say the least.

Sorry I don't agree, ANY company that imports goods will automatically either pre buy dollars, or at least hedge their bets buy allowing a small buffer.

But I would be very surprised if an importer of anything doesn't look at the daily exchange rate and the trend EVERY SINGLE day.

We do all three...

Ant

[Scottie]

Well, food for thought

U.S offer Meade LX200 14" ACF GOTO package $6,999 / £4.201 current exchange rate

U.K. dealer offer exact same scope package for £8,990

U.S.offer Celestron Edge HD 14" GOTO package $9,999 / £6,001 current exchange rate

U.K dealer offer exact same scope package for £12,999

Why double the price for the U.K market?

[FLO]

I guess only Meade, Celestron and their UK distributors can answer that one. I can assure you it isn't dealer profit margins.

[lx200gps]

Ant

This was a point made by one of the dealers a few years ago when this subject was raised on another forum. Of course, you would expect them to try and justify their prices, afterall everyone is entitled to make a living. Personally, I only purchase from UK dealers if it's absolutely necessary.

[Capricorn]

From experience if you buy from the US then it has to be significantly cheaper at the outset then here in the UK. Basically shippage and duty.

Five years back I bought 2 sets of binoculars from the US the price there was good and they were happy to ship. I paid $45 for the shiping (FedEx) and about £23-25 to HMRC when they arrived, paid via FedEx. The binoculars came somewhere around $165. At the end of the day I paid out a total of £163. They arrived in under 2 days, shipped from Deluth, Minisota to Bradford.:D

At the time the more expensive set cost £165 in the UK, the cheaper set cost £99 in the UK. I had in effect got the second cheaper set free.:D:D

They are of a cost that makes repairs are immaterial, but never had any problems anyway, both are used regularily and more then a little pleased with them.

[Astro_Baby]

I used to work for a company that had to sell in the UK from goods manufactured in China but developed in the USA and with our logistics centre in Amsterdam.

When products were new (and therefore potentially unreliable) they were shipped in from the US plant which always manufactured the bleeding edge products. Once we had manufacturing down pat and reliability sorted all the goods would ship from China.

This gave us a lot of currency headaches in many ways. Our expenses were always in US$ so we had to pay US workers in $ and the Chinese in $ as well.

Back then the currency was relatively stable for a few years at 1.74 $ to the £. Manufacturing margins were so tight that if the exchange rate moved too much we'd be out of pocket very fast on a low margin high volume product.

Basically we held a buffer stock in Amsterdam which was bought and paid for in advance but we would have to issue price changes monthly to take into account factors like shipping, exchange rates and any unexpected hassles. That worked ok in a business to business environment but when you sell to retail you cant keep altering the price every few weeks so for retail we would peg the price and run with it for at least a quarter. To protect us the pegging would be done based on our worst case. That meant the retail punter would always pay over the odds when the rate was favourable but was protected from a sudden price hike if the rate went the other way. We would in fairness tell a retailer if prices were expected to go up in advance so they could lay their own stock in and 'play the market' by being able to run specials when everyone elses stock was exhausted.

Sometime later while working for a very much larger operation headquartered in Korea and shipping all over the place they preferred ,because of the vast size of the company and its worldwide base, that prices would be pegged to the US $ - in the UK that meant if the product cost $20 in the rest of the world it would cost £20 here. It was just a practical and simple way of doing it and allowed us to set prices at a reliable level so people knew what they were going to pay - they werent going to walk into Currys and get told - "sorry mate - the dollars down against the yen and OPEC just upped the price of crude so your TV price just shot up another £300".

It seems unfair but in reality shipping costs can run high on low volume items. If you were prepared to consignment ship 5000 Televue Ethos EPs you;d get a better price break, both on the factory gate price AND the shipping costs, but few, if any, dealers can take that kind of financial hit and it would leave them open to losing business on everything else while their capital is tied up. Telescope gear I would imagine is rather unlike the stuff I have mass marketed in the past such as bashing our mobile phones, DVD players and flat screen televisions or even selling corporate scale computing kit where stuff like Ethernet cards were literally flying off the shelf.

Recent experience shipping items into the UK from the US tell me its a patchy story. IF the US dealer is willing to mark the item down on its invoice and your prepared to take the risk on shipping (because if it gets lost your insurance only covers the invoice value) you can get a good deal cos customs will only zap you for the invoice price (up to a point anyway). If the US dealer wont do that you are liable to import duty and shipping whih can wipe out any gains made in reducing the price. When you throw in the fact that the US has no sale of goods act so you could be on your own fighting a contract battle if it all goes wrong I'd say its not worth the possible grief. I'd only do it if I wanted something that was unavailable in the UK.

And dont forget dealers and their importers in the UK are bound by rules about stuff which maybe dont apply elsewhere. The regulatory aspects in the UK are quite horrendous for a business and obviously carry a cost.

[FLO]

... IF the US dealer is willing to mark the item down on its invoice and your prepared to take the risk on shipping (because if it gets lost your insurance only covers the invoice value) you can get a good deal cos customs will only zap you for the invoice price (up to a point anyway).

Worth noting that the practise is illegal.

[Astro_Baby]

Good point Steve - I wasnt suggesting people do it only highlighting the risks. It would be rather nasty to part with say $500 for an Ethos, get the dealer to invoice you for $10 and then the EP gets lost - you'd be well out of pocket and not very happy.

[FLO]

I know you weren't

I just had a vision of someone thinking 'hey, that's a clever wheeze' then finding themselves prosecuted.

Interestingly we never hear from those who have tried beating the system but failed. I know they are out there because we are sometimes asked to fake a UK purchase receipt (no, we don't!) so they can have the UK service centre repair it free of charge.

[AndyH]

I know you weren't

I just had a vision of someone thinking 'hey, that's a clever wheeze' then finding themselves prosecuted.

Interestingly we never hear from those who have tried beating the system but failed. I know they are out there because we are sometimes asked to fake a UK purchase receipt (no, we don't!) so they can have the UK service centre repair it free of charge.

Seriously Steve?!?!?!?

Thats outrageous ! Some folk have brass necks.....jeez

Andy.

[lx200gps]

Yes, the practise is illegal but if you parked your car for a shopping trip and you got back 10 minutes after your alotted parking time you have also probably comitted an illegal act. Can't imagine too many being that bothered. Avoiding duty and VAT on imported items would probably fall into the same category. That reminds me, I bought a TeleGizmo scope cover a few years ago and when it arrived there was no duty or VAT to pay. Did I feel guilty or lose sleep?? An astro dealer not a million miles from here had, more or less, a similar cover in stock but didn't get the sale because he couldn't be bothered to phone me back after my initial inquiry. Not only did he lose that sale but all future ones also. Never buy from UK unless desperate.

[FLO]

... if you parked your car for a shopping trip and you got back 10 minutes after your alotted parking time you have also probably comitted an illegal act ... Avoiding duty and VAT on imported items would probably fall into the same category.

Earlier this year customs held, opened and inspected one of our William Optics deliveries. If we had asked our supplier to undervalue the package we would have been prosecuted.

People can and will will shop where they like but to gloss over tax evasion as though it amounts to little more than a parking offence is reckless, in my humble opinion