Total City-Based Beginner

[Lung]

I've looked at getting into astronomy a few times over the last 10 or so years but never pulled the trigger, and now want to finally get started as my 6yo boy is showing a real interest in space. I've read a ton of websites, watched a load of videos and can't find some information that fits our needs.

First, I live in a city, so would like something that minimises the effects of light pollution.

Second, as my kids are both so young it's unlikely we'll be able to spend much time out at night for a while, so something that minimises the effects of looking through window glass would be great.

I've already decided to go for binoculars to start off, and tripod mounted too as I think that will help the kids. I've been looking mostly at 10x50 bins like the Opticron Adventurer T or Nikon Action Ex, or some 15x70s to make the most of the mount, but are there any of these or others that fit the bill re light pollution or glass refraction better than the others? Alternatively would a refractor be a better way to go?

Budget isn't really an issue, I'm willing to spend for decent kit, but at the same time I dont want to throw too much into it if my kids decide they have zero interest in it.

[Bugdozer]

No binocular or telescope is fundamentally better than another at combating light pollution. There are filters designed for telescope eyepieces but these often can't be used with binoculars. By viewing from inside through a window, you will also be deteriorating the view. 

[Ags]

I remember when my grandson was 6. I had a NexStar 4SE then and he was an enthusiatic observer. Binoculars are not easy to use... they are shaky, you have to align the eyepieces with the eyes, they're heavy... with the 4SE I could point the scope at .e.g. the Moon and the target would stay in the field of view. Also, far higher magnification can be used and you can be sure that any kid is going to be amazed at a close-=up look at the Moon or a planet.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Ags

[RT65CB-SWL]

Hi @Lung and welcome to SGL. 

Binoculars are a good entry but to get detail of the planets then the next step is a telescope. Where possible avoid department stores and the online warehouses. Use a dedicated outlet such as https://www.firstlightoptics.com/ the sponsor of SGL and have look here https://www.firstlightoptics.com/beginner-telescopes.html

When you have decided on what you think maybe suitable, come back and let us know, then we can advise of any pros & cons, etc.

[LaurenceT]

Just a different view of children and telescopes. Our granddaughter is 6 and has shown a great interest in the universe, when she was 5 she could recite the planets and their relationship with the sun.

 

A couple of weeks ago I set up my Startravel 102 for her to look at the moon and the Pleiades which were showing nicely. Something about her comments made me doubt what she was actually seeing so I crouched down next to her and realised that her viewing eye was shut firmly tight! I was absolutely unable to get her to open that eye, it either remained firmly shut at the eyepiece or when open she was looking up along the length of the scope tube!

I realised that I still had a mobile phone adapter in the cupboard so I quickly set it up with an eyepiece and a phone and she was absolutely amazed to see the targets.

[Mr H in Yorkshire]

1 hour ago, LaurenceT said:

I realised that I still had a mobile phone adapter in the cupboard so I quickly set it up with an eyepiece and a phone and she was absolutely amazed to see the targets.

Honestly, can't the younger generation do ANYTHING without looking at a phone screen!

[Mogster]

12 hours ago, Ags said:

I remember when my grandson was 6. I had a NexStar 4SE then and he was an enthusiatic observer. Binoculars are not easy to use... they are shaky, you have to align the eyepieces with the eyes, they're heavy... with the 4SE I could point the scope at .e.g. the Moon and the target would stay in the field of view. Also, far higher magnification can be used and you can be sure that any kid is going to be amazed at a close-=up look at the Moon or a planet.

Another vote for the 4SE. 
 

Carry it outside assembled, put it down, solar system or one star align to track object, add alignment points as you go. If you have a laptop replace the ep with a camera for some eaa even.
 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Mogster

[PeterStudz]

I might make a proper reply but it’s Christmas Eve and I’m busy. However, I do know what @LaurenceT means. I have a keen 12 yrs old daughter who started out with me when she was 9. We have used a mobile as a tool in order to see more and/or see things that would otherwise not be possible from our Bortle 7 garden. 

That doesn’t mean that she can’t do anything without looking at a phone screen. She far prefers looking through the eyepiece. In fact I was very amused to her response to astrophotography (after she found out how it was done) as “those fake pictures” 😀

Edited December 24, 2023 by PeterStudz

[PeterC65]

@Lung mentions some specific issues, namely, living in a light polluted city and needing to observe from inside. Both of these things can be greatly alleviated by doing Electronically Assisted Astronomy (EAA) rather than pure visual.

EAA is very different to astrophotography and much closer to visual astronomy. You see what you see on the night, and if you move the scope, or if clouds appear, then the view changes. It feels live, because it is. But you can see MUCH more than you can visually, light pollution is much less of a problem, you can mostly remain inside, and you can share the experience (and be sure of what your young companion is observing).

 

[bosun21]

Whilst I do visual, EAA and planetary imaging all of which I enjoy very much I still think nothing compares to the view through an eyepiece. If light pollution is severe I can recommend EAA to obtain views that are simply not possible with an eyepiece. Once the planets are gone I will be spending more time on EAA and visual.

[Gonariu]

5 hours ago, Mr H in Yorkshire said:

Honestly, can't the younger generation do ANYTHING without looking at a phone screen!

True, I am a physics teacher and I must say that with the students it is a constant war in the classroom due to the smartphone!

Edited December 24, 2023 by Gonariu

[PeterStudz]

12 minutes ago, Gonariu said:

True, I am a physics teacher and I must say that with the students it is a constant war in the classroom due to the smartphone!

In my daughter’s school they are not allowed to bring phones into school. They use Yondr pouches which are secure and block cell phone signals. It’s a brilliant idea & works well…

https://www.overyondr.com

[Lung]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I hadn't come across EAA in my reading, so that sounds like something that could be good.

I also hadn't read about Bortle classification so I looked up my location and apparently it's Class 6, so not the worst but definitely not ideal.

I think you are all making sense about binoculars, I'd been looking at that from an adult perspective and hadn't considered it might not be universally applicable.

It might be that some bins for myself and a scope for the kids to use with my help might be the way to go.

[RT65CB-SWL]

Bortle 6 isn’t to bad. My home where I observe is the same and you will be quite surprised as to what you can see with binoculars and/or a small telescope.

When I visit my father and step-mother, (they live in a Bortle 4 area), I am in awe with what I can view just with the naked eye.

[PeterStudz]

I’m in Bortle 7 and after 3 yrs of doing this we aren’t bored. And don’t forget holidays to a dark/darker site. 

My daughter was 9 yrs when we started and there’s a big difference between 6 & 9! Of course it depends on the person/child but Alice is a very outdoors person which has helped - eg camping, camping in the garden which she loves anyway is taken to another level with stargazing. 

She does use binoculars too. But what I we found helpful was a second pair. I got something cheap for £25 secondhand (actually they aren’t bad!) so that I could direct the star hop. Works well, is more fun and saves the faff/irritation of loosing target when you pass them back and forth. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by PeterStudz

[PeterC65]

28 minutes ago, Lung said:

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I hadn't come across EAA in my reading, so that sounds like something that could be good.

If you decide to go down the EAA route then the lowest cost and most simple option is probably a ZWO SeeStar S50. I've not used one but they are well regarded and a simple way to get in to EAA.

 

[jjohnson3803]

Binos are light, portable, and (can be) relatively cheap.  But, as mentioned, they can be hard to hold steady and it can be difficult to view objects high in the sky without lying on your back.  Some people do use filters in them, but you need binos that accept filters or you'd have to kludge up some filter holders or something.

Although I have several small to medium refractors, I've been surprised at how well a 50mm finder scope works on a lightweight photo tripod.  The finder I use for casual observing has a helical focuser and can accept different eyepieces, so I can change the magnification when I choose.  Plus it's f5, so it's short and super easy to pack for travel.

I'm thinking of maybe trying this one just to see what it can do:

60mm RACI

And it can always be used as a finder if it doesn't work out as a "real" scope.  Just another option you might want to consider.

Conventional wisdom says the best tool to deal with light pollution is a tank of gasoline / petrol to drive to darker skies.

If you do try EAA, the Seestar 50 has been getting very good reviews and it's relatively inexpensive.

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by jjohnson3803

[Lung]

1 hour ago, jjohnson3803 said:

Conventional wisdom says the best tool to deal with light pollution is a tank of gasoline / petrol to drive to darker skies.

If it were just me or my kids were teenagers then that would be simple, I have some fantastic places within a reasonable drive, but for 6 and 8 yos,
particularly on school nights, that's not an option for the time being.

This is why I want to try and maximise what we have available now (small back yard, loft with windows) and then develop to other kit when able.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Lung

[Mal22]

3 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

If you decide to go down the EAA route then the lowest cost and most simple option is probably a ZWO SeeStar S50. I've not used one but they are well regarded and a simple way to get in to EAA.

 

Second this. @Lung you say that the children are unlikely to want to spend too much time outside at night, and that budget isn’t a big concern. The Seestar S50 means you can plonk it outside with minimal (almost no) set up, and then sit inside with the children, controlling it with and displaying it on your phone/tablet screen. It will align itself and find objects in the sky, that you pick from a list of what’s in view that night. and it comes with a built in light pollution filter. 

[Mal22]

I should add, that unfortunately there is little to no value in astronomy through a window, open or closed. If the window is closed then viewing through glass will heavily distort the view, and if the window is open then the heat waves escaping out of the window into the cooler air will make for very wobbly moon/planets etc, like they are underwater. 

[Lung]

I had a chat to my son about what his favourite things are about space, and it was a resounding "planets!" in reply, so it looks like I'm after something that will let us see the planets. I think this fits with being in a city where DSOs will be harder to see anyway.

Would a 102 Maksutov fit this bill? Or something like an Evostar 102?

On the Seestar (or other similar scopes) I think to begin with I'd rather have something with manual controls to begin with. Is there such a thing as dual controls, like a Go2 mount but with hand controls too so it can be used with no power or plugged in?

[Ricochet]

1 hour ago, Lung said:

Would a 102 Maksutov fit this bill? Or something like an Evostar 102?

I think a maksutov will be better than an achromat for planetary but have a narrower maximum field of view for wide star fields. The 127 mak would perform better than the 102 and seems to be the Goldilocks size for the mak design. 
 

1 hour ago, Lung said:

Is there such a thing as dual controls, like a Go2 mount but with hand controls too so it can be used with no power or plugged in?

The skywatcher AzGti mounts are controlled from your phone or tablet but have dual encoders so you can move the scope manually without losing alignment. However, I’ve not used one to know how well they work in manual mode. Both the 102 and 127 Maks are available on this mount. Note that some of this range are AzGte rather than AzGti, which means that they don’t have the dual encoders.

I think you will need to go outside for the phone to pick up gps in order to use the goto system and aside from the window glass degrading the view, the chances of a planet being in the right place to view from inside through a window is very small. Using a goto system with children is often recommended as it means you can move quickly from one target to the next without the children getting bored waiting for you to find it.

If you don’t want a full goto system then the Celestron Starsense Explorer is a manual system that you can attach your phone to to aid with finding objects. However, the mounts are not so well regarded and there are no maks in the range. 

[RT65CB-SWL]

A Maksutov is perfect for lunar and planetary observation. Just need to remember that a dew shield is a ‘must have’ accessory… and they do not come supplied.

Being compact they do not take up a lot of storage space and can be fitted in a padded backpack plus a star diagonal, a few e/p’s and even allowed as a ‘carry on’ aboard aircraft.

Image above of my ‘re-modded’ Meade ETX-105 plus dew shield, mounted on a DwarfStar mount and Manfrotto PROB tripod. This is my grab & go setup.

[Starfazed]

My experience of children is they can't "do" binoculars, can't get convergence or cope with each eye getting an image, can't close one eye, can't hold steady as too heavy.

Living in a Bortle 8 city limits when can be seen, though I can carry my scope to the nearby park for planets and a few nice clusters. I went for a goto as I haven't time now to learn my way around the sky and the kids don't want me wasting time fumbling in the dark for obscure objects. I guess a starsense would make equal sense, for me tracking was more important than liveview of where in the sky I was. 

Deep sky objects are limited to Friday evenings (as no school next day) and a 30-40 min drive to a fabulous Bortle 4 site. Meal along the way, sleep 8n car coming back....can't do too often and most Fridays are cloudy or full Moon. But makes for a special evening on occasions. Pleasantly surprised myself to realise a cheap 6 inch reflector can show Uranus and Neptune so clearly.

[Lung]

Thanks again all. It does sound like a Mak is the way to go. The 102 is fine budget-wise, while the 127 is a bit more of a stretch once you add in mount, tripod etc. Will the benefits of the 127 over the 102 be noticable to a total beginner like me, or are they the kind of thing you'd need experience or different eyepieces etc to appreciate or make use of? There seems little point spending the extra now if the larger scope only comes into its on by spending more on accessories, or by having used it for several years first, but conversely if it really improves things for a beginner then it becomes worth the extra money from the outset.

With that in mind, is there a recommended 102 and/or 127 Mak to go for? I see there's the Skymax, the Messier and I think a Celestron, so do any of those stand out or is a case of finding the best deal on any of them? Or have I missed one from a different company i should be looking at?