Total City-Based Beginner

[Lung]

4 hours ago, Bivanus said:

@Lung maybe give this a good thought before buying.  Yes , the Mak IS a good scope but not necessarily a good beginner scope , and a GoTo mount IS the bee's knees - IF you can get it to work...As I explained to another colleague : ask yourself if you want to cry due to the beauty of the stars or due to frustration at trying to use your gear.

From all the telescopes I've seen on the thread I incline towards the 102mm refractor on the AZ3 manual mount from FLO. Easy to set up, rather simple to use with intuitive controls , wider field of view and if the bug bites you can easily move the tube on a better mount with GoTo , buy eyepieces , filters , cameras for EAA etc.   https://www.firstlightoptics.com/beginner-telescopes/skywatcher-startravel-102-az3.html

I live in a rather large city , light pollution galore. Yesterday I had a wonderful session with my 102mm refractor looking from my access road at the Moon , Jupiter , Orion Nebula and today I am waiting for the clouds to pass and for the Orion Constellation to rise higher to also have a couple of pictures . Most likely NASA will not be interested in my work , but  it's fun for me and my family and I consider that's more important. 

Thanks for this. It was the AZ GTI mount that peole have been recommending with the Skymax, rather than the Goto. The AZ GTI allows manual operation as well as powered. It can also be converted to Equatorial, so it seems very versatile.

[PeterC65]

The AZ GTi is a GOTO mount. It can be controlled from a smart phone or tablet app, or from a laptop, or even with an optional hand controller, and I believe it also has freedom find which means you can unlock the clutches and move it manually. But if my AZ-EQ5 is anything to go by it will only remember its position if moved manually while also powered up.

It is a very well regarded mount and has lots of users on SGL who can provide advice.

 

[Lung]

15 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

The AZ GTi is a GOTO mount. It can be controlled from a smart phone or tablet app, or from a laptop, or even with an optional hand controller, and I believe it also has freedom find which means you can unlock the clutches and move it manually. But if my AZ-EQ5 is anything to go by it will only remember its position if moved manually while also powered up.

It is a very well regarded mount and has lots of users on SGL who can provide advice.

 

Yes, sorry, I wasn't specific enough. Skywatcher sell both the AZ GTI mount but also a Go2 mount which doesn't give the manual option via disengaging the clutches and is the equivalent of the Celestron Astro Fi 127. As it happens I just noticed the Astro Fi 127 is £300 at the moment, almost half the price of the AZ GTI for the same scope but a less versatile mount. It's a very tempting price though.

[Elp]

A few things to consider here:

1. Have you any experience using a telescope, especially one with a relatively long focal length? The azgti is a good price to performance mount, it however starts to struggle to track at long focal lengths and using high power eyepieces (you'll need to intervene a lot to nudge it to keep a planet in view) and unless you're familiar with the skies and have a bit of patience, the goto won't be straightforward out of the box and some manual centering will be required, this is where practice comes in. The mount is fine once you get used to using it. For a beginner, I would not recommend a long focal length telescope at all though.

2. Why I don't recommend long focal length. Finding objects is difficult, planets not so much but from naked eye viewing you can normally only see Mercury if the sun isn't nearby which is pretty much most of the time, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, obviously also the moon. You can align a telescope to find these objects quite easily even manually. With goto you'll struggle to find the other outer gas giants if the scope can even resolve them well with the typical atmospheric seeing (they'll just be a coloured blurred dot). Once you've seen them a few times, are you going to keep looking at them over and over? You'll soon want to see DSO objects and this is where it starts to become cumbersome. The narrow field of view will make finding objects difficult as you'll be limited in seeing surrounding reference stars, and the azgtis goto isn't the best even when you think it's accurately aligned. I've got three scopes currently, and the short FL refractor gets the most use because it can frame a lot of the things you can see well like open star clusters, constellations and just for general sweeping the skies. For DSO searching and viewing a scope around 600-800mm FL will be better (easier and enjoyable to use) than one 1500mm (the latter comes into play with experience when you are familiar and want to see stuff in greater resolution so SCTs/Maks/RCs/newts-dobsonians start to come into play). A refractor will also be pin sharp (as will a Newtonian), I've enjoyed super sharp views of Jupiter and Saturn at 360mm FL plus a Barlow lens even though Saturn was only around 2-3mm actual size in the eyepiece. My 1500mm SCT gets used the least for visual, even Jupiter at this focal length I had a comment "is that it? It's a bit small isn't it". The value of the view comes down to the individual.

3. Are you extremely patient especially with others around you wanting to see through the scope in the freezing cold? A lot of us can spend hours in the midst of winter sitting outside with our gear, even if we struggle to find things. From my experience with others around, they want to see things straight away and expect to see what they see in images, large and lots of detail, if they're expecting this prepare to be disappointed, then they'll go in because it's "too cold". Observing takes patience, the more you look at say a planet the more your brain starts to see, especially if the seeing is not playing ball. Finding and looking at DSO objects requires a critical discerning view if it's faint, a lot of the time you have to use averted vision (using the edge of your vision, not looking directly at the object as likely they'll be invisible if looking direct, a lot of this depends on your light pollution).

From your first post you mentioned binos, did you go down this route or change tact entirely for a scope? If you intend on getting others involved I'd err towards the binos to start due to the low cost of entry and they're highly portable, a pair which can be tripod mounted because movement and vibrations will ruin the experience. If you have an astro meet or star party nearby, going to one of these will be even better before you decide on which way to go, astro owners like talking about their stuff.

[Lung]

11 minutes ago, Elp said:

A few things to consider here:

1. Have you any experience using a telescope, especially one with a relatively long focal length? The azgti is a good price to performance mount, it however starts to struggle to track at long focal lengths and using high power eyepieces (you'll need to intervene a lot to nudge it to keep a planet in view) and unless you're familiar with the skies and have a bit of patience, the goto won't be straightforward out of the box and some manual centering will be required, this is where practice comes in. The mount is fine once you get used to using it. For a beginner, I would not recommend a long focal length telescope at all though.

2. Why I don't recommend long focal length. Finding objects is difficult, planets not so much but from naked eye viewing you can normally only see Mercury if the sun isn't nearby which is pretty much most of the time, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, obviously also the moon. You can align a telescope to find these objects quite easily even manually. With goto you'll struggle to find the other outer gas giants if the scope can even resolve them well with the typical atmospheric seeing (they'll just be a coloured blurred dot). Once you've seen them a few times, are you going to keep looking at them over and over? You'll soon want to see DSO objects and this is where it starts to become cumbersome. The narrow field of view will make finding objects difficult as you'll be limited in seeing surrounding reference stars, and the azgtis goto isn't the best even when you think it's accurately aligned. I've got three scopes currently, and the short FL refractor gets the most use because it can frame a lot of the things you can see well like open star clusters, constellations and just for general sweeping the skies. For DSO searching and viewing a scope around 600-800mm FL will be better (easier and enjoyable to use) than one 1500mm (the latter comes into play with experience when you are familiar and want to see stuff in greater resolution so SCTs/Maks/RCs/newts-dobsonians start to come into play). A refractor will also be pin sharp (as will a Newtonian), I've enjoyed super sharp views of Jupiter and Saturn at 360mm FL plus a Barlow lens even though Saturn was only around 2-3mm actual size in the eyepiece. My 1500mm SCT gets used the least for visual, even Jupiter at this focal length I had a comment "is that it? It's a bit small isn't it". The value of the view comes down to the individual.

3. Are you extremely patient especially with others around you wanting to see through the scope in the freezing cold? A lot of us can spend hours in the midst of winter sitting outside with our gear, even if we struggle to find things. From my experience with others around, they want to see things straight away and expect to see what they see in images, large and lots of detail, if they're expecting this prepare to be disappointed, then they'll go in because it's "too cold". Observing takes patience, the more you look at say a planet the more your brain starts to see, especially if the seeing is not playing ball. Finding and looking at DSO objects requires a critical discerning view if it's faint, a lot of the time you have to use averted vision (using the edge of your vision, not looking directly at the object as likely they'll be invisible if looking direct, a lot of this depends on your light pollution).

From your first post you mentioned binos, did you go down this route or change tact entirely for a scope? If you intend on getting others involved I'd err towards the binos to start due to the low cost of entry and they're highly portable, a pair which can be tripod mounted because movement and vibrations will ruin the experience. If you have an astro meet or star party nearby, going to one of these will be even better before you decide on which way to go, astro owners like talking about their stuff.

Thanks very much for this post. To your points:

1. Nope, zero telescope experience (I have almsot 2 decades of microscope experience though!)

2. DSOs are largely out of the equation for the time being due to light pollution.

3. Various people in this thread (and elsewhere online) suggested binos were not the best way to go for kids, particularly as my 6yo son is a hardcore planet fan.

I do have a local astronomy club, so i'll be looking to go along to a meet when they start up again in the new year.

[Elp]

For planets, if you want them large in view, you need the focal length, which usually goes hand in hand with aperture increase. 

If binos are "not for kids" I don't see how a telescope will be any different as it'll take longer to "setup and get things in view" and only you can judge if your child has the patience to be patient along with you. Binos won't be good if using free hand if this is what people were referring to, use them on a tripod it's the same as a telescope, maybe better in that youre using two eyes rather than one (it's surprisingly difficult viewing through a telescope if you don't have the practice, even I struggle to keep one eye open and the other closed and usually end up keeping both eyes open but cover the non observing eye), they obviously won't be good for seeing detail on a planet due to the short FL, but you can see Jupiter and it's four main moons through one, though small.

[Cosmic Geoff]

My first GoTo scope, also a big step-up from a supermarket refractor, was the Celestron 127mm Mak SLT, a GoTo scope.  It took me one evening to master the GoTo system and after that I found the GoTo a massive advantage for finding things in semi-urban skies.  I did not consider its field of view to be a problem.  I did also buy a 102mm f5 Startravel for a wider field of view, but rarely used it till I realised I could do EVAA imaging with it.  

I have never had any use for manual aiming - I always set the GoTo and let that move the mount.

I still have this scope (the Mak) and its performance on planets (for its size) is excellent.  Essential accessories: a dew shield, an external power pack, and better eyepiece in the range 8 to 10mm.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Cosmic Geoff

[Lung]

My original post was talking about mounted binoculars but maybe that wasn't clear enough.

If it was just me I'd get some 10x50s or 15x70s and spend a few months learning the sky before buying anything else. My son in particular would lose interest rapidly with that I fear. Being able to see the rings of Saturn, even if tiny, might be just the ticket but I guess either way it's a bit of a punt.

This was another reason for heading down the tech route, as we could set up a mobile phone to take video and they could control the scope from indoors, on a screen instead of the eyepiece.

The £300 Astro Fi 127 gives room in the budget for some 10x50 Opticon Adventurer bins with tripod, so we could try both options, see which (if either) stick, and go from there.

[Bugdozer]

17 hours ago, Bivanus said:

@LungGoTo mount IS the bee's knees - IF you can get it to work...As I explained to another colleague : ask yourself if you want to cry due to the beauty of the stars or due to frustration at trying to use your gear.

This is a bit hard on GoTo mounts. I have never had any problems with using mine, in fact I have cried more in frustration at not being able to find an object by manually hunting about than I ever have at setting up my scope to automatically find things. 

[Elp]

49 minutes ago, Lung said:

This was another reason for heading down the tech route, as we could set up a mobile phone to take video and they could control the scope from indoors, on a screen instead of the eyepiece.

If you want to do this get a ZWO Seestar. Nothing else for this price will come anywhere near what this can do, imaging planets will be limited due to the FL, but you'll see much much more dso wise, and to be honest for kids these days I feel this will be far more interesting to them with their limited attention spans. They'll also enjoy controlling the device, heck they could likely even setup the device themselves if they're slightly mechanically minded (it's literally place down and level, I've seen people just place it on the floor and use straight away via the app).

With a bit of post processing imaging software skill you can even get dedicated astrophotography rig rivalling images out of it, take a look at the various threads on this site.

[Lung]

I had discounted the Seestar due to its small aperture, and was hoping a similar kind of setup might be achievable via a WiFi mount on a 127 and streaming an image via a smartphone. I'll watch some videos of the S50.

[Elp]

I wouldn't discount small aperture, some of my best images have been taken with camera lenses as opposed to through telescopes.

[Lung]

I watched a couple of videos on the S50 by Cuiv and he states it's absolutely not for planetary astronomy (can see Saturn's rings but barely, Jupiter and it's moons but no red spot or storms belts), but it's great for solar, lunar and DSOs.

[bosun21]

Binoculars won't be any good for the planets as they are simply too small to be seen properly at that low of a magnification. The Seestar while being a good introduction to astrophotography is also not suitable for the planets due to both its aperture and focal length. I rekindled my astronomy journey also with a 127 Maksutov go to many years ago, and I was extremely happy with it as an only scope for over a year. The go to is invaluable if you don't know your way around the sky and is a massive time saver. Regarding their relatively small FOV also didn't bother me as I found more than enough targets to keep me occupied throughout that time. I have a pair of high resolution binoculars which are 15x70 and Saturn through them looks like a tiny disc with ears.

[Jules Tohpipi]

Just to add support to the above recommendation, the small field-of-view 'issue' for Celestron/Sky-Watcher Maks is often greatly overstated and repeated with little thought. I say that in the specific context of half the world being happy to recommend manual 8" f/6 dobsonians to complete beginners - yet it's a telescope whose FOV is barely wider than the Maks in question. As the yellow and red rings in the chart below shows.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Jules Tohpipi

[Elp]

Seeing Pleiades in a 300-400mm scope full view is a sight to behold. You don't get the same experience with this target at long focal lengths even though you will resolve more faint magnitude stars.

The choice of scope will be greatly determined by the targets wanting to be seen as well as budget. OP is erring towards planets so longer FL is the way to go.

[PeterStudz]

I’ve had lots of experience using a smartphone to take images but any live view of the planets is going to be disappointing. Even with a dedicated planetary camera a good planetary capture also requires stacking and post-processing on a computer (PC, laptop, Mac) for a decent final image. A smartphone will get decent live images of large bright objects with good contrast - basically the moon and the sun (if there are sunspots) - but that’s about it. Anything else will also require editing and processing. 

Worth mentioning that Saturn is now low and will soon disappear from the nights sky. Not practically back until the beginning of August 2024. By then the rings will be very edge on, so not the best view. Jupiter around until late February but after that you’ll have to wait until August too. All of astronomy, whatever you do, requires patience, practice and time.

[Chandra]

It is always difficult to decide to buy a first instrument for observing the sky, especially when we start from zero experience with them. For this reason, it is usually recommended to start by attending star parties, where you begin to gain field experience alongside more experienced observers, and you have the opportunity to learn about and visualize through different optical designs. On the other hand there are the children. I believe that most of us here show interest in astronomy at a very early age, which proves that this can be a hobby that lasts... In any case, curiosity in children is something common and extensive, and it does not mean that as they grow they will keep alive or cultivate all the concerns previously shown, but astronomical observation is so stimulating, deep and I would say even formative of the spirit, that it is always worth trying to feed and encourage in children their natural curiosity.

From here, I allow myself to list some aspects that I think you should consider, apart from all those mentioned by our fellows.
- There is no such thing as a "perfect observation instrument." With the use of any of them you will find that there are advantages and disadvantages, but you must consider that the one you decide on, as long as it meets minimum quality standards, has the potential to provide you and your child with knowledge and satisfaction. In this sense, remind you of the motto of every stargazer that the best observing instrument is not the most expensive, nor the largest, nor the most sophisticated, but rather the one that is used the most.

- You should always mainly consider the conditions of what will be your usual place of observation: its width, thermal gradient at nights, humidity, time for dedication, quality of the sky, accessibility to the place, etc. All these factors are parameters that play a little more in favor or against the size of the configurations and optical designs. Generally, telescopes on AZ mounts with an aperture of up to 150mm are the best adaptable to any variable of the aforementioned parameters. Binoculars are also an option but always on a mounting; It must be taken into consideration that observation with them from about 45º above the horizon, if they are not angled (and that makes them very expensive), is somewhat uncomfortable due to the position of the neck.

- AZ GoTo mounts are ideal for urban observers who do not have much time, or who cannot dedicate it due to weather conditions. You have been told that when there are children, time to locate objects is crucial, and it is true, children are not usually characterized by their patience. In this sense, refractors (3" to 4", for example) with medium focal ratios (F/6 to F/8) are ideal for handling in these conditions, due to their short acclimatization time and good performance on low-end mounts. The mount that has already been mentioned AZGTi is very interesting at a very reasonable price, but you should keep in mind that when you use it manually it does not have slow motion controls, which can make it difficult to use in that mode. Automatic tracking of objects is also highly advisable when observing with more people. The option of Star Sense (Push To) technology may also be interesting, although in this case the tracking must be done manually.

- The planets usually look small with respect to the field of view, since only on nights with good seeing (which are normally less than we would like), and as long as the optics allow it, is it possible to exceed 150x with an acceptable viewing quality. Think that you can already obtain this increase in decent conditions with an aperture of 80-90mm. The nebulae also do not present the colors of the photographs, the sky in visual astronomy is basically black and white and only with huge apertures (from 18") under pristine skies is it possible to begin to intuit colors in the gas and dust clouds. We must be very aware of what and how things look through amateur instruments, however, the aperture is what primarily determines the level of detail visible in objects.

- Finally. There has been talk of EAA. It is a fairly new discipline that has been implemented in parallel with the development of CMOS and CCD sensors, I would say that it is complementary to visual observation, but does not replace it. Over time I think it is an interesting option for any observer, especially urban or semi-urban, but I would not recommend someone who is starting out to do it through the EAA, since this involves software programs (Sharpcap or Firecapture), computer, camera, use of Barlow, maybe flip mirror, if you want to achieve more precise focus, power supply, cables... The setup gets a little complicated.

[Elp]

39 minutes ago, Chandra said:

EAA: The setup gets a little complicated.

It doesn't have to be.

When I do it all I use is an Asiair mini, powered by a usb power bank (like the mobile phone charging types, can be small and pocket sized) and the ZWO planetary camera. The only additional thing needed is spacer extension tubes for you to get the correct backfocus if imaging straight through the focuser, if not and it's the type of planetary camera which has a t adaptor nosepiece you can simply insert it into a diagonal instead of an eyepiece.

Simple and easy to do. You can even plate solve with this setup so you know what your scope is pointed at.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Elp

[Jules Tohpipi]

51 minutes ago, Chandra said:

The mount that has already been mentioned AZGTi is very interesting at a very reasonable price, but you should keep in mind that when you use it manually it does not have slow motion controls, which can make it difficult to use in that mode.

Without detriment to the many excellent points in your post, I'd just like to highlight one feature of the AZ-GTi which is something of a hidden gem - rendering slow-motion controls unnecessary. That's its 'Point and Track' feature. You manually push the scope to your target, select 'Point and Track' in the app, and finally tell the app which target you have pushed it to, then the AZ-GTi  will track it. The killer feature here of 'Point and Track' is that no pre-alignment is necessary, no star choosing, no point north and level first, nothing. It's especially great for quick grab and go observing of planets with tracking.   

Edited December 29, 2023 by Jules Tohpipi

[PeterC65]

Lots of good advice here ...

A 127mm Mak does have a relatively small field of view. My first scope was a Skymax 127 and I often felt like I was looking through a keyhole. So my second scope was a widefield refractor (432mm F6). Each has its place, depending on the objects you want to observe. As I mentioned earlier, I still actively use the Skymax 127 even though I now have four more scopes!

Up until very recently planetary observation using EAA had been a none starter. What has changed is that SharpCap, the most popular software for EAA, has added a feature to live stack and image enhance the planets. This has been a complete game changer, but it's only available with component based EAA kit (separate scope, camera, and the other bits and pieces), and not with the smart scopes (at the moment).

It is certainly the case that EAA lets you see WAY MORE than visual. I've heard it said that EAA is like a x3 increase in aperture but that seems like a gross underestimate to me. I have a 30mm aperture refractor that I use for widefield EAA for example, and I can see the Horsehead Nebula with it, in colour.

While you and your kids will be thrilled to observe Jupiter and Saturn (I still am), they are just two targets and can't be seen for half the year. So you will probably want to be able to observe other things too.

 

[Lung]

 It feels like it shouldn't be too hard take a cheap Goto-enabled base (eg £300 Astro-Fi 127) and turn it into a DIY smart scope. If it already has some form of goto software for controlling it remotely, wouldn't it just need a camera/smartphone setup to output the image to a PC for turning the raw footage into images that can be processed? That would give a rig that can be used for visual or auto imaging depending on what circumstances allowed that night.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Lung

[PeterC65]

27 minutes ago, Lung said:

 It feels like it shouldn't be too hard take a cheap Goto-enabled base (eg £300 Astro-Fi 127) and turn it into a DIY smart scope. If it already has some form of goto software for controlling it remotely, wouldn't it just need a camera/smartphone setup to output the image to a PC for turning the raw footage into images that can be processed? That would give a rig that can be used for visual or auto imaging depending on what circumstances allowed that night.

Yes it just needs a camera connected to a laptop and some software (SharpCap). SharpCap is Windows software and isn't available for other operating systems. It will connect to most astro cameras (natively), to DSLR cameras (via ASCOM), and to webcams (natively), and it will process a folder full of live frames put there by a camera. So you just need a method for getting your camera to do one of these things (a basic astro camera is the way to go).

 

[Lung]

Svbony make the SC001 camera which has it's own WiFi hotspot and should allow video capture remotely. I'm guessing there are other similar cameras.

[bosun21]

That’s a camera for daytime use with a spotting scope. I can’t see the specs for it but I highly doubt it would compete with an astro camera.