Recommendations for a starting astrophotography setup (€2000)

[StuartT]

A friend of mine wants to start doing astrophotography (mostly DSOs and a little lunar perhaps). He currently has no equipment but he is technically competent and a very practical guy. Would you be able to suggest a setup for him costing up to €2000? I imagine that a newt and an OSC is going to be the most affordable option, but can a decent mount be fitted into that budget too?

Thanks so much 

[Elp]

It's possible, especially if most of it is sourced used. I've got two types in a similar budget (but probably more closer to 3k), a camera lens setup or a 60mm refractor setup. Both work on an AZGTI in EQ mode, fully autoguided and asiair controlled. Do not underestimate camera lenses, the Samyang 135mm beats a lot of telescopes for AP.

[ONIKKINEN]

EQ5, PDS130, autoguiding trinkets would fit the budget. Not much left for a camera, but some second hand deals could work for that.

I would be inclined to suggest an HEQ5 instead and maybe start with lunar first and some short exposure DSO unguided to get going. Wont be too long until guiding turns out to be necessary but that could be another purchase if the budget doesnt stretch further at the moment.

Or alternatively lean more into the DSO use and get a small refractor that can work well with a smaller mount. Something like a redcat51 or an Edph 61 and an Az-GTi. Or a Samyang 135? Many options, all fairly expensive though...

Good idea to check what the second hand market has to offer for sure.

[StuartT]

45 minutes ago, ONIKKINEN said:

EQ5, PDS130, autoguiding trinkets would fit the budget. Not much left for a camera, but some second hand deals could work for that.

I would be inclined to suggest an HEQ5 instead and maybe start with lunar first and some short exposure DSO unguided to get going. Wont be too long until guiding turns out to be necessary but that could be another purchase if the budget doesnt stretch further at the moment.

Or alternatively lean more into the DSO use and get a small refractor that can work well with a smaller mount. Something like a redcat51 or an Edph 61 and an Az-GTi. Or a Samyang 135? Many options, all fairly expensive though...

Good idea to check what the second hand market has to offer for sure.

thanks for this. I like the idea of the HEQ5 (as that has GOTO, unlike the EQ5, correct?). Is the HEQ5 accurate enough for imaging?

Which camera would you recommend? 

[vlaiv]

How flexible is the budget?

€2000 sounds like a lot, but once you start listing things - it piles up rather fast.

HEQ5 is very decent mount to start AP with. I'd add something like 130PDS just for cost saving, although it is question if one saves all that much over small refractor since you need to include coma corrector.

Here is my list:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-130p-ds-ota.html

£240

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/equatorial-astronomy-mounts/skywatcher-heq5-pro-synscan.html

£1040

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/guide-cameras/zwo-mini-finder-guider-asi120mm-bundle.html

£205 (at the moment)

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-533mc-pro-usb-30-cooled-colour-camera.html

£770 (at the moment)

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/coma-correctors/skywatcher-coma-corrector.html

£170

Total so far: £2425

We are already about 25% over the budget and I'm pretty sure that there will be some bits and bobs needed as well. This is also without laptop/computer to control all of that.

You can certainly save some cash by getting second hand stuff. Two immediate cost savers are to go for DSLR instead of dedicated astro camera and get EQ5 mount, although - I would not advise trying to save money on mount - it is very important for good imaging experience (and even stock HEQ5 leaves a lot to be desired).

 

 

[Elp]

The gso coma corrector works well with the 130pds and roughly half the price of other typical coma correctors. Even with a refractor you'd usually have to factor in a field flattener/reducer.

I'd also ask them what their nightly weather is like, if it's breezy which my experience typically is like, a Newtonian will move a lot unless the tripod is set in stone.

[Miguel1983]

Good suggestions from Vlaiv.

Just like to point out that no filters have been added yet, so the budget of €2000 is a very hard target to aim for.

If you swap the HEQ5 for a SW Star Adventurer GTI you would gain some budget back but at the cost of having no more room to grow and being limited to a small wide field refractor.

Also, I have no idea how the adventurer GTI is for AP.

The HEQ5 is sure bet, no question.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Miguel1983

[Elp]

For a similar price to the HEQ5 they could also consider an ioptron hem15 which I have, it works well and being able to move a setup around without counterweights is a bonus.

[ONIKKINEN]

1 hour ago, StuartT said:

thanks for this. I like the idea of the HEQ5 (as that has GOTO, unlike the EQ5, correct?). Is the HEQ5 accurate enough for imaging?

Which camera would you recommend? 

Without guiding, not really. But my reasoning here is that a beginner will have their hands full learning the ropes for a good while, and the first few images will probably suck anyway (i know mine did, still do sometimes) so the lack of guiding is at first just one of many things to improve on.

For a camera we are at a budget where compromises have to be made. Second hand DSLRs are quite cheap and will get an image of a DSO, even if dedicated astro cams are much better. If they got a 120MM for guiding they could also this for lunar, so little money wasted in the end.

Vlaiv made a good estimate on a starter set above, which is a bit over budget but substitute the 533 to a DSLR and its not so bad. The Quattro 6 might be a decent option just because it comes with a coma corrector, although its probably not the best lunar scope.

Edited November 29, 2023 by ONIKKINEN

[vlaiv]

5 minutes ago, Elp said:

For a similar price to the HEQ5 they could also consider an ioptron hem15 which I have, it works well and being able to move a setup around without counterweights is a bonus.

How do you find that mount?

I'm a bit skeptical about it, but maybe my skepticism is unfounded?

Here is what I base it on:

1. Only RA is strain wave drive. DEC is worm - supposedly without backlash - maybe spring or magnetic loaded worm gear?

2. No mention on reduction / ratio of RA gear. I can only assume that it is not very good. This is based on 6 degrees per second slew speed, and the fact that strain wave drive is used in such a small package.

Based on size of mount and say module 0.5 gearing (which is very small) - 80mm diameter will have 160 teeth and that is 160:1 at best reduction in strain wave stage - which I'm guessing is the only reduction stage (no mention of belts for RA and something else would still cause backlash and it is claimed to be backlash free). On the other hand we have slew speed of 6 degrees per second. That is 60s for whole rotation or 1 RPM.

Steppers are usually maxing out at about 300RPM - so at best there is 300:1 reduction (look at max slew speed for say EQ6 which is around x800 which is ~3.4 degrees per second. That translates to 0.566 RPM or if we take 705:1 total reduction - 0.566 * 705 = 400RPM max speed of steppers).

If it is truly 300:1 or even 400:1 reduction - that is way too low. That is 0.5"/step at 32 micro steps and with stepper positioning error - I'm doubting you'll get guide RMS below 0.7" or so?

[vlaiv]

Sorry for off topic, but it looks like my analysis by max slew speed is spot on

[Space Oddities]

I find it hard to recommend any equipment without knowing a few important things that, in my own experience, can be limiting factors or bring a lot of frustration in this wonderful hobby. I would tend to go with the setup that brings the less frustration for a beginner.

One of these factors is portability. Does he need a nomad setup, to be able to go to dark sites easily? Or is it a more sedentary setup for his backyard? Traditional mounts can be quite heavy, someone with back problems might not want to drag such setup outside and might get discouraged after some time. Or use it less often, which means learn more slowly, and feel he's not making any progress.

A small refractor on a small mount is more forgiving for a beginner. You're less impacted by polar alignment inaccuracies, periodic error, etc. And at 300-400mm, you have access to some nice targets like, M31, M42, NGC7000, the Heart/Soul... 

The Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer GTi is a great little mount for this, and if he ever upgrade to a beefier setup, he can always keep the mount as a secondary or portable rig. You can't always bring an HEQ5 and Newtonian telescope with you!

A Newtonian is a formidable tool, and I love my 130PDS, but he'd need to get into collimation at some point, which means yet another thing to learn in the whole AP process, as well as some extra accessories. Collimation is not particularly difficult, but it's always good to know before!  And you need a beefier mount, too, which is more future-proof...

As for the camera, a DSLR or mirrorless camera would be my recommendation. It's simple to use, there are a billion tutorials online on how to use them for astro. And the used market is full with these camera. Websites like MPB.com have a lot of choice, and you know what you're buying. If he wants to upgrade at some point or finds that AP isn't for him, he can always sell it back and get most of what he paid for initially. 

A dedicated astro camera is nice, but you need a laptop, install software, drivers, learn how to use them... That's a lot of things you add on top of everything else you have to learn. I wouldn't even bother until he fills he's more confident and wants to continue.

Hope that helps!  

[Elp]

1 hour ago, vlaiv said:

How do you find that mount?

Tbh I find it fine, though I haven't yet put it to the ultimate test of oag guiding over 1000mm. The last session at 200mm guiding was around 0.8-1.2 RMS, but that's from asiair reporting so take that with a large pinch of salt. The subs however were fine and I don't think there was a bad one at all, dithering settling also takes less than 10s or so. It was bought as a go between from the azgti to my gem28 because an important factor for me is having everything portable so it can all fit in one backpack. I tend to use the two smaller ones more for convenience, if it doesn't affect the subs it isn't really an issue for me.

[vlaiv]

26 minutes ago, Elp said:

It was bought as a go between from the azgti to my gem28

Yep, that is what it sounds to me like - upgrade from AZGti. I'm sure it is much better in that role than AZGti is.

[Elp]

Definitely much quieter too.

[WolfieGlos]

Another option for a camera would be the ASI 585mc - currently on sale at £344, it is well priced and would allow widefield imaging with a small refractor; https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/?fov[]=2654||9791||0.85|1|0&fov[]=4549||9791||0.8|1|0&messier=31. It would also allow Lunar with a cheap barlow, I recently purchased the Astro Essentials 2x barlow for £27 ....

Although technically a planetary camera, the 585mc has been reported as being great for DSO. I tried it last week with my 102ED for an hour during a Full Moon; https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/416348-m42-full-moon-test-with-585mc/

Using it with the supplied nosecone adapter, it accepts 1.25" filters; so cheaper again.

If going this route; you'd be looking at (assuming brand new prices from FLO with the current sales) : 

• ASI 585 - £344
• ZWO 1.25" UV/IR cut - £21
• Evostar 72ED - £329
• 0.85 Reducer - £225 or 1x flattener £79

That's £773 for a camera, filter, scope and flattener, or £919 if going with the 0.85 reducer. A Redcat would be more expensive, but it would give a wider FOV. You might need an adapter for it to fit to the flattener, but that leaves at least £1000 for a mount. Food for thought 🙂

 

[StuartT]

Thank you all so much for this advice. SUPER helpful!

20 hours ago, Elp said:

I'd also ask them what their nightly weather is like, if it's breezy which my experience typically is like, a Newtonian will move a lot unless the tripod is set in stone.

19 hours ago, Space Oddities said:

One of these factors is portability. Does he need a nomad setup, to be able to go to dark sites easily? Or is it a more sedentary setup for his backyard? Traditional mounts can be quite heavy, someone with back problems might not want to drag such setup outside and might get discouraged after some time. Or use it less often, which means learn more slowly, and feel he's not making any progress.

 

apols. I missed out this important info, you are quite right. He is on a mountain, 1000m up in northern Italy. Frequent very clear nights. It doesn't need to be portable, I would think he will leave it set up for quite long periods under a Telegizmos, or similar. He's also super fit and an active, outdoors kind of a guy who is used to heavy labour.

Edited November 30, 2023 by StuartT

[bosun21]

21 hours ago, StuartT said:

I like the idea of the HEQ5 (as that has GOTO, unlike the EQ5, correct?)

No, both have go to. The HEQ5 used to come fully go to and manual but now only the go to is produced. The EQ5 is still available in both manual and go to.

[StuartT]

Just occurred to me that ordering this lot from FLO (or another UK supplier) for delivery to Italy would incur import duty. Anyone know of any good EU suppliers as reliable (and well stocked) as FLO?

[bosun21]

Won’t the not paying VAT with FLO balance out the import duties?

[StuartT]

5 minutes ago, bosun21 said:

Won’t the not paying VAT with FLO balance out the import duties?

why would there be no VAT?

[Stu]

5 minutes ago, StuartT said:

why would there be no VAT?

VAT is deducted for non UK sales, but presumably local VAT equivalent is charged on import to Italy? Worth researching all this.

[StuartT]

12 minutes ago, bosun21 said:

Won’t the not paying VAT with FLO balance out the import duties?

 

Just now, Stu said:

VAT is deducted for non UK sales, but presumably local VAT equivalent is charged on import to Italy? Worth researching all this.

Cool!

I just checked astroshop.de and they are significantly more expensive, so when VAT is deducted it would def be cheaper to order from the UK (even with import duty).

Thanks guys!

[ONIKKINEN]

56 minutes ago, StuartT said:

Just occurred to me that ordering this lot from FLO (or another UK supplier) for delivery to Italy would incur import duty. Anyone know of any good EU suppliers as reliable (and well stocked) as FLO?

Teleskop express is very good, as is Astroshop. Both have oddly high pricing for certain items sometimes, so best to look from many sites before purchase.

For pricing FLO is actually still very much competitive with EU suppliers even when i have to pay 24% Finnish VAT + 4.2% when importing (4.2% is EU wide, i think). Not worth it for every item but one shouldnt overlook FLO as an EU customer.

My last (think it was) purchase from FLO was the Paracorr for my newt, which was 50-150€ cheaper than EU suppliers even with all the "extra" fees.

[bosun21]

1 hour ago, StuartT said:

why would there be no VAT?

I am not sure but I just put an HEQ5 in my cart at FLO and put Italy as the destination for the purchase. It was the Rowan belt model costing £1200+ to buy in the UK but only £900+ sending to Italy. Am I missing something?