2600MC or 533mm pro, hear me out

[CCD-Freak]

I have been very happy with the 533MC so I recently added a 533MM to my kit.   The 533MM with a Baader 7nm Ha filter is awesome when coupled to my SS 150 F2.8 Hyper Newt.

This is a screen shot of a single 5 minute sub and a 300 minute image.

I will be having loads of fun if the sky will ever clear.

[Martthebass]

Watching with interest.

I was considering upgrading my 533MCP last year for a wider FOV but ended up getting a Redcat51 to supplement my Stellamira 90EDT  and I’ve been more than happy with the results in terms of increased FOV. I’m now considering adding a 533MM and using it on the 90mm.

Edited January 20 by Martthebass

[900SL]

Shooting in Mono is a whole new ball game and I'm glad I made the switch. 

The weather here has been atrocious (a handful of clear evenings in 5 months) but I had three hours in poor seeing a couple of days ago. Here's the Ha, hope to get Sii and Oiii before the end of the season!

533MM, 90mm f6 TS APO, Antlia Edge Ha filter, 360s x 24, no calibration yet

 

Edited February 12 by 900SL

[geeklee]

11 hours ago, 900SL said:

Here's the Ha, hope to get Sii and Oiii before the end of the season!

Great result so far, the Ha looks lovely!  Good luck with the rest, should be cracking final image.

[WolfieGlos]

How have you been finding mono @900SL ?

My mind has been yo-yoing all year (like you were!) between the 2600mc and 533mm.

I like the appeal of OSC for ease, but I keep yearning for mono too! How are you finding the processing side?

I have the added “complication” of a newborn, 11 weeks old now, and after initially being sceptical of even getting the scope out, I’m now finding I can get it out to image most of the time. But finding the time to process images is very hard to do! I have about 5 targets waiting to be stacked and processed as it stands. So learning mono, channel combination, luminance and narrowband might be a bit too much. But I just wonder if I’ll regret not going mono if I have the chance… 

[900SL]

9 minutes ago, WolfieGlos said:

How have you been finding mono @900SL ?

My mind has been yo-yoing all year (like you were!) between the 2600mc and 533mm.

I like the appeal of OSC for ease, but I keep yearning for mono too! How are you finding the processing side?

I have the added “complication” of a newborn, 11 weeks old now, and after initially being sceptical of even getting the scope out, I’m now finding I can get it out to image most of the time. But finding the time to process images is very hard to do! I have about 5 targets waiting to be stacked and processed as it stands. So learning mono, channel combination, luminance and narrowband might be a bit too much. But I just wonder if I’ll regret not going mono if I have the chance… 

Still not astrodark here so not much to add to the debate Wolfie.. I think I will end up splitting time between the mono and OSC though.  You can't beat mono for narrowband when theres LP or the moon is up. I've not tried LRGB yet

So at the moment it looks like Mono for SHO DSO, LRGB, HaLRGB. Basically an improved SNR and processing is not too difficult in Siril, there are automated sirillic processes to simplify registration, multi session stacking etc. I'll likely use this on the new f8 Newt too, as I'll be binning 2 x 2 

I'll be using OSC for wider angle stuff, either on a Redcat 51 or GT71, either RGB or dual narrowband

 

IF I had darker skies AND more clear nights, I'd probably go for the 2600MC for the bigger framing. But I get a handful of good nights and the moon many well be up, so the 533 mono gives more options.

 

Edited August 3 by 900SL

[Elp]

Once you've used mono comprehensively you'll only use OSC for convenience. Doing RGB mono is ever so slightly sharper and you'll prefer the clean mono data. It's also faster as you're using all pixels on the sensor. Granted post processing is slightly slower but you'll likely be happier with the result, though technically OSC also produces excellent results. Mono is better for imaging through LP with narrowband, and having the choice to image whatever bandpass you want so no software trickery of channel splitting, fake colouring etc but at the cost of additional filters.

[WolfieGlos]

6 hours ago, 900SL said:

I've not tried LRGB yet

Thanks 900SL. Funnily enough I was thinking more of LRGB over narrowband particularly for galaxy season in the new year, and the filters are cheaper to start with! Possibly leaning towards Antlia LRGB-V pro, as I understand they are parfocal so that’s a real bonus. Did you end up taking flats per filter? I’ve read many varying opinions on this.

6 hours ago, 900SL said:

processing is not too difficult in Siril, there are automated sirillic processes to simplify registration, multi session stacking etc.

I’ve never looked into sirilic, I’ve combined LRGB with PI thanks to some free data kindly provided by Olly, but only the once and I can’t help but figure it was a fluke that I got it to work 🙄

6 hours ago, 900SL said:

I'll be using OSC for wider angle stuff, either on a Redcat 51 or GT71, either RGB or dual narrowband

That was initially my thinking, I have a SY135 too so the 2600mc would give a nice wide FOV if I swapped it to there, but I could repurpose my 585mc onto the SY135 and use the mono with the 102ED. I don’t know much about it, but I believe mono doesn’t really go well with fast systems? 

5 hours ago, Elp said:

Once you've used mono comprehensively you'll only use OSC for convenience.

That’s kind of my worry, if I don’t go mono then I will probably regret it. It’s more personal circumstances of finding the time to learn mono, capturing, calibrations and then stacking and processing that’s stopping me now. Possibly a little of a mental block at that. Perhaps I’ll have to try YT videos when I get the opportunity. 

[Elp]

1 hour ago, WolfieGlos said:

It’s more personal circumstances of finding the time to learn mono

It's not really any different from OSC, you stack, or multiple stack each bandpass session, stretch slightly (or you can go most of the way), combine with the other bandpasses, assign their respective colours, then finish the image as normal.

[900SL]

Registration is important with mono. Each channel has to be aligned. My first attempt at processing resulted in a blurred mess, as the Ha. OIII AND Sii stacks weren't aligned. Siril does this but you need to understand the manual process. I'm assuming PI does this

[Elp]

I just align manually, simple.

[Budgie1]

17 hours ago, 900SL said:

Registration is important with mono. Each channel has to be aligned. My first attempt at processing resulted in a blurred mess, as the Ha. OIII AND Sii stacks weren't aligned. Siril does this but you need to understand the manual process. I'm assuming PI does this

In PI's WBPP script, if you use the auto-crop function it will align all the channels and then crop them to the same FOV. So, after the stacking process they're already aligned & cropped for you.  

[WolfieGlos]

I think I’m going to go the other way now, and go with the 2600mc pro.

I’ve been framing targets with the 102ed and 533mm/mc, and it results in a very restricted FOV where most targets will require mosaics, which is far from ideal. If I want to crop in, then the wider FOV of the 2600mc can be cropped in in post.

If I had the cash I’d go for the 2600mm and 2” filters but that’s a stretch too far for my budget; I’ve not even spent that much on all of my AP gear to date, let alone spending all of that on a camera, filters and a wheel!

It’s a shame the 2600mm is so much more expensive, because really it’s probably ideal for my setup. But if I want to produce SHO there are dualband filters for S and O now, so perhaps that’s the compromise. It just means that I lose out on the L channel, which really would only be used for galaxies if I understand correctly.

[900SL]

7 hours ago, WolfieGlos said:

I think I’m going to go the other way now, and go with the 2600mc pro.

I’ve been framing targets with the 102ed and 533mm/mc, and it results in a very restricted FOV where most targets will require mosaics, which is far from ideal. If I want to crop in, then the wider FOV of the 2600mc can be cropped in in post.

If I had the cash I’d go for the 2600mm and 2” filters but that’s a stretch too far for my budget; I’ve not even spent that much on all of my AP gear to date, let alone spending all of that on a camera, filters and a wheel!

It’s a shame the 2600mm is so much more expensive, because really it’s probably ideal for my setup. But if I want to produce SHO there are dualband filters for S and O now, so perhaps that’s the compromise. It just means that I lose out on the L channel, which really would only be used for galaxies if I understand correctly.

The FOV and square format had me going backwards and forwards for months between the 533MM and 2600MC. 

I was also waiting to see if Sony/ZWO would release a 4/3 sensor using the same wafer as in the 533 and 2600, like the 294 but without the amp glow. You can use a 1.25" filter set up with 4/3. They haven't  😞

In the end I decided I'd accept the compromises with the 533MM. I tried dual narrowband OSC, it worked well in the right conditions on the right targets, but I wanted the flexibility that mono brings. 

I don't think you'll be disappointed with the 2600MC. The framing and FOV give you more options in that regard, and the low noise/zero amp glow are well worth it. Its also simpler to set up, use and process.

[dodgerroger]

On 19/01/2024 at 15:06, CCD-Freak said:

I have been very happy with the 533MC so I recently added a 533MM to my kit.   The 533MM with a Baader 7nm Ha filter is awesome when coupled to my SS 150 F2.8 Hyper Newt.

This is a screen shot of a single 5 minute sub and a 300 minute image.

I will be having loads of fun if the sky will ever clear.

I don’t mean to high Jack this thread but was size filters are you using with this rig??

[CCD-Freak]

3 hours ago, dodgerroger said:

I don’t mean to high Jack this thread but was size filters are you using with this rig??

I used a ZWO filter drawer and a 2" Baader Ha filter with an ASI-533MM pro for that image. 

I recently acquired a set of Baader 1.25" SHO filters that are good to F2 and I will be trying them with EFW to see if there is any vignetting with the F2.8 Hyper Newt.

Edited August 12 by CCD-Freak

[WolfieGlos]

On 11/08/2024 at 08:22, 900SL said:

The FOV and square format had me going backwards and forwards for months between the 533MM and 2600MC. 

I was also waiting to see if Sony/ZWO would release a 4/3 sensor using the same wafer as in the 533 and 2600, like the 294 but without the amp glow. You can use a 1.25" filter set up with 4/3. They haven't  😞

In the end I decided I'd accept the compromises with the 533MM. I tried dual narrowband OSC, it worked well in the right conditions on the right targets, but I wanted the flexibility that mono brings. 

I don't think you'll be disappointed with the 2600MC. The framing and FOV give you more options in that regard, and the low noise/zero amp glow are well worth it. Its also simpler to set up, use and process.

If I had a smaller scope then it would have made sense with hindsight.

Funnily enough I did consider the 294, but being older tech and the dreaded ampglow put's me off. Similar for the 1600mm. Being a similar price to the 533mm, it's worth considering just due to the sensor size, but like you say, the 2600MC ticks most of the boxes anyway and I think it'll be ideal.

The mono itch will have to wait !

[Elp]

Amp glow is generally a non issue, I use 183s perfectly fine.

[WolfieGlos]

8 hours ago, Elp said:

Amp glow is generally a non issue, I use 183s perfectly fine.

Having never dealt with it, and from research, it seems some find it an issue and others not. The 183 has a small pixel size of 2.4, which gives 0.87”/p for my setup, which is worse than my current 585. My guiding would never achieve that.

The 294 with its 4.63 pixel size is actually pretty good from that POV. But I think I’m set on the 2600mc now. But a bit more research won’t hurt  👍

Edited August 13 by WolfieGlos
2400MC corrected to 2600MC

[Elp]

I'd avoid the 294mc, the mono would be fine.

[TiffsAndAstro]

4 minutes ago, WolfieGlos said:

Having never dealt with it, and from research, it seems some find it an issue and others not. The 183 has a small pixel size of 2.4, which gives 0.87”/p for my setup, which is worse than my current 585. My guiding would never achieve that.

The 294 with its 4.63 pixel size is actually pretty good from that POV. But I think I’m set on the 2400mc now. But a bit more research won’t hurt  👍

Also, and I can't quantify it, but fixing amp glow in software isn't free. Something will be lost, but maybe not much?

[Elp]

I think you may loose some contrast where the amp glow is, but I've been using 183mm for three years and have never had an issue with the amp glow, it calibrates out cleanly with the master dark. You obviously have to have strong target signal in the area where it appears on the RHS of the sensor to overcome any issues.

Edited August 13 by Elp

[WolfieGlos]

32 minutes ago, Elp said:

I'd avoid the 294mc, the mono would be fine.

Oh? Why’s that? 

[Elp]

31 minutes ago, WolfieGlos said:

Oh? Why’s that? 

It produces a random red/green swirl pattern across the image, it's worse when using an OSC narrowband filter and fairly starkly seen once you do a background extraction. You don't even have to stretch it much to see it.

There's an extensive CN thread about it, in the end it's the sensor glass stuck directly on the sensor which causes it. The mono uses a different model sensor so doesn't suffer from it.

I've used at least half a dozen sensors, the 294mc takes the biscuit and should never have been released in my opinion.

Edited August 13 by Elp

[900SL]

1 hour ago, WolfieGlos said:

Having never dealt with it, and from research, it seems some find it an issue and others not. The 183 has a small pixel size of 2.4, which gives 0.87”/p for my setup, which is worse than my current 585. My guiding would never achieve that.

The 294 with its 4.63 pixel size is actually pretty good from that POV. But I think I’m set on the 2400mc now. But a bit more research won’t hurt  👍

2400MC with the right scope is a photon bucket.