Computers be gone! - New ioptron imate mounts HAE69B, imate astro control box

[Elp]

Interesting new mount, no need for a computer, but a heavy wallet. Also new ioptron control computer.

Let the discussion begin.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Elp

[Shimrod]

44 minutes ago, Elp said:

Interesting new mount, no need for a computer, but a heavy wallet.

Let the discussion begin.

It's way outside my price range, but I do like to see an increasing range of strain wave mounts. I'd be cautious about the computer in the mount - I know all goto mounts have electronics in them, but how easy is it going to be to get a replacement board/module in the event of failure? I just use a laptop and wi-fi/cable currently and I like anything that means I have less setup to do, but it feels like the external box approach (like the Asiair) gives more scope for replacement in the event of issues. At least with iOptron you are not tied in to a single manufacturer ecosystem.

[Elp]

The integrated computer is also an issue of mine. But anything which removes the need for more equipment and I think you're more likely to use it. The weight class of this though is targeted more at a semi/permanent setup however (of which the target audience may already have the required equipment).

It's expensive for sure, so are their normal EC mounts but their performance is supposed to be good (I don't have any major qualms with my two non EC ioptrons).

Edited September 7, 2023 by Elp

[Paul M]

I was just reading up on those and although I'm not on the market for anything in that price range, the spec impressed me.  It's got a good weight capacity, but I continue to struggle with the idea of such a low mass fully controlling a big old rig.

My main stumbling block, if I were on the market, is the integrated computer. It sounds expensive to repair or replace. Maybe back to a piggy-back mini PC if it dies outside the warranty period? But no, probably no external access to the motor control boards, even if they are separate from the computer board.

Perhaps it's one of the growing number of ARM based SBC's that are commercially available, but my gut instinct is that it will be sufficiently custom that it's not so easy. 

[bacherak]

Some of us who have mini computers, would prefer a version without the iMate in my opinion. 

[StarryEyed]

Does this solves a problem.

Puts all your eggs in one basket.

Cables might be a pain but when everything is modular you can swap out, upgrade as necessary. What they should have done is house the computing board in its own case externally so it looks integrated and in such a way that it can be detached brought in the house and plugged into a screen to download images upgrading software etc. The mount might also then be used with or without the computer. Not a big ask considering the price.

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by StarryEyed

[Dark Raven]

It`s not computers be gone, it`s computers be inbuilt. In this case looks like RPI CM4, but it may be custom board as well.
Hear me out... Although I am not a big fan of Stellarmate this can give comparable results for far less money.
Use any mount of your payload or technology preference, slap Pegasus Astro Saddle PowerBox on it and use RPI CM4 8GB RAM / 32GB eMMC for Stellarmate. Why RPI CM4 and not regular RPI4? External antenna support and internal 32GB eMMC.

 

Takes a little bit of effort but certainly doable.

Could cost you a ton of nerves but so will dealing will iOptron or INDI in general. Your tolerance for masochisms may wary. 😁

[Elp]

7 hours ago, Dark Raven said:

It`s not computers be gone

Caught your attention though?

[Peds]

I like that they are bold and are trying new things but I'd prefer having something like a powerbox built in and purchase a separate mini-pc.

Computers and software evolve rapidly and age quickly...

[Elp]

There is that but as long as it's supported and works it shouldn't need to change. The asiair was pretty much perfect at app version v1.9 and I used it for many months/years like this, even across different generations of air, as soon as they introduced a few new things and changed how certain other things operated in v2.0 it's been a lesson in how not to do things.

The issue with these mounts remains that there's more things that could potentially go wrong, and yes a modular approach would have been better, but that introduces complexity for supporting multiple configurations in the field.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Elp

[Elp]

Instead of making a new thread I'll continue with this one as it's a continuation of the imate theme, Asiair and Stellarmate X alternative:

https://www.ioptron.com/product-p/8480.htm

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Elp

[nickp87]

1 hour ago, Elp said:

Instead of making a new thread I'll continue with this one as it's a continuation of the imate theme, Asiair and Stellarmate X alternative:

https://www.ioptron.com/product-p/8480.htm

 

Good little box and not a bad price, I assuming it will work with other brands of mount?

[Elp]

9 minutes ago, nickp87 said:

Good little box and not a bad price, I assuming it will work with other brands of mount?

By the sounds of it, it's just running a version of astroberry inside as it's also using Kstars and ekos so yes. But to clarify you can also use a variety of mounts with an Asiair.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Elp

[nickp87]

42 minutes ago, Elp said:

By the sounds of it, it's just running a version of astroberry inside as it's also using Kstars and ekos so yes. But to clarify you can also use a variety of mounts with an Asiair.

You can, but the asiair is locked into the zwo ecosystem and that's not for me. 

[GrumpiusMaximus]

3 hours ago, nickp87 said:

You can, but the asiair is locked into the zwo ecosystem and that's not for me. 

This is the primary reason that I'm setting up my first astrophotography setup with Astroberry and a Pi 4.  I'm being loaned an Altair camera that my Dad isn't using because he's gone all-in on an ASiair and ZWO cameras.  The ASiair is a great bit of kit (even better if you're using an ARM-based Mac) and ZWO locking users into their ecosystem was a shrewd move.  For those of us that don't mind a bit of tinkering and experimentation, Astroberry looks (from my initial explorations) to be a great solution, albeit it trickier to set up but that's not for everybody!

[Elp]

Astroberry is okay, you really need a computer to use it as VNC over a web browser on a phone screen does not make for a nice experience (this is where the asiair trumps every other solution out there, the UI and UX is so good), the astroberry crashes a lot too, I only used it for planetary though.

[900SL]

I don't get this ZWO locking thing. They just can't be arsed trying to extend the ASI software and drivers to cover other cameras and EAFs, because that is a risk. It's bad enough trying to accommodate the gazillion mounts out there 

[Dark Raven]

4 minutes ago, 900SL said:

I don't get this ZWO locking thing. They just can't be arsed trying to extend the ASI software and drivers to cover other cameras and EAFs, because that is a risk. It's bad enough trying to accommodate the gazillion mounts out there 

ZWO is far from perfect and I am not a fan of closed platforms. Not to repeat myself, I stated my experience here: 

It is great if you have time, fairly permanent setup and weather that permits tinkering often. But I have quite little time that I can devote to this hobby, I am mobile imager and need to drive to dark(er) location and although I work in Tech, out of principle, I draw a line at recompiling kernel to add camera driver. Used it with Pi4 8GB and Plenty of current, even build custom setup around INDI/EKOS/Stellarmate...

It has failed me so many times... I`m sure it works just fine for many. Perhaps in my case it was inpatient user. To be clear, when same hardware is loaded with different software (retro gaming emulators, SkyAware Anywhere or AllSky Camera) it runs smooth under load. Went all in on ZWO, never lost a single night or exposure, never looked back...

[Elp]

2 hours ago, Dark Raven said:

perfect

Zwo app version was fine on v2.0, I used it without issue for nearly 3 years, but v2.1 has introduced issues for me so they're far from infallible. What they have done right however is tailor the UI/UX to near perfection, simple enough to understand and execute via the computer you're likely to keep on you or near you throughout the day (mobile), and as far as I've experienced no one has come close to this same experience. Closed system or not, the asiair has shown the world how it should be done and now everyone is trying to shoulder into that market, even though some solutions existed prior. Adding support for more equipment isn't easy, if you're relying on third party drivers and then your product offering an all in one solution fails whom is to blame? Until these other solutions are as streamlined I don't think they can compete on the same level, but competition leads to progression and evolution which can only be a good thing. More choice is better for the consumer.

[dan_adi]

On 07/09/2023 at 18:37, Elp said:

Interesting new mount, no need for a computer, but a heavy wallet. Also new ioptron control computer.

Let the discussion begin.

Not a good idea to integrate the computer in the mount. Can you easily change it when it breaks?.. because it will

[Elp]

Quite right, the less complexity the better as with anything. Think that's why they also released the imate astro controller box as a separate unit, also as another point of sale item.

[pipnina]

On 10/11/2023 at 21:44, Dark Raven said:

ZWO is far from perfect and I am not a fan of closed platforms. Not to repeat myself, I stated my experience here: 

It is great if you have time, fairly permanent setup and weather that permits tinkering often. But I have quite little time that I can devote to this hobby, I am mobile imager and need to drive to dark(er) location and although I work in Tech, out of principle, I draw a line at recompiling kernel to add camera driver. Used it with Pi4 8GB and Plenty of current, even build custom setup around INDI/EKOS/Stellarmate...

 

It has failed me so many times... I`m sure it works just fine for many. Perhaps in my case it was inpatient user. To be clear, when same hardware is loaded with different software (retro gaming emulators, SkyAware Anywhere or AllSky Camera) it runs smooth under load. Went all in on ZWO, never lost a single night or exposure, never looked back...

I have to be honest my experience with computerising my setup has also been a nasty one.

I used my laptop, which was ok but meant leaving it out there to get damp and it of course used a lot of power.

I used a raspberry pi, which had all sorts of issues with networking, USB bandwidth I think, and even the remote access features being often too slow to be usable

I used a mini PC from ebay, which has worked ok but in the end I found myself using that just to host PHD2 and the indi server, with Kstars on my PC inside meaning I now need two PCs active!

And something goes wrong invariably. Be it the camera not resuming capture (getting stuck) after autofocuses, indi randomly changing the driver for my cam (Risingcam571mono) and now it won't bias above 31ADU (used to use 256 to get the noise all above 0) random UI changes that made the software unusable for a while etc.

Also some odd ritual I have to go through where after booting my setup, I need to unplug the mount, replug. Unplug my ASI120mm mini, blow into the USBC port on the cam, replug, make sure the pegasus astro box advance 12v power hasn't fallen out (it's very loose for some reason). If I don't do all that I get software errors for reason's I couldn't begin to postulate.

I get 1000x better images than when I used a DSLR and synscan controller but it's so much more challenging to get everything going... All for the sake of goto, guiding, auto focus and capture/filter control. How is this not simpler???

[Dark Raven]

10 hours ago, pipnina said:

How is this not simpler???

It can be...

ZWO SeeStar S50 All-in-One Smart APO Telescope & Tripod | First Light Optics

 

[pipnina]

On 13/11/2023 at 10:26, Dark Raven said:

It can be...

ZWO SeeStar S50 All-in-One Smart APO Telescope & Tripod | First Light Optics

 

That is a fair shout. I would prefer to have a more modular / higher end system though.

Maybe since systems like this are still new, there'll be a more expensive one in the future that features say an APS-C mono cam (that lets you add your own 36mm filters) and 70mm flattened f4.5 triplet/petzval or something.