Setup Advice Requested for Progression

[WolfieGlos]

So I’m looking for some advice on my current imaging setup and what I should do to make the next step.

I run a HEQ5, 102ED and a Canon DSLR with an ASI 120mm mini guider, all connected to a laptop inside the house via a usb splitter and a 5m usb2 cable. This is all controlled via Stellarium, PHD2 and NINA. HEQ5 is powered by a battery pack. 

I also have a ZWO EAF, but currently it doesn’t work so that’s also part of the setup.

I’ve recently purchased a 585mc camera with the intention of trying some planetary imaging along with a 2x barlow. If it’s something I want to pursue, then I will be looking to get a more suitable scope. But that’s in due course. I also want to try it for DSO imaging.

My current problem is that the 585mc runs through usb3, and although I have got a powered usb3 hub for it, it simply does not like the 5m usb2 cable. I think is a conflict with my guide camera that’s also connected though the same 5m cable. If I connect the 585mc to the powered hub with the Zwo cable that comes with it, and connect the hub to the laptop (and nothing else - no mount, etc), it works perfectly.

I have all of the latest software and drivers.

I don’t want to have the laptop outside for several reasons, so I’m wondering how I can go forwards? Should I be looking at a 5m usb3 cable? Perhaps a second mini computer outside to run it? Or perhaps another option such as the asiair? I don’t know much about the air, but I assume it could control everything I have here, and I could dispense with the laptop all together? 

I want to get this right, rather than spending money on 1 option only to change again several months down the line. And help appreciated! 

[Elp]

It should work via a hub if everything is connected to the hub via input, then the output from the hub goes to the computer.

From my perspective I didn't want to faff around with all this so went with the air years ago, completely changed everything and made it all SIMPLE with everything you need in essentially what feels like a cohesive piece of software, easily controlled via a phone. I find though the latest firmwares and app have introduced issues, it was working perfectly on app version 1.9, and didn't need changing.

I think you already have what you need though, and a simple trial and error with maybe a new cable will make it work.

[Budgie1]

Your cheaper option, with some future-proofing thrown in, is a powered USB3 hub at the mount, and an active USB3 cable from the hub to the laptop. This takes away any power issues over the distance and any USB2 items will run fine on a USB3 connection. 

The ASIAir is a great tool and you have everything in the one package, I have the ASIAir Mini for my Samyang 135mm setup, but I use a laptop for my main rig. With this I have a Pegasus Pocket Power Box Advance at the mount and this powers everything, including two dew heaters. The mount, camera, focuser & filterwheel are all connected to it's USB ports and then one UBS3 cable goes to the laptop. They're not the cheapest to buy but there's one in the For Sale section at the moment.  

[WolfieGlos]

27 minutes ago, Elp said:

It should work via a hub if everything is connected to the hub via input, then the output from the hub goes to the computer.

From my perspective I didn't want to faff around with all this so went with the air years ago, completely changed everything and made it all SIMPLE with everything you need in essentially what feels like a cohesive piece of software, easily controlled via a phone. I find though the latest firmwares and app have introduced issues, it was working perfectly on app version 1.9, and didn't need changing.

I think you already have what you need though, and a simple trial and error with maybe a new cable will make it work.

Thanks Elp, yeah just been watching some videos for more in depth details about the asiair and the relative simplicity of it seems great. I’m just a bit loathed to spend another chunk of money after having bought a mount, new scope and now a camera since January. Perhaps I’ll try the cable route as you say…

8 minutes ago, Budgie1 said:

Your cheaper option, with some future-proofing thrown in, is a powered USB3 hub at the mount, and an active USB3 cable from the hub to the laptop. This takes away any power issues over the distance and any USB2 items will run fine on a USB3 connection. 

The ASIAir is a great tool and you have everything in the one package, I have the ASIAir Mini for my Samyang 135mm setup, but I use a laptop for my main rig. With this I have a Pegasus Pocket Power Box Advance at the mount and this powers everything, including two dew heaters. The mount, camera, focuser & filterwheel are all connected to it's USB ports and then one UBS3 cable goes to the laptop. They're not the cheapest to buy but there's one in the For Sale section at the moment.  

Thanks Martin. I have a powered usb3 hub recommended by FLO that I picked up from Amazon (it was that or the Pegasus box which you linked!), and my power bank has a uk plug socket so the usb3 hub could be connected to it outside. So like you say, a long usb3 cable like this https://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-cables-leads-accessories/lindy-cromo-usb30-a-to-b-cable.html could work from there. 

[Budgie1]

47 minutes ago, WolfieGlos said:

Thanks Martin. I have a powered usb3 hub recommended by FLO that I picked up from Amazon (it was that or the Pegasus box which you linked!), and my power bank has a uk plug socket so the usb3 hub could be connected to it outside. So like you say, a long usb3 cable like this https://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-cables-leads-accessories/lindy-cromo-usb30-a-to-b-cable.html could work from there. 

Although that's a very good quality cable, it's still only a standard USB3 cable and 5m is about the limit with USB3 before you start seeing connection or power issues. The general advice for USB3 is; anything over 5m then you're better off using an Active USB3 cable. These are powered and have a repeater built-in, which means no loss of power or data.

Before I built the observatory, I ran the 15m version of THIS cable. I had a powered USB3 hub at the mount end & it connected directly into the laptop in the house. Between the laptop & the hub they supplied enough power for the active side of the cable and it would transfer images from my ASI294MC Pro to the laptop at near normal USB3 speeds.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Budgie1

[WolfieGlos]

19 minutes ago, Budgie1 said:

Although that's a very good quality cable, it's still only a standard USB3 cable and 5m is about the limit with USB3 before you start seeing connection or power issues. The general advice for USB3 is; anything over 5m then you're better off using an Active USB3 cable. These are powered and have a repeater built-in, which means no loss of power or data.

Before I built the observatory, I ran the 15m version of THIS cable. I had a powered USB3 hub at the mount end & it connected directly into the laptop in the house. Between the laptop & the hub they supplied enough power for the active side of the cable and it would transfer images from my ASI294MC Pro to the laptop at near normal USB3 speeds.

Oh, sorry, I didn’t realise what you had said. Interesting, I’ve never come across an “Active” cable before. That seems like it would do the trick then, especially if you had it working over 15m! Thanks Martin. 

[Fegato]

I've had lots of issues with USB in the past, and as a result have read up a lot about it (I wheel my rig outside onto a patio, and run power and connections from inside). One thing that does sadly seem to be the case, is that what works for one person doesn't always seem to work for another. As a former IT person, I hesitate to use the word random, but it feels like it sometimes!  

My advice based on my experience as far as it goes is:

1. Unless you really need USB3 (you might need it for planetary, but not DSO work), use USB2.  So actually, using your USB2 cable is the right way to go for guided DSO work. USB3 consumes more and is less reliable when under load, particularly over longer cables shared with other connections.

2. Put powered hubs at both ends if using a long cable.

3. Use good quality cables. Most of my shorted ones are Lindy cables, so not expensive. I can't really recommend a longer cable as I had mixed experiences with them. I had tried 10m, but cut down to 5m. I had no consistent joy with long active cables, but some do.

4. Don't use the ZWO proprietary flat cables. I had regular problems with these, and found many others did too.

5. Maybe not possible for you, but if you can avoid long USB runs altogether, that would be my top recommendation. In the end, I bought a mini PC to sit with my rig (I have it underneath on the tripod tray, not mounted on the scope), allowing me short USB runs. I then connect the mount and the PC with separate 10m Ethernet cables, and run the whole thing from inside with my laptop using Microsoft Remote Desktop (this allows me to use my Macbook too, which is nice).

Anyway, best of luck!

[Jules Tohpipi]

11 hours ago, WolfieGlos said:

So like you say, a long usb3 cable like this https://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-cables-leads-accessories/lindy-cromo-usb30-a-to-b-cable.html could work from there. 

I've recently purchased the 585MC and that 5m Lindy cable from FLO. Chris at FLO recommended the cable. It's working fine with zero issues going from the camera direct to my Lenovo T460S laptop and SharpCap.

To give you an idea of how well the 5m Lindy cable is working.... one of my first tests of the 585MC was to take a short AVI video of the moon with SharpCap. But I forgot to limit the max frame rate in SC. As a result, given the fast shutter speed, the moon video was 32 secs long and totalled 7GB 🤣

The 5m cable didn't bat an eyelid  

 

[WolfieGlos]

5 hours ago, Fegato said:

I've had lots of issues with USB in the past, and as a result have read up a lot about it (I wheel my rig outside onto a patio, and run power and connections from inside). One thing that does sadly seem to be the case, is that what works for one person doesn't always seem to work for another. As a former IT person, I hesitate to use the word random, but it feels like it sometimes!  

My advice based on my experience as far as it goes is:

1. Unless you really need USB3 (you might need it for planetary, but not DSO work), use USB2.  So actually, using your USB2 cable is the right way to go for guided DSO work. USB3 consumes more and is less reliable when under load, particularly over longer cables shared with other connections.

2. Put powered hubs at both ends if using a long cable.

3. Use good quality cables. Most of my shorted ones are Lindy cables, so not expensive. I can't really recommend a longer cable as I had mixed experiences with them. I had tried 10m, but cut down to 5m. I had no consistent joy with long active cables, but some do.

4. Don't use the ZWO proprietary flat cables. I had regular problems with these, and found many others did too.

5. Maybe not possible for you, but if you can avoid long USB runs altogether, that would be my top recommendation. In the end, I bought a mini PC to sit with my rig (I have it underneath on the tripod tray, not mounted on the scope), allowing me short USB runs. I then connect the mount and the PC with separate 10m Ethernet cables, and run the whole thing from inside with my laptop using Microsoft Remote Desktop (this allows me to use my Macbook too, which is nice).

Anyway, best of luck!

Thanks Robin. Our IT manager says the same...but just admits it just seems random at times! "Turn it off and back on again"

When I was in contact with Alex at FLO (very helpful as always) about the 585mc, he also said USB2 should be fine with a powered hub, but as I said once I tried it, it just wouldn't work (over the longer distance that is). My 5m USB2 cable is a Lindy.

The USB3 cable directly to the USB2 port on the laptop worked OK, but not when connected to the Lindy USB2 5m cable. So I've ordered an active cable, and if it doesn't work it'll be returned.

Interesting thought about a powered hub at each end though, that might be a good idea. I'm getting the feeling that by the time I've bought all the cables, hubs.....I might as well just by a mini PC or asiair and go wireless !!

[WolfieGlos]

4 hours ago, Jules Tohpipi said:

I've recently purchased the 585MC and that 5m Lindy cable from FLO. Chris at FLO recommended the cable. It's working fine with zero issues going from the camera direct to my Lenovo T460S laptop and SharpCap.

To give you an idea of how well the 5m Lindy cable is working.... one of my first tests of the 585MC was to take a short AVI video of the moon with SharpCap. But I forgot to limit the max frame rate in SC. As a result, given the fast shutter speed, the moon video was 32 secs long and totalled 7GB 🤣

The 5m cable didn't bat an eyelid  

 

Wow, that's impressive! Another option then, thanks!

[Budgie1]

38 minutes ago, WolfieGlos said:

The USB3 cable directly to the USB2 port on the laptop worked OK, but not when connected to the Lindy USB2 5m cable. So I've ordered an active cable, and if it doesn't work it'll be returned.

Do you have USB3 ports on your laptop or only USB2?

If your laptop only has USB2 ports, there's no advantage in spending the extra to buy USB3 cables because you won't see any increase in data speed, it will still only run at USB2 speeds.

You can still get active USB2 cables to do the same job, only they're a lot cheaper than the USB3 versions.

[Clarkey]

@WolfieGlos I have a couple of active USB 3 cables in the cupboard which are not used. For the price of postage you are welcome to have one. If it does not work you have only lost a few quid. If you want to try PM me.

I used to use them pre- observatory. This with a 12v powered hub rarely if ever gave me trouble.

[WolfieGlos]

Oh wow, thanks for the kind offer @Clarkey - but the one I ordered arrived yesterday. Yet to try it, going to aim for tomorrow but appreciate the offer mate. 

[Clarkey]

Ok, no problem. I was a bit late to see the original post. Let's hope the cable sorts out your comms issues.

[bosun21]

Buy an asiair plus and don’t look back. I had done zero AP whatsoever and even I managed to set up my guide camera, main camera (585MC) EAF and auto focus, multi star guiding. I then watched my images stacking on my tablet while capturing them on a USB3 memory stick. After the session I just downloaded from my memory stick to the laptop for processing. It’s basically plug and play.

[Clarkey]

3 hours ago, bosun21 said:

It’s basically plug and play

As long as you use ZWO only😃

I agree it is easier than PC / laptop / mini PC, but you are tied to ZWO. For the £1000 I saved on the RisingCam IMX571 I could buy a new scope. I also have Sesto Senso focusers..

[bosun21]

4 hours ago, Clarkey said:

As long as you use ZWO only😃

I agree it is easier than PC / laptop / mini PC, but you are tied to ZWO. For the £1000 I saved on the RisingCam IMX571 I could buy a new scope. I also have Sesto Senso focusers..

Yes that’s the downside of the asiair system. You are tied to using ZWO products exclusively. I just happened to have all ZWO products unlike yourself therefore went in that direction. Being in your shoes I would have probably followed a similar path to yourself.

[Elp]

You'd certainly have to assess your personal preferences, I went in knowing I'd likely stick to zwo cameras and I had no intention of introducing further automation (eaf, EFW) as I'm usually with the setup, so the convenience of the air suited me as I also don't need to carry/consider around a laptop. It also helps when at dark sites as you don't need heavier power requirements (the minis if just using the unit with a camera you can power with a usb power bank if desired, as you could with the gen1).

There's a new Stellarmate X which is likely the best compromise between an rpi astroberry (no custom mobile UI so hard to use without a laptop) and the air (easy to use via app), wondering how decent it is (or even compared to the standard rpi loaded with Stellarmate).

Edited September 8, 2023 by Elp

[AstroMuni]

2 hours ago, Elp said:

(no custom mobile UI so hard to use without a laptop)

You could use browser/VNC on ipad or phone 😉  I agree its not as user friendly as custom UI of ASIAir

Edited September 8, 2023 by AstroMuni

[Elp]

49 minutes ago, AstroMuni said:

You could use browser/VNC on ipad or phone 😉  I agree its not as user friendly as custom UI of ASIAir

That's how is used it, but not ideal or any good on a phone. Even on my surface it was glitchy not to mention the input lag (general issue with virtual). I still use the rpi but mainly for planetary.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Elp

[bosun21]

1 hour ago, Elp said:

That's how is used it, but not ideal or any good on a phone. Even on my surface it was glitchy not to mention the input lag (general issue with virtual). I still use the rpi but mainly for planetary.

Did you ever manage to rollback the update on the asiair that caused you some problems? I’m curious as I’m thinking of rekindling some serious EAA. Thanks.

Edited September 8, 2023 by bosun21

[Elp]

2 hours ago, bosun21 said:

Did you ever manage to rollback the update on the asiair that caused you some problems? I’m curious as I’m thinking of rekindling some serious EAA. Thanks.

Yes, been working fine since (pro (now moved on), mini and plus).

[WolfieGlos]

Well on the basis I have a ZWO ASI-120mm mini guider, EFW* and now 585.... I think I'm pretty much tied into the ZWO range 🤣

I tried the active cable at lunch today, thinking tonight looked good for clear skies. First time it was conflicting with the guide camera, and it turned out PHD was looking for a ZWO camera....and it picked the 585 naturally!! So after forcing it to use the 120mm, it worked 🙂 NINA gave me some great images of a tree through the heat haze. It also worked in lieu of the 5m USB2 cable, so at least I can just run 1 cable instead of 2.

And of course...since 4pm....it's clouded over. Total cloud, and with no wind....it looks like that'll be 3 nights running predicted clear skies and nothing but cloud cover instead.

One night I'll get to try this properly, and I'll see how it goes. Currently I'm wondering how easy it will be to focus (with the laptop in the house - so like said above, currently thinking VNC/Facetime), but I guess the EFW should help in this regard. I might upgrade in time to the Air (or alternative), but since posting this I have a gearbox problem with the car.....so that's where the money will be going to now it seems!!!

Thanks all for the input, much appreciated. As always...there's more than 1 way to skin a cat.....

[Elp]

Take the laptop outside? (I know, it's one of the reasons I got the air).

You can put it within a box as a shield to protect from dew or anything but likely it's only outside for a very short while.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Elp

[ollypenrice]

Big second hand desktops with lots of USB ports are quite cheap. Put it on a trolley with damp protection, ditch hubs and mini-computers and live happily ever after.

Yes, I'm old-fashioned - but I also host six robotic imaging rigs so I have some insights into what actually works.

Olly

Edited September 8, 2023 by ollypenrice
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