Modded Canon camera or cooled dedicated astro camera?

[Swoop1]

Bearing in mind that I have certain budgetary restraints at the moment (Head Of Finance looked sternly down her nose at me when asking about kit the other day), I am thinking about the next step for me in deep sky imaging.

I currently have a ZWO ASI290MC and a Sony a6300.

The ASI id brilliant for planetary and lunar but I'm not convinced on deep sky.

The Sony is reasonable on wide field but, exposures in the region of 30 seconds show a lot of noise and glow. 30s is the longest exposure I can use without an intervalometer and I'm not sure an intervalometer would improve things.

I have seen product from modded Canon cameras and I already have a Canon T ring so, is there any major advantage on skipping a modded Canon and going straight to a more expensive but better long term prospect of a cooled dedicated astro camera?

[Elp]

You can get results with anything but having owned a wide variety of cameras, the dedicated astro camera will produce the best results, the noise is "cleaner" or more refined and easier to work with post process, it generally cleans up better when you use a noise reduction algorithm. You don't necessarily need cooled either subject to the temps in your environment. I tend to use uncooled more, with scopes and camera lenses, the 485mc I've got is pretty good, I've used 183mm which other than significant differences in dark frames is very similar to the cooled 183mm end results.

Astro cameras also tend to have better quantum efficiency response than dslr bodies.

A DSLR will however get you likely a larger sensor chip (so larger fov) usually for good prices. Sonys typically have issues for long exposure, don't know if it affects yours but A7's are not easy to use at all.

[WolfieGlos]

I only have DSLRs currently, and having viewed images produced by others from astrocameras I would agree with Elp on the noise front although I’m quite happy with what I can produce. Shutter count is also an issue (long term) depending on your exposures. If you’re shorting 1000 frames per target ( and then flats, bias and darks)… it can really add up. I tend to go for 300s exposures and get 100-150 per target.

I’m happy with mine (800D) but there is currently a modded 1300d in the second hand section of SGL for £200 if budget is an issue. Initially I was thinking of going to a 533mc but the cost keeps me back currently. But on a recent thread Elp recommended a 585mc for planetary but it is also suitable for DSO. It’s uncooled but at £405 it seems a good bet. I’m tempted to switch, still undecided.

Edited July 31, 2023 by WolfieGlos

[Elp]

It's not a fair comparison due to different lenses used but the following will give you an idea of the noise issue, they were shot on the same night, note these are unedited screenshot previews taken via my asiair:

Canon 600D/Takumar 200mm lens at f5.6/Lextreme filter/60s/ISO1600:

Zwo 183mm Pro/Samyang 135mm at T2.8/Likely 60s/gain probably around 200/hydrogen alpha (don't have info at hand right now):

Bortle 7.

Take this comparison with a large tablespoon of salt. The Samyang 135 is one of the best optical pieces you can use for astro compared to a 50 year old lens, it's also running faster than the old lens. Mono is more sensitive. Hydrogen alpha (this may be a luminence image thinking about it as I did both for the same project) also gives extreme clarity and detail in a short amount of time. The astro cam was cooled to minus 10 Dec C.

But if you simply compare the noise levels you can get an idea of what I'm on about. Add in hundreds of images for stacking it will average out so it'll look a bit better, but when you're post processing and applying level stretches and contrast boosts to your image you're also boosting the noise. The more refined this is, the more you can do with the data. It'll also clean up better once you apply a noise reduction algorithm.

Getting an astro camera is not a golden solution, your post processing skills will be more important as well as total imaging time for improved signal to noise ratio. I've seen fantastic clean images taken via dslr cameras. You get out of the equipment, the more effort you put into the data processing, and by tempering your own expectations to your own point of satisfaction.

For me, just capturing the colour with the Canon was a great moment as when I did IC434 via a 2 minute exposure and seeing the horse head on screen. If you can only use what you have at hand, continue to do so. If you have the means to purchase the next step, I don't think you'll regret it, but at the time when I first took images with my 183 cooled, I was a bit perplexed that there was still noise in the image. Only until I started using noise reduction in post processing as all the best images do, did I realise the how. I still leave a little noise in final images, they look too fake without as do daytime photos and video.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Elp

[Elp]

This was the final image, because I used the Canon data as the RGB and applied the narrowband as luminence, the Canon noise remained prevalent in the image:

 

I'll do it again sometime, likely with the Samyangs and pure narrowband mono.

[PhilB61]

My experience so far primarily imaging with a Nikon D7500 unmodded,  no amp glow and very low noise even up tp 300s, I've been blown away with the quality of the images this can produce, but as it's also my daytime use camera was very aware of the rising shutter count especially when taking calibration frames into account.  So just recently purchased a Hypercam AA26C (IMX571 sensor), only managed about 4 hours of data so far, and slightly disappointed, significantly higher noise and less detail with cooled astro camera although much more information in the H alpha areas. But the big difference is that the DSLR images have all been taken in bortle 3/4 skies and the new AA26C images from B6/7 skies no filters used for either. So where you shoot from and what filters you use may have a more significant impact on the final image than what camera you use. I am hoping that when I return to B3/4 skies shortly I can start to see the benefits of the cooled astro camera, if the clouds and rain ever stop!

[Adam J]

On 31/07/2023 at 15:19, Swoop1 said:

Bearing in mind that I have certain budgetary restraints at the moment (Head Of Finance looked sternly down her nose at me when asking about kit the other day), I am thinking about the next step for me in deep sky imaging.

I currently have a ZWO ASI290MC and a Sony a6300.

The ASI id brilliant for planetary and lunar but I'm not convinced on deep sky.

The Sony is reasonable on wide field but, exposures in the region of 30 seconds show a lot of noise and glow. 30s is the longest exposure I can use without an intervalometer and I'm not sure an intervalometer would improve things.

I have seen product from modded Canon cameras and I already have a Canon T ring so, is there any major advantage on skipping a modded Canon and going straight to a more expensive but better long term prospect of a cooled dedicated astro camera?

If your budget is about £300 then this is impossible to beat at the price. But you would need to pick up as a minimum a LRGB set or a Ha filter to get started. 

https://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/propview.php?view=201930

4 year back you would have been looking at £900 for this camera used and £1250 new. 

Don't like that then there is also a Orion 533mc camera on Astro buy sell at them moment too for £550. 

These days you have more options so unless you can only muster £250 max then can't recommend a DSLR any more to start out. 

Adam

[bottletopburly]

Also this bargain https://ensoptical.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=15033

[DaveS]

10 hours ago, Adam J said:

If your budget is about £300 then this is impossible to beat at the price. But you would need to pick up as a minimum a LRGB set or a Ha filter to get started. 

https://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/propview.php?view=201930

4 year back you would have been looking at £900 for this camera used and £1250 new. 

Don't like that then there is also a Orion 533mc camera on Astro buy sell at them moment too for £550. 

These days you have more options so unless you can only muster £250 max then can't recommend a DSLR any more to start out. 

Adam

Looking at the ad, he's including an LRGB filter set, so even more of a no-brainer.

[Swoop1]

Going mono raises another potential problem (for me anyway)- time.

Unless I am mistaken, you need to take three times as many frames to stack than with colour? 

Because I am still working full time, grabbing an hour in the evening before bed is likely to be my imaging routine for the forseeable future.                                       

[ONIKKINEN]

3 minutes ago, Swoop1 said:

Going mono raises another potential problem (for me anyway)- time.

Unless I am mistaken, you need to take three times as many frames to stack than with colour? 

Because I am still working full time, grabbing an hour in the evening before bed is likely to be my imaging routine for the forseeable future.                                       

True, you need to take images through multiple filters to get a colour image in the end. But actually it still ends up faster than colour cameras because mono cameras are more efficient in general, and also because you can shoot all colours at the same time (Luminance). With a colour camera only 1/4th of the sensor is capturing red, 1/4th blue and half green. Luminance uses every pixel for every colour so nothing is wasted.

Not sure what the consensus is in how much faster mono is vs OSC but should still be faster.

[Carbon Brush]

I agree with @ONIKKINEN comments.
However, given you have a short time available....
A DSLR grabs lots of shots without thinking about filters.
You don't need computing power at the mount to handle the camera & filters. no additional power supply, etc.
Once indoors you can start processing. Perhaps a simpler solution to get you going?
In the classified there is a modded Canon inside your budget.
Caveat I have not used this model and I have no affiliation to the seller.
I have used a modded (much older) 1000D.

HTH, David.

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/412217-astro-modded-canon-eos-1300d/#comment-4398526

 

[Swoop1]

32 minutes ago, ONIKKINEN said:

True, you need to take images through multiple filters to get a colour image in the end. But actually it still ends up faster than colour cameras because mono cameras are more efficient in general, and also because you can shoot all colours at the same time (Luminance). With a colour camera only 1/4th of the sensor is capturing red, 1/4th blue and half green. Luminance uses every pixel for every colour so nothing is wasted.

Not sure what the consensus is in how much faster mono is vs OSC but should still be faster.

How do you shoot all colours at the same time? One camera, one sensor 3-4 filters?

[ONIKKINEN]

24 minutes ago, Swoop1 said:

How do you shoot all colours at the same time? One camera, one sensor 3-4 filters?

Its just luminance, which could be a simple UV/IR filter or similar one where all of RGB is passed. You add RGB data to luminance (or vice versa) to create an LRGB image. The luminance image contains all the details of the image, and contributes the most to the overall signal to noise ratio of the combined image.

Common way to combine would be a 3-1-1-1 ratio where luminance equals R, G and B combined, so as an example 2h of L and 40min of R,G and B each. The resulting image would be better than a 4 hour pure RGB image with a colour camera, by how much will depend on many things but still should be better.

[Adam J]

13 hours ago, DaveS said:

Looking at the ad, he's including an LRGB filter set, so even more of a no-brainer.

OMG you are right, OP why have you no bought it yet lol. 

Also mono is much faster in terms of data collection than and OSC due to lum. Just more effort, there is a difference. The effort is worth it. 

 

Adam

Edited August 2, 2023 by Adam J

[Budgie1]

As the others have said, you take more of the Lum than RGB and with the Atik 428EX being a CCD camera you can also BIN x2 "on camera" with the RGB filters meaning even less time is required.

I also use the Atik 428EX because it was a cheap way into mono and, although I haven't had that much time using it yet (mainly because it's Summer and way too light at my latitude) I am pleased with the results.

As an example, here's M51 with 6 hours & 2 minutes integration consisting of:

• Lum = 2 hours 48m
• Red = 1 hour 8 minutes BIN x2
• Green = 56 minutes BIN x2
• Blue = 1 hour 10 minutes BIN x2