224mc vs 482mc

[nitram100]

Hi guys, which if these cameras would be more suited to my scope?

 

Orion Optics 10" 1200mm focal length , f4.8 ratio.

Looking to take planetary images and the some smaller DSO.

Just want to dabble and have a little fun so budget won't stretch to a cooled camera unfortunately.

 

Thanks for any help !

[Neil H]

Hi I use the 224mc great camera but sensor is small so can't always fit target in . Did first use it with my OO VX8L  which is 200x1200 did get lots of movement and that was on a HEQ5PRO mount 

Sorry can't help with the rest of your question but I would get largest sensor you can for the money or may be look at a DSLR that's Astro modded there is one on Astro buy and sell at £180 free postage 

[Elp]

The 224 is an excellent performer for planetary but you'll struggle for DSO (some people have managed it) as it suffers very bad amp glow beyond 30-60s, as above the sensor size is tiny so you'll have a massive crop factor relative to larger sensors. I've used a 485 very well for DSO, uncooled too, also others. Smaller pixels do take considerable time to saturate at long focal lengths so best get a match for the scope.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Elp

[Rustang]

If you decide on the 224mc, I have one currently for sale in great condition if you wont to save a few quid. I used it for planetary, mostly on Mars and with an 8" 1000fl scope and a x2 barlow. I too just wanted to dabble and was really pleased with the results for a planetary beginner! I'm just up the road from you aswell.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Rustang

[CCD-Freak]

I chose the ASI482MC to do some galaxy imaging with a C8 at 2000mm.  Despite bad seeing and a some slight collimation issues the camera did a great job. 

[nitram100]

46 minutes ago, CCD-Freak said:

I chose the ASI482MC to do some galaxy imaging with a C8 at 2000mm.  Despite bad seeing and a some slight collimation issues the camera did a great job. 

Wow that is beautiful. That is 4565?

If I could get anything close to that with my scope I would be chuffed. I'll be using a neq6 pro.

 

Thanks a lot for all of the info guys and above poster offering the 224mc. I think I'm leaning towards the 482, seems a better buy for me.

 

I saw the £180 dlsr on abs, looks very tempting. Are there any downsides to a digital SLR when compared to the 482? Do they need more adaptors etc

 

Sorry for the questions, still learning 😎

Edited May 17, 2023 by nitram100

[Elp]

For one, the quantum efficiency is likely to be higher on an astro camera compared to a DSLR so it'll pick up signal slightly better.

This isn't a proper comparison as different optics were used as well as total time and exposure but it's the same target. I haven't used any NR on either image, you can see one has much finer detail (and noise) than the other.

Canon 600D:

Zwo 485mc:

[Neil H]

Wow looking at photos I know what I would buy 

[nitram100]

Wow thanks Elp, sold on the zwo definitely over the dslr

[Elp]

Note, post processing skills plays more of a vital role than image acquisition, the above however were processed similarly. The Samyang will also capture quicker compared to my Z61 so not exactly like for like comparison. The 600D will have larger pixels which helps with signal acquisition but is let down by other factors, not to say it's a bad camera far from it and many people get excellent results from DSLRs, but best to invest in equipment designed for the task.

[nitram100]

Thanks a lot for the advice. Looking forward to diving in and learning as I go 😎

[CCD-Freak]

I guess I should have put the imaging info with my image. 

NGC4565 (Needle galaxy or Flying Saucer galaxy)  100 x 120 seconds (3.3 hours total) captured and processed with Astroart 8.  with a little denoise and sharpen in Topaz. 

The scope used was an old Celestron C8 ota on a GEM45 sitting on a Todmorden pier guided and dithered every 4th image with Meade 277 (60mm f5) and an ASI290MM using AA8

(The picture shows the scope with an ASI533MM)  Imaged at SRO under low Bortle 2 skies SQM 21.99 typical.

[CCD-Freak]

Moderator please remove this duplicate post.   My ISP did something weird just as I posted.

Edited May 17, 2023 by CCD-Freak
duplicate post

[nitram100]

13 hours ago, CCD-Freak said:

I guess I should have put the imaging info with my image. 

NGC4565 (Needle galaxy or Flying Saucer galaxy)  100 x 120 seconds (3.3 hours total) captured and processed with Astroart 8.  with a little denoise and sharpen in Topaz. 

The scope used was an old Celestron C8 ota on a GEM45 sitting on a Todmorden pier guided and dithered every 4th image with Meade 277 (60mm f5) and an ASI290MM using AA8

(The picture shows the scope with an ASI533MM)  Imaged at SRO under low Bortle 2 skies SQM 21.99 typical.

Amazing setup. Mine will be a bit more humble, just the 10" Orion optics on a neq6 pro. Hope to get some average shots! I'm easily pleased haha

Edited May 18, 2023 by nitram100

[nitram100]

Hi guys so the 482mc that I was bidding on I was outbid.

 

But I did see this on abs, Altair Hypercam 183C Pro for £275.

It has cooling so looks to be better than the 482mc?

Would that be a good buy ?

[Elp]

The 183 sensor is the one I use the most (zwo), it's very capable. Cooling will also be of great benefit. At your focal length you'll likely have to bin in order to boost the signal in the images.

[nitram100]

Thanks very much for all the info, much appreciated.

[Budgie1]

I think the camera you're looking at is the fan cooled version of the 183. This is better than no cooling at all, but is not the same as set point cooling the Altair TEC models have. So just be aware that this may not necessarily be the bargain or the camera you think it is.

Here's the specs for each:

Hypercam 183C Pro

Hypercam 183C Pro TEC Cooled

[nitram100]

On 21/05/2023 at 17:24, Budgie1 said:

I think the camera you're looking at is the fan cooled version of the 183. This is better than no cooling at all, but is not the same as set point cooling the Altair TEC models have. So just be aware that this may not necessarily be the bargain or the camera you think it is.

Here's the specs for each:

Hypercam 183C Pro

Hypercam 183C Pro TEC Cooled

Thank you for the info mate! I had read about fan and Tec cooling.

Would 275 still be a decent deal for that camera on abs? It's right at the upper limit of my budget for a camera at the moment. It would definitely be better than the ZWO 224 and 482 from what I've read!

Edited May 27, 2023 by nitram100

[Budgie1]

At nearly half the new price, it is priced to sell. However, is this really the right camera for your needs?

The IMX183 sensor is getting on a bit now and does suffer from amp-glow. With TEC cooling this isn't an issue because you set the temperature and create a library of dark calibration frames for each exposure length you're likely to use and just reuse them. Without TEC cooling you would need to take darks after every session to get them to match the sensor temperature.

If it were me, I'd wait and save up a bit more to get the right camera for my needs. That way I'm only buying once.

[nitram100]

16 hours ago, Budgie1 said:

At nearly half the new price, it is priced to sell. However, is this really the right camera for your needs?

The IMX183 sensor is getting on a bit now and does suffer from amp-glow. With TEC cooling this isn't an issue because you set the temperature and create a library of dark calibration frames for each exposure length you're likely to use and just reuse them. Without TEC cooling you would need to take darks after every session to get them to match the sensor temperature.

If it were me, I'd wait and save up a bit more to get the right camera for my needs. That way I'm only buying once.

Thanks a lot for your help and info, I think I need to read a bit more and make sure the 183c fan cooled is suitable for my needs as you say.

If the fan cooling on the 183c doesn't help with darks etc

What is the advantage of a fan cooled over a non fan cooled like a 224mc, just allows me to take slightly longer exposures of say 60 secs with less noise? Can I mitigate amp glow by stacking lots of shorter exposures?

 

Thanks again for the help!

 

[Elp]

The whole point of cooling is to ensure any read noise generated from higher temperatures (thermal read noise) is kept to a minimum, by having set point cooling (Tec/peltier) you can also control your calibration images being taken at the same temperature as your lights so any thermal noise signature in the darks is accurate and calibrates correctly out of the lights.

I have the zwo 183 both cooled and uncooled, the cooled is better in that the noise pattern in the lights is less and after an imaging session I only need to take my flats at the time, due to the set point cooling I can take my dark flats afterwards like during the day and still use older dark frames from months ago, so you save potential imaging time or can pack your rig away sooner after imaging. Amp glow is calibrated out with accurate darks, never had an issue with it for either cooled or the uncooled camera.