Visual observation issues -beginner

[thestargaze]

Yesterday I was observing night sky with my 8 inch Dobsonian telescope. I let it be outside for a hour and so to let it get accumulated to the 12 degree Celsius temperature. I only have two eye pieces that came with it, Superview 30 mm 2 inch and 9 mm plössel 1,25 inch. I did have a 2x Barlow 1,25 mm inch but I can’t focus well enough with it. It’s hard to re-find the object. 

 

Anyways, I managed to find Jupiter and it’s moon and saw it very clearly with my 30 mm and 9 mm. I decided to wait a few hours to see Mars and Uranus (and the Pleiades).  I could see the star cluster but Mars and Uranus (couldn’t make out what it was) was highly disappointing. I couldn’t get a clear image, it seemed to be some kind of prickling effect to it. Does this mean I will not be able to see Mars with current equipment? I think I saw Mars with my eye, because it was so redish, but I couldn’t recognise Saturn nearby. 
 

any advice please? 
anything else I should get (eye pieces etc)? 
I am in bortle 5 skys, on my top roof balcony.

 

added some pictures I took with my iPhone 13 pro max. Really hard to take a picture though the eye piece, most of those failed. Exposure time is 30 sek for the most time. Used an small table top tripod for phone. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by thestargaze
Added pictures & spelling, wrote wrong planet

[RobertI]

Hi there and welcome to SGL. Your 8” Dobson Ian is capable of giving superb views of Jupiter, Mars and Saturn, so don’t worry about that. I guess the first question is have you collimated your telescope? Collimation is the first step with a Newtonian telescope and good collimation is essential for making out details on the planets. The other point is that the planets need to be reasonably high in the sky - if they are too close to the horizon you will get too much distortion from the atmosphere. Might explain why Jupiter looked better?

Edited August 6, 2022 by RobertI

[thestargaze]

Actually no I haven’t, I only got an collimation cup. Not sure how to do this practically. Jupiter seems fine but maybe it’s because it’s so large in comparison. 

[thestargaze]

9 minutes ago, RobertI said:

The other point is that the planets need to be reasonably high in the sky - if they are too close to the horizon you will get too much distortion from the atmosphere. Might explain why Jupiter looked better?

This could maybe explain the prickly appearance because it was relative low, I left around 2:00 yesterday (maybe I should have waited). I thought It would be fine because I could see Jupiter when it was relative low. As time passes it moves upward of course. When do I know when it will be less distortion due to horizon? 

[Rallemikken]

12 minutes ago, thestargaze said:

When do I know when it will be less distortion due to horizon? 

Stellarium is your best friend. Turn on the azimuthnet on the bottom toolbar, and click on the clock on the left. Wander through time. I was out with my 8" dob myself last night, trying to catch Jupiter. I live at 65N, so it was only 20  above horizon, rarely gets any higher. To bad, Jupiter and the Orion nebula - two of the best targets for visual and AP, so hard to reach at my location. No pictures, but I could just see the banding on Jupiter if I used a little imagination. Saturn never climbed over my horizon.

[RobertI]

I would definitely do a collimation using your collimation cap - it could be way off. Collimation can be simple, the most difficult bit for me is with a longer scope, you cannot look through the collimation cap and twiddle the primary mirror adjuster knobs at the same time unless you have very long arms, so there is a bit of back and forth. I’ll see if I can find a simple guide. 
 

As for atmosphere distortions, it best to do some trial and error, the higher the object the better it will look, and sometimes the atmosphere is just wobbly anyway (known as poor ‘seeing’). Also rooftops and concrete will give off heat haze as they cool down over night so best to avoid. The best observing sites are in the middle of a grassy field with clear horizons, but not many of us have back gardens like that! 

[cajen2]

I also have an 8" dob (StellaLyra) and can view both planets with no problems when they're high enough.

For collimation, Robertl is quite right: it's very difficult to reach the adjustment knobs for the primary and use a collimation cap at the same time. I use a laser collimator 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/other-collimation-tools/astro-essentials-125-laser-collimator.html

and find it very easy indeed. You just need to check that the laser is perfectly centred. If you loosen the focuser knobs just enough that you can rotate it, then check the red dot by looking down the scope, if there's no movement, the collimator is fine. Honestly, it's a five-minute job for me to do both secondary and primary mirrors with it. There are no doubt umpteen YouTube videos if you need them.

Edited August 6, 2022 by cajen2

[Guest]

Just a note about the eyepieces, the ones they gave you with the scope... especially the 30mm... I use it as a paperweight.   The only time I ever got a good view out of mine is when I used a coma corrector with it, then the image cleared up and were ok.  Not great but ok.  I use a plain Jane GSO corrector and the are 120 USD.  I have way better eyepieces that didn't break the bank that give much better images.

Cajen2 mentioned a laser to collimate with, I use one too and it works well.  With that said you have to make sure that the laser is properly aligned itself before you can really get the best out of them.  

A 8 inch dob is considered by many to be the best all around starter scope there is and there are guys out there that have stayed with them for decades.  

Edited August 6, 2022 by Mike Q

[wulfrun]

The atmosphere plays a big part in what you get to see on any night. Your 8" dob is well capable of showing a great deal but conditions need to be right. Patience is something you'll need in spades! If you're looking at (say) Jupiter, look at nearby stars too...if they're twinkling madly it's a sure sign views will be poor. Always best to wait until things are as high as possible too, you'll be looking through less atmosphere. And you need to hold the view, not take a quick glance. The longer you look, the more you'll see. Your brain starts putting together the details that are there, fleetingly, in the moments that the view is steady.

The eyepieces supplied with scopes are usually mediocre at best, so worth upgrading as soon as you can afford it.

Here's an excellent guide to collimation, without making it too complex or technical:

https://garyseronik.com/a-beginners-guide-to-collimation/

Above all, keep going!

[Gfamily]

Saturn will be at its highest as it passes due South (the same for anything else* ), and that should be at about 1:30 BST tonight, getting slightly earlier each night over the next few months. 

Jupiter is about 3 hours behind, so I'm a bit surprised you were saying about seeing Jupiter and then Saturn a few hours later

You should have easily seen up to 4 moons of Jupiter, whereas Saturn only has the one easily spotable moon through your scope. Though it's rings should make it unmistakable.

* assuming you're in the northern hemisphere of course - below the equator everything is at its highest as it passes the North.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Gfamily

[thestargaze]

4 hours ago, cajen2 said:

I also have an 8" dob (StellaLyra) and can view both planets with no problems when they're high enough.

For collimation, Robertl is quite right: it's very difficult to reach the adjustment knobs for the primary and use a collimation cap at the same time. I use a laser collimator 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/other-collimation-tools/astro-essentials-125-laser-collimator.html

and find it very easy indeed. You just need to check that the laser is perfectly centred. If you loosen the focuser knobs just enough that you can rotate it, then check the red dot by looking down the scope, if there's no movement, the collimator is fine. Honestly, it's a five-minute job for me to do both secondary and primary mirrors with it. There are no doubt umpteen YouTube videos if you need them.

Can you recommend a video or some instruction with pictures for collimating with the cap? I don’t have an laser collimating laser yet. It’s on my shopping list for September.

Do you need a tool to adjust the nobs (secondary and primary) on the StellaLyra scope? 

[thestargaze]

2 hours ago, Mike Q said:

Just a note about the eyepieces, the ones they gave you with the scope... especially the 30mm... I use it as a paperweight.   The only time I ever got a good view out of mine is when I used a coma corrector with it, then the image cleared up and were ok.  Not great but ok.  I use a plain Jane GSO corrector and the are 120 USD.  I have way better eyepieces that didn't break the bank that give much better images.

Cajen2 mentioned a laser to collimate with, I use one too and it works well.  With that said you have to make sure that the laser is properly aligned itself before you can really get the best out of them.  

A 8 inch dob is considered by many to be the best all around starter scope there is and there are guys out there that have stayed with them for decades.  

Can you recommend three or two eye pieces for the scope that won’t be too expensive?
 

Do I really need a plain GSO corrector? Have to Google what it is. Never heard of it.

It’s funny because I like the 30 mm the most, mainly because of the high eye relief, large aperture, high FOV and it’s easy to find objects like Jupiter. I see the moons very nice, very small but clear (to me).

Edited August 6, 2022 by thestargaze
Spelling

[thestargaze]

2 hours ago, wulfrun said:

The atmosphere plays a big part in what you get to see on any night. Your 8" dob is well capable of showing a great deal but conditions need to be right. Patience is something you'll need in spades! If you're looking at (say) Jupiter, look at nearby stars too...if they're twinkling madly it's a sure sign views will be poor. Always best to wait until things are as high as possible too, you'll be looking through less atmosphere. And you need to hold the view, not take a quick glance. The longer you look, the more you'll see. Your brain starts putting together the details that are there, fleetingly, in the moments that the view is steady.

The eyepieces supplied with scopes are usually mediocre at best, so worth upgrading as soon as you can afford it.

Here's an excellent guide to collimation, without making it too complex or technical:

https://garyseronik.com/a-beginners-guide-to-collimation/

Above all, keep going!

Can you recommend some good but not too expensive eye pieces? I was looking at the StellaLyra line at about 50 pound a piece but if you say they are not good enough.., 

[thestargaze]

1 hour ago, Gfamily said:

Saturn will be at its highest as it passes due South (the same for anything else* ), and that should be at about 1:30 BST tonight, getting slightly earlier each night over the next few months. 

Jupiter is about 3 hours behind, so I'm a bit surprised you were saying about seeing Jupiter and then Saturn a few hours later

You should have easily seen up to 4 moons of Jupiter, whereas Saturn only has the one easily spotable moon through your scope. Though it's rings should make it unmistakable.

* assuming you're in the northern hemisphere of course - below the equator everything is at its highest as it passes the North.

I meant Uranus .. I have Saturn on my brain right now. Really want to see it but it’s towards the south direction and I have a large tree there so I can’t see it well. Hoping I might see a glimpse of above the balcony divider or earlier than yesterday (but I guess it will be to low by then).

I would love to observe from the ground but the scope is to big for me to cart so far and it’s very difficult because I live in an apartment.

Yes, I live in Sweden. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by thestargaze

[Gfamily]

12 minutes ago, thestargaze said:

Can you recommend three or two eye pieces for the scope that won’t be too expensive?

It’s funny because I like the 30 mm the most, mainly because of the high eye relief, large aperture, high FOV and it’s easy to find objects like Jupiter. I see the moons very nice, very small but clear (to me).

If you like using it, then keep it.

At 30mm, even relatively cheap EPs can give good results, and if you've got a good 2" one that you're happy with, it's not a priority to change it. 

I can't make any suggestions for a 2" Ep, staying with 1.25",  you might like to try one of the Celestron X cel EPs in the range of 15-18mm as that could be used with the Barlow to give you a usable range of powers.

If you have a local astro society, someone may be able to give you the loan of an EP for you to try out.

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Gfamily

[wulfrun]

30 minutes ago, thestargaze said:

Can you recommend some good but not too expensive eye pieces? I was looking at the StellaLyra line at about 50 pound a piece but if you say they are not good enough.., 

Usual recommendation for good value is the BST Starguiders. The  5, 8, 12 and 15mm are well regarded, the 18 & 25mm folk say aren't as good. I only have one, a 5mm and I find it good (I'm using different scopes though). You have other suggestions above. Definitely keep the 30mm if you like it. Why change what works for you.

EDIT: I can't comment on the Stella Lyra EPs, I know nowt about them.

Edited August 6, 2022 by wulfrun
as per

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, thestargaze said:

Can you recommend a video or some instruction with pictures for collimating with the cap? I don’t have an laser collimating laser yet. It’s on my shopping list for September.

Do you need a tool to adjust the nobs (secondary and primary) on the StellaLyra scope? 

You may need a screw driver or allen head wrench to adjust the secondary.   A lot of us replace the secondary screws with thumbscrews. The primary adjustment you just adjust by hand.  Its done using the six knobs on the bottom of the scope 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, thestargaze said:

Can you recommend three or two eye pieces for the scope that won’t be too expensive?
 

Do I really need a plain GSO corrector? Have to Google what it is. Never heard of it.

It’s funny because I like the 30 mm the most, mainly because of the high eye relief, large aperture, high FOV and it’s easy to find objects like Jupiter. I see the moons very nice, very small but clear (to me).

I am not familiar with the names used on your side of the pond.  We have the same eyepieces in the States but under different names.  I use a lot of Long Perng eyepieces branded as Orions.  They are solid eyepieces and i have zero complaints with any of them. @cajen2..... Can you give this gentleman some direction on eyepieces.  You know whats what on your side of the pond. 

As to the coma corrector.  Slap the 30mm and aim it at the stars.  Get the center nicely focused and then look out towards the edges.  The stars may not look as good as the center. Now some people this doesnt bother, some people it drives them crazy.  In my 10 inch the 30mm that came with the scope was just usable, the coma corrector really helped it a bunch and i use it with all my 70 degree eyepieces.  My 80 degree eyepieces, that cost 3x more dont require it.   As to the question donyou really need it?  Only you can answer that.  I took a chance after i read a post mentioning my specific scope and eyepieces.  I am personally glad i got it, because the difference is night and day in my scope. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Mike Q

[Spile]

The cap is ideal for for collimation of the primary but in order to align the secondary I would recommend a Cheshire eyepiece and sight tube combination tool. This will go through what you need to do…https://astro.catshill.com/collimation-guide/

[cajen2]

6 hours ago, thestargaze said:

Can you recommend some good but not too expensive eye pieces? I was looking at the StellaLyra line at about 50 pound a piece but if you say they are not good enough.., 

Like most things, the answer depends on your budget and what you want to view.

As @wulfrun says, BST Starguiders are extremely good value for money, but if can go higher, something with a wider field of view is so good in a dob: you have to adjust it less often to keep a target in view and it also makes it easier to find a target. My personal favourites are the Baader Morpheus range - such involving views.

[Guest]

One type of eyepiece that maybe you could consider is a variable eyepiece.  Something in the 8 to 24mm area.  They arent exactly cheap but they can do a bit of everything.  Celestron is on the low end of these and Baader is on the high end.  Mine is a Orion, i think its made by Long Perng and it is right in the middle.  

[Zeta Reticulan]

Or buy the 'Astromania' version  which is cheaper, even though it's almost certainly made in the same factory.

[cajen2]

10 hours ago, thestargaze said:

Can you recommend a video or some instruction with pictures for collimating with the cap? I don’t have an laser collimating laser yet. It’s on my shopping list for September.

Do you need a tool to adjust the nobs (secondary and primary) on the StellaLyra scope? 

You don't need a video - just slide the cap into the focuser, aim the scope at a white wall or similar, loosen the locking knobs and try to get the little circle in the centre with the adjustment knobs. 

The only problem is that you can't adjust the secondary mirror with it. That's why I use a laser collimator: it can be used to adjust both mirrors.

As to tools, you need a screwdriver for the secondary screws and that's it. The primary mirror has the adjustment knobs.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the collimation knobs are the black ones and the locking knobs are white. You'd think this would be mentioned in a little included leaflet but the manufacturer doesn't bother!

Edited August 7, 2022 by cajen2

[Ratlet]

Don't go nuts with eyepieces.  If you are happy with the 30mm don't replace it.  I've got a 28mm skywatcher that came free with my scope and love the views.  I replaced it with a 30mm 1.25" Plossl cause I'm very lazy and didn't want to have to swap between 2" and 1.25".  Also 1.25" are generally cheaper.

The zooms are okay, but be aware that they often have a fairly narrow fov and some aren't true parafocal and will require focus adjustment as you change the zoom.  I got an svbony 8-24mm.  Not sure it works well in my F5 newt, but only tried it the once.

I believe the bst Starguiders are called astro tech paradigm eye pieces in the states.  You might get more milage out of replacing your 8mm with a better one like the paradigm and something in the middle like a 15mm?

I'd say at this point don't go nuts with eyepieces, get comfortable with collimation first.  Personally I'd go for a laser collimator as they make it a lot faster and easier.

[bosun21]

19 hours ago, thestargaze said:

 

Do I really need a plain GSO corrector?

The short answer for visual is NO.