Question about satellite data, light pollution and bortle ratings

[HiveIndustries]

This is from Dark Site finder, without giving up my exact location, I'm about a half mile into the Bortle 8 area which is the dark grey:

And here's the wiki description of Bortle areas:

 

So my question is how often is the data updated? Could my area be brighter now? I only ask because the Orion Nebula is a faint smudge, no definition at all and smaller than it should be and I've yet to even get Andromeda in my skies. My scope is a 12" Lightbridge. The only time I've caught Orion (omg skies have been real bad) was when the moon was 40% but it was already cleared out of the night sky and the time was about 1.5 hours before sunrise so it's possible it wasn't exactly ideal.

I always feel like I'm lying when I say I'm Bortle 8, I'm 1.5 blocks from a somewhat major 4 lane artery, could that be the discrepancy?

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

The area could be brighter now... However even under light polluted skies a 12" reflector should reveal great detail in Orion and at least the core of Andromeda. I suggest the moon light and brightening morning skies are coming into play. Try again with the moon gone and both objects higher in the sky. 

[wulfrun]

You might want to ask a mod to move this, since you've put it in eyepiece discussions area...

[Cornelius Varley]

Moved

[HiveIndustries]

6 minutes ago, wulfrun said:

You might want to ask a mod to move this, since you've put it in eyepiece discussions area...

 

Just now, Cornelius Varley said:

Moved

Whoops, thanks.

 

7 minutes ago, ScouseSpaceCadet said:

The area could be brighter now... However even under light polluted skies a 12" reflector should reveal great detail in Orion and at least the core of Andromeda. I suggest the moon light and brightening morning skies are coming into play. Try again with the moon gone and both objects higher in the sky. 

Thanks, it's been uber frustrating with cloud cover. I chuckled for the first 2 weeks after I got a new scope because of course that's what happens but we're over a month now and still all I've been able to get in were those few short minutes in the morning. Everything else has been looking at Jupiter, Saturn and the moon through aggressive mostly cloudy weather. I sprang out of bed and would have broken a lens if it wasn't encased moving so fast (literally broke the plastic case, fell on concrete off the dob base) to set it up to catch a glimpse before the sun came up.

If I didn't already spend all summer observing through a much smaller scope I swear I would have cursed at the sky and gave up and said screw it already. I feel like I live on Venus.

[vlaiv]

Moon plays a part but also sky conditions. LP levels fluctuate during the night as people turn lights on/off and traffic changes (car headlights).

Local haze / fog even very small will amplify glow from surrounding lights as light is scattered by water molecules.

Visibility of targets will also be impacted by high altitude transparency. Dust, fire, pollution - all contribute to decline of transparency.

If you want fairly accurate assessment of current LP levels - get SQM - sky quality meter:

http://www.unihedron.com/projects/darksky/

If you have iPhone - look up app that should do the same

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dark-sky-meter/id602989060

As for high level transparency forecast, I use Copernicus service:

https://atmosphere.copernicus.eu/charts/cams/aerosol-forecasts?facets=undefined&time=2021102100,3,2021102103&projection=classical_global&layer_name=composition_aod550

Zoom in on area of interest, set wanted time and look what level of transparency is expected.

Up to 0.3 is ok - other is going to start to impact things severely.

For overview of how these two fit together (atmospheric extinction and AOD) - see this article:

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-resources/transparency-and-atmospheric-extinction/

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

32 minutes ago, HiveIndustries said:

 

Whoops, thanks.

 

Thanks, it's been uber frustrating with cloud cover. I chuckled for the first 2 weeks after I got a new scope because of course that's what happens but we're over a month now and still all I've been able to get in were those few short minutes in the morning. Everything else has been looking at Jupiter, Saturn and the moon through aggressive mostly cloudy weather. I sprang out of bed and would have broken a lens if it wasn't encased moving so fast (literally broke the plastic case, fell on concrete off the dob base) to set it up to catch a glimpse before the sun came up.

If I didn't already spend all summer observing through a much smaller scope I swear I would have cursed at the sky and gave up and said screw it already. I feel like I live on Venus.

Poor weather along with light pollution is, I agree, incredibly frustrating however there's not much we can do about the former and the latter can be countered a little depending on one's circumstance i.e. blocking local light sources with barriers, using observing hoods or just giving in to reality knowing we must travel out of the city.

I live in New York's twin city of Liverpool, England and gave up my 8" dobs, favouring a small refractor. For the simple reason DSO viewing is pitiful from my yard. Now from home I concentrate on lunar, planetary, double stars and some open clusters. Occasionally if the night is really clear I'll try some of the bright DSOs. Mostly I look forward to camping in rural areas with binoculars, a small Mak or at dedicated star camps, the refractor. Star camps I'll always try and steal a view through a dob though. 😁

The winter astronomy season has only just begun so don't give up. Hopefully you will enjoy some decent views as the temperature cools and the skies darken a little more.

 

[HiveIndustries]

1 hour ago, vlaiv said:

Moon plays a part but also sky conditions. LP levels fluctuate during the night as people turn lights on/off and traffic changes (car headlights).

Local haze / fog even very small will amplify glow from surrounding lights as light is scattered by water molecules.

Visibility of targets will also be impacted by high altitude transparency. Dust, fire, pollution - all contribute to decline of transparency.

If you want fairly accurate assessment of current LP levels - get SQM - sky quality meter:

http://www.unihedron.com/projects/darksky/

If you have iPhone - look up app that should do the same

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dark-sky-meter/id602989060

As for high level transparency forecast, I use Copernicus service:

https://atmosphere.copernicus.eu/charts/cams/aerosol-forecasts?facets=undefined&time=2021102100,3,2021102103&projection=classical_global&layer_name=composition_aod550

Zoom in on area of interest, set wanted time and look what level of transparency is expected.

Up to 0.3 is ok - other is going to start to impact things severely.

For overview of how these two fit together (atmospheric extinction and AOD) - see this article:

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-resources/transparency-and-atmospheric-extinction/

This is an incredibly helpful post. It appeared other than the sun I was in some of the best viewing conditions I've had all year but it's so hard to tell because I really only had like 10 minutes before light blue started to appear on the horizon and part of that was waking my wife up after I framed in the nebula. If I had woken up even like 30 minutes earlier I'd only be half as depressed about my constant clouds.

I will be using these tools, the data will be invaluable for understanding.

38 minutes ago, ScouseSpaceCadet said:

Poor weather along with light pollution is, I agree, incredibly frustrating however there's not much we can do about the former and the latter can be countered a little depending on one's circumstance i.e. blocking local light sources with barriers, using observing hoods or just giving in to reality knowing we must travel out of the city.

I live in New York's twin city of Liverpool, England and gave up my 8" dobs, favouring a small refractor. For the simple reason DSO viewing is pitiful from my yard. Now from home I concentrate on lunar, planetary, double stars and some open clusters. Occasionally if the night is really clear I'll try some of the bright DSOs. Mostly I look forward to camping in rural areas with binoculars, a small Mak or at dedicated star camps, the refractor. Star camps I'll always try and steal a view through a dob though. 😁

The winter astronomy season has only just begun so don't give up. Hopefully you will enjoy some decent views as the temperature cools and the skies darken a little more.

 

I feel like 95% of the UK is like right outside of NYC and when I complain here about Bortle 8 skies I'm complaining about your status quo. We still have a staggering amount of dark geography (yes it's getting worse) in the US so my frame of reference to complaining to peers is way off lol.

It is pretty disheartening though to click on this post about where I live and seeing the busiest NYC airport. I depressingly feel like I'm answering a lot of my own questions being hit with the obvious, visually.

The reason it's a truss and not a tube dob is I always intended this to be a piece I travel with. If I were going to stick to planets and lunar I'd probably have wound up with an 8" tube instead of a 12" truss. Definitely not giving up, I'm an emotional beast and fully aware of that fact. If I had this cloudy spell without a new scope I'd care about 300% less

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by HiveIndustries

[HiveIndustries]

Better data for my specific site. Even though the blended data shows me 8, this is what the 2015 data says at my address:

Womp womp. We've had a massive LED street light "upgrade" in 2016-2017 that has blanketed formerly more dim streets.. At least I get the satisfaction of knowing I wasn't crazy about my early personal observations of my night sky?

As stated, I never planned to make my back yard my DSO hut so, it's not a complete disappointment but I thought I'd be able to get some good stuff still even if it wasn't "good" by any real measure.

It'll be fun to find these things anyways even if they're really dim light pink (not in a good way) blurs. It's pretty amazing what a single bortle rating drop actually means.

18.19 SQM!

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

5 minutes ago, HiveIndustries said:

This is an incredibly helpful post. It appeared other than the sun I was in some of the best viewing conditions I've had all year but it's so hard to tell because I really only had like 10 minutes before light blue started to appear on the horizon and part of that was waking my wife up after I framed in the nebula. If I had woken up even like 30 minutes earlier I'd only be half as depressed about my constant clouds.

I will be using these tools, the data will be invaluable for understanding.

I feel like 95% of the UK is like right outside of NYC and when I complain here about Bortle 8 skies I'm complaining about your status quo. We still have a staggering amount of dark geography (yes it's getting worse) in the US so my frame of reference to complaining to peers is way off lol.

It is pretty disheartening though to click on this post about where I live and seeing the busiest NYC airport. I depressingly feel like I'm answering a lot of my own questions being hit with the obvious, visually.

The reason it's a truss and not a dob is I always intended this to be a piece I travel with. If I were going to stick to planets and lunar I'd probably have wound up with an 8" tube instead of a 12" truss. Definitely not giving up, I'm an emotional beast and fully aware of that fact. If I had this cloudy spell without a new scope I'd care about 300% less

 

To give you an idea of how bad it is here, I worked at large inner city hospital 4.5 miles west from me.  Looking up on a clear night, the sky is black with maybe 5 bright stars, the moon and planets visible. Likely as bad as NYC. Crazy as another mile further and you're in the Mersey estuary and another couple of miles, the Irish Sea.

At 5 miles east from the city centre, the sky is as described in my previous post. Drive another 10 miles out and you will either hit a town at bortle 6/7 or a pocket of semi rural land at bortle 5. I have to travel approx. 60 miles for bortle 4 rural skies. Around 100 miles for bortle 3. Any other provincial city like Manchester or Birmingham is about the same.

Not much different than your experience except imaginably that awful dead black sky extends a little further over an area like NYC.

We're all blighted wherever we live. There are members here from afar. Places like Delhi and Singapore have it bad despite large rural expanse in their countries.

I just read your last post. That is bad! ☹️ Like the very centre of my city.  I'm 18.84 bortle 7-8. You might want to give those double stars etc a try rather than DSOs. 😬

[HiveIndustries]

1 minute ago, ScouseSpaceCadet said:

To give you an idea of how bad it is here, I worked at large inner city hospital 4.5 miles west from me.  Looking up on a clear night, the sky is black with maybe 5 bright stars, the moon and planets visible. Likely as bad as NYC. Crazy as another mile further and you're in the Mersey estuary and another couple of miles, the Irish Sea.

At 5 miles east from the city centre, the sky is as described in my previous post. Drive another 10 miles out and you will either hit a town at bortle 6/7 or a pocket of semi rural land at bortle 5. I have to travel approx. 60 miles for bortle 4 rural skies. Around 100 miles for bortle 3. Any other provincial city like Manchester or Birmingham is about the same.

Not much different than your experience except imaginably that awful dead black sky extends a little further over an area like NYC.

We're all blighted wherever we live. There are members here from afar. Places like Delhi and Singapore have it bad despite large rural expanse in their countries.

I just read your last post. That is bad! ☹️ Like the very centre of my city.  I'm 18.84 bortle 7-8. You might want to give those double stars etc a try rather than DSOs. 😬

No, really, I think I'm just a ungrateful American. NYC is bad, but if you look at a LP map of the NE US you'll see it's only "western Europe-like" from the corridor from DC through Boston. If you zoom in there are plenty of places to duck out to that are similar to your Scottish-English border, I can find Bortle 3 in a 2 hour drive and Bortle 2 in a 6.

I see the end of the world, because it's the worst possible situation in my country but while that's true, and equal to your experience, you have less options to escape.

I'm certain Manhattan as a whole is way more intense than London over a larger area but outside of turning night into day your "suburban" skies are just absolutely endless.