Beginner Equipment Advice

[Lemmy Caution]

Hi Everyone

I'm looking for a (complete) beginners telescope. I live in Manchester city centre on the 4th floor with a large open door and tiny julliete balcony that would be no good for putting a telescope on but the telescope would be unobstructed looking out of the door. This means it would be above lamposts but still lots of light pollution. I have a couple of good tripods for film cameras which can take 6kg and 10kg cameras, respectively so one that could be mounted on that would be great so that I can spend more money on the telescope itself (am presuming may have to buy a tripod mount of some kind rather than use the existing fluid heads).

In an Ideal world the telescope could be used for nightsky and nature but would rather get a good nightsky one rather than compromise. Also in an ideal world one that is portable as I don't drive so would need to fit in a backpack. Any recommendations in the £200 to £500 range, and also essential or recommended accessories.

thanks and merry xmas!

Lemmy Caution

Edited December 25, 2020 by Lemmy Caution
more info

[Cosmic Geoff]

See the beginners telescope section on forum sponsors FLO website. That shows what beginner scopes they could sell you (if they had stock).

Also check out the Celestron 127mm Mak SLT - mine still gets regular use.

[Tiny Clanger]

Welcome,

you got cash for christmas then ? 😀

I'm sure plenty of suggestions will be posted when others get a break from the festive madness , but for practicality in a small balcony , portability and the ability to mount the thing on a hefty photo tripod I'd suggest the combo I have mounted on a big manfrotto tripod , a skywatcher 127maksutov and an alt az mount. The telescope is around £270, the mount ( a skywatcher az5) around £130 . Sold as a package with a (not very good) tripod it is £430  https://www.firstlightoptics.com/maksutov/sky-watcher-skymax-127-az5-deluxe.html

That package deal has the green mounting rail in a better place than the same 'scope bought as a standalone, it also has an optical viewfinder not a red dot finder.

I initially didn't buy the alt/az mount, as I have a manfrotto pan tilt that cost about the same amount (20 years ago) and thought it might work, but soon found the tiny field of view of the telescope makes proper slow motion controls essential. You  might be able to use a lighter alt/az mount ( I wanted something which would cope with any future upgrades) or even get one with go to capability . There's also a smaller 105 mak in the same range , less light gathering, more compact, and sold as a package https://www.firstlightoptics.com/beginner-telescopes/sky-watcher-skymax-102-az-gti.html

The telescope is great for planets and the Moon, less ideally suited for deep sky objects. Most people find they want to buy a few better eyepieces (costing anything from £40 to how much ?! ) and often a different style of aiming device to the stock finder too, these start at around £30 and , again, go as high as you like ...

As I type, Cosmic Geoff   has suggested exactly the same !

Excuse me, my brief respite from the festivities has ended, apparently ...

Heather

[Lemmy Caution]

Thanks Cosmc Geoff and Tiny Clanger,  I checked out the FLO website and there are a lot of options! so it's good to have something to narrow it down in terms of the  Celestron /Skywatcher 127 maks. My current tripods are also Manfrotto and so its very useful to know about the slow motion controls that might be needed to get a good view.  

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Lemmy Caution
update

[vlaiv]

Hi and welcome to SGL.

If I got it right, you want light weight scope that is grab'n'go, can be mounted on a tripod, will use it from balcony but also carry with when you go somewhere - so it needs to be portable / packed into backpack.

Really only two scope models come to mind to satisfy your needs, but you'll have to choose between them. I'll explain the differences.

Maksutov:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/maksutov/skywatcher-skymax-102-ota.html

and short refractor:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/startravel/skywatcher-startravel-102t-ota.html

Maksutov telescope is long focal length instrument and although compact: less than 2Kg and shorter than 30cm - it will provide high magnification in range of x40 to over x160 with ease. It is better suited to observing the Moon and the planets but can be also used for deep sky objects (star clusters, galaxies, nebulae and such).

I don't do much nature observing, but from what I gathered - this scope will possibly give you too much magnification for day time observing. Again, I guess, it will be down to your preferences.

Since it is light weight and has 1/4" thread on its foot - you should be able to use it on fluid head - no need for special astronomical mount. If you want tracking one - which is good for planetary and lunar observation as it tracks the object, I recommend this one: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/alt-azimuth-astronomy-mounts/sky-watcher-az-gti-wifi-alt-az-mount-tripod.html

no need for tripod as it will sit nicely on photo tripod with 3/8" connection. It is operated via wifi (mobile phone) and powered with batteries, so it is also portable. It can be used in equatorial mode as a star tracker if you want to shoot night sky with your cameras / lens.

If you prefer low power views of deep sky objects and occasional observing of the Moon but planets don't generally interest you much - get second telescope. It is a bit bulkier at 2.5Kg and over 40cm of length and is suitable for low power observing only. It has quite a bit of chromatic aberration and that will limit high power use. It can easily achieve magnifications in x15-x70 range and is best used like that.

Again, you can combine it with above mount head for tracking but it also can sit on fluid head and photo tripod.

For terrestrial observation you can get 45° correct image diagonal (amici prism) while for astronomy 90° diagonal is better (you can have both as well as changeable eyepieces).

If you want good zoom eyepiece to go with both of these scopes so that you have great range of magnifications - take a look at this one:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/ovl-eyepieces/hyperflex-9-27mm-zoom.html

It will give you good range on both of those scopes.

Alternative option would be to get spotting scope like this:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/acuter-spotting-scopes/acuter-natureclose-st100a-22-67x100-waterproof-angled-spotting-scope.html

Which is all in one package in performance similar to second scope given above, but not as suited for astronomy as it only has 45° diagonal.

If you want telescope that has advantages of both designs above and can be used for both planets and deep sky - it is going to cost you more and will be even longer. This is the telescope to go for:

https://www.altairastro.com/starwave-ascent-80ed-f7-refractor-telescope-geared-focuser-469-p.asp

It will be able to provide you with magnifications in range x15 - x160 as it is what is known ED doublet that has chromatic aberration greatly reduced due to use of exotic glass elements. It will have a bit less light grasp for deep sky objects than above 100mm scopes but is still in portable weight and size.

There is also 100mm model - but that is going to be larger scope. It has 4Kg and at least 50-60cm of length.

https://www.altairastro.com/starwave-ascent-102ed-f7-refractor-telescope-geared-focuser-468-p.asp

It might be on the edge of above mentioned tracking head and you'll need sturdier mount for it.

 

[Lemmy Caution]

thanks Vlaiv, I've just spent the last 20 mins going through the links and options, and that makes the differences between the various telescope designs much clearer. I'm tempted by all of them, except maybe the spotter and it's a tough call as to the others as the different designs all seem to offer certain advantages. In practical terms I can get good views of the moon from my flat and so that is most likely going to be object that it will be used for most. There is also a 10 story car park 2 mins walk away which would give me 360 degree access to the sky and hopefully would open up other objects. 

[vlaiv]

1 minute ago, Lemmy Caution said:

thanks Vlaiv, I've just spent the last 20 mins going through the links and options, and that makes the differences between the various telescope designs much clearer. I'm tempted by all of them, except maybe the spotter and it's a tough call as to the others as the different designs all seem to offer certain advantages. In practical terms I can get good views of the moon from my flat and so that is most likely going to be object that it will be used for most. There is also a 10 story car park 2 mins walk away which would give me 360 degree access to the sky and hopefully would open up other objects. 

Given that you have some tripods and heads - I guess you do some photography. All of these scopes can act as telephoto lens - they all have option for T2 adapter (or already integrated T2 thread) - and all you need is T2 adapter for your favorite camera model.

In terms of focal length - Maksutov is 1300mm (F/13), StarTravel 102 is 500mm (F/5) and those ED scopes are F/7 one being 560mm and other ~700mm.

Unfortunately stock is so low these days due to all disruption in commerce due to pandemic, so take that into consideration as well.

I had StarTravel 102mm and even took some test shots with that scope. You can see them here:

http://serve.trimacka.net/foto/st102-test/

This TV tower is for example, 6.5 miles away from my home:

And this crop of other image shows level of chromatic aberration given by this lens:

I also have Mak 102 and here is comparison between the two scopes on the Moon:

Above is with ST102, and here is with Mak102:

Images are shot differently but sharpness difference is obvious (you can view each image in full detail by right click / open in new tab sort of thing).

I also have 80mm APO triplet scope with perfect color correction and while that is excellent photographic instrument - I prefer others for visual.

Hope this helps your decision.

[Lemmy Caution]

Hi Vlaiv
This is so useful to see the differences and he images really bring to life the qualities of the respective telescopes. Both shots of the moon are excellent but as you say there is also an obvious difference in terms of contrast and detail.  I hadn't really thought about the photographic element (my tripods are used for film cameras) but it seems like a no brainer to get an adaptor to attach a DSLR. 

[johninderby]

The mak is hard to beat for it’s cost for lunar / planetary observing. An APO refractor is excellent but much more expensive.

Photo taken with an ST102 and compact camera on top and below taken with an 80mm f/10 APO and smartphone.

Edited December 25, 2020 by johninderby

[Lemmy Caution]

...what a fantastic image taken with the APO refractor. I just googled 80mm APO and the prices are indeed steep but worth looking into, esp perhaps secondhand. Any specific recommendations?

[johninderby]

The APO used was this one. A great planetary scope. Better optics than the Skywatcher but given the difference in price not surprising.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/stellamira-telescopes/stellamira-80mm-ed-f10-refractor-telescope.html

However the Skywatcher 80ED is much cheaper and will give very good results at a fairly reasonable price but not quite as good visually as a 100 or 127 mak on the moon. They show up quite often second hand.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/pro-series/skywatcher-evostar-80ed-ds-pro-ota.html

This is quite popular and again not too expensive.

https://www.altairastro.com/starwave-ascent-102ed-f7-refractor-telescope-geared-focuser-468-p.asp

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by johninderby

[vlaiv]

6 minutes ago, Lemmy Caution said:

...what a fantastic image taken with the APO refractor. I just googled 80mm APO and the prices are indeed steep but worth looking into, esp perhaps secondhand. Any specific recommendations?

Most people choose to go with ED doublet for visual and if you are not going to do astrophotography - there is little to be gained by going with triplet scope. In fact ED doublet is often recommended as astrophotography starter scope.

Mind you, not all ED doublets are created equal - so there are ones that are suitable for visual primarily and then there are ones that are suited for astrophotography as well. This is because sensors are more sensitive to wavelengths at far ends of spectrum then human eyes and while you might not see residual chromatic aberration - image will show it in some cases.

Having said that:

Good ED doublets in 80mm range:

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p7169_TS-Optics-ED-APO-80-mm-f-7-Refractor-with-2-5--R-P-focuser.html

as visual scope

photographic counter part - just a bit more expensive:

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p8637_TS-Optics-Doublet-SD-APO-80mm-f-7---FPL-53---Lanthan-Objective.html

(fact that it is marketed as photoline - says a lot)

but also there is 80mm triplet scope:

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p3881_TS-Optics-PHOTOLINE-80mm-f-6-FPL53-Triplet-APO---2-5--RAP-Focuser.html

Keep in mind that triplet scopes have more glass and will need a bit more time to cool down in colder weather. They also tend to be a bit more heavy.

[Lemmy Caution]

..useful to see that Starwave that John recommends above is the same one that Vlaiv recommended earlier

[johninderby]

You really are spoiled for choice nowadays. So many options. 🤔

Yes a lot of the Chinese made scopes are sold under many brands.

[vlaiv]

10 minutes ago, Lemmy Caution said:

..useful to see that Starwave that John recommends above is the same one that Vlaiv recommended earlier

Most of these scopes have the same origin - same factory in the far east produces them (either in China or in Taiwan) and they get branded differently.

Those scopes that I linked last - from Telescope Service in Germany are actually from same source as those by AltairAstro (and sometimes Stellarvue and so on). For example, this two are the same scopes:

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p7169_TS-Optics-ED-APO-80-mm-f-7-Refractor-with-2-5--R-P-focuser.html

and

https://www.altairastro.com/starwave-ascent-80ed-f7-refractor-telescope-geared-focuser-469-p.asp

These two are the same optics:

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p8637_TS-Optics-Doublet-SD-APO-80mm-f-7---FPL-53---Lanthan-Objective.html

and

https://www.altairastro.com/starwave-80ed-r-ed-doublet-refractor-telescope-466-p.asp

80mm F/6 APO also goes there:

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p3881_TS-Optics-PHOTOLINE-80mm-f-6-FPL53-Triplet-APO---2-5--RAP-Focuser.html

and

https://www.altairastro.com/starwave-80-ed-triplet-apo-travel-refractor-465-p.asp

And 102mm versions as well

StellaMira 80mm F/10 is special in that it is only made for FLO as far as I know (and by LongPerng in Taiwan). Here is unbranded version of the telescope:

http://www.longperng.com.tw/goods.php?act=view&no=227

And I think that anyone willing to purchase shipment of these scopes can get their own branding on them.

Most of these 80-120mm ED/APO scopes are very decent units and certainly worth the money. There are much more expensive telescope son the market - not necessarily much better than these units.

Edited December 25, 2020 by vlaiv

[Tiny Clanger]

3 hours ago, Lemmy Caution said:

Thanks Cosmc Geoff and Tiny Clanger,  I checked out the FLO website and there are a lot of options! so it's good to have something to narrow it down in terms of the  Celestron /Skywatcher 127 maks. My current tripods are also Manfrotto and so its very useful to know about the slow motion controls that might be needed to get a good view.  

 

The tripod I have the alt/az and mak 127 combo on is an old Manfrotto 055 pro, it is easily up to the task.

While considering refractors, do note the length of the tube, if the the depth of your balcony is not great you may find a longer tube awkward , remember the pivot over the tripod boss will be somewhere towards the middle of the 'scope to balance it, so along with the tripod legs setting you back from the front edge, you need to take the tube length into account. Try setting a tripod up on the balcony, to around your shoulder height, ideally rather than using the centre column at all just extend the legs, it is less vibration prone that way.

The 127 mak has a tube length of 34cm, with the diagonal adding 10cm at the eyepiece end.  I just measured mine, and from the centre of the tripod to the end of the eyepiece is 23cm. It has a focal length of 1500mm folded into that short body.

I looked at refractors when I started investigating telescopes to buy 6 months ago, as a longtime photographer they seemed the obvious choice, being so similar to telephoto lenses. I was put off by the cost for quality glass of a decent aperture, it seemed I might as well buy a telephoto lens and benefit from the economies of scale photographic kit manufacturers have (not that I have more than a passing interest in astro photo taking, I simply want to observe ) .

First I went for a dobsonian reflector (which I'd not suggest for your circumstances for purely practical reasons) . It has a focal length of 750mm, and an aperture of 150mm which gives it a relatively wide field and good light gathering, which is great for many astronomical targets. But for planets and the Moon , which are relatively bright, but benefit from greater magnification, I eventually found I wanted a longer focal length and was willing to sacrifice light gathering.. Thinking of them in camera lens terms, the dob  is f5 and focal length 750mm  , the mak is f12 (ish) at 1500mm.

Heather

[Drewby80]

Hi I have just purchased a Celestron NexStar 102SLT (my first ever attempt at looking aloft).

Im quite pleased with the first objects I’ve looked for and found it very easy to use and even managed to take a nice picture of the moon by aligning my phone camera to the eyepiece in the hour I’ve messed about with it. 
 

I had a look at Mars last night through the 9mm eyepiece it was supplied with but would have liked to see more detail than a red blob. 
 

My question is is it possible to see more detail with something like a 4mm eyepiece in this scope?

Is it worth purchasing one or is there a better solution here?

Thanks in advance and apologies for my complete noobie terminology / ignorance here. 

[John]

19 minutes ago, Drewby80 said:

Hi I have just purchased a Celestron NexStar 102SLT (my first ever attempt at looking aloft).

Im quite pleased with the first objects I’ve looked for and found it very easy to use and even managed to take a nice picture of the moon by aligning my phone camera to the eyepiece in the hour I’ve messed about with it. 
 

I had a look at Mars last night through the 9mm eyepiece it was supplied with but would have liked to see more detail than a red blob. 
 

My question is is it possible to see more detail with something like a 4mm eyepiece in this scope?

Is it worth purchasing one or is there a better solution here?

Thanks in advance and apologies for my complete noobie terminology / ignorance here. 

Hi congratulations on your new scope. It is a nice one

It will show you lots of nice views but Mars is now moving away from us and rapidly dwindling in size. A short focal length eyepiece will show a slightly larger disk but still small and discerning any details on it is now getting challenging even for powerful scopes.

A small pink disk possibly with suggestions of vague dark markings is pretty much about as good as Mars is going to be for some time now. 

There are plenty of other good targets around though and dark nights now (when the clouds stay away) so you should have a good supply of non-planetary targets. Orion is a very fertile hunting ground for example and is well on display mid to late evening currently.

 

[Drewby80]

Hi @john thanks for your reply, I have had a good look round at other accessories that I may want to consider. 
 

I currently only have the 25mm and 9mm eyepieces that come provided with the scope. 
 

The 9mm eyepiece requires you to place your eye with much more precision than the 25mm to get a good view. 
 

I am looking at purchasing a CELESTRON X-CEL LX 5mm eyepiece am I correct in thinking that because of its superior optics that the viewing experience I will get when using this will be more akin to using my current 25mm one?

I’ve also looked at the 2.3mm one which I believe will provide a magnification of about 287x if understand it correctly. 
 

Will this be too much for my scope and be un usable, or will I just get great close up views of small areas of the moon for example?

I was also wondering if its possible to get a CCD unit and take wide field long exposure photos with my mount or is it’s tracking precision not up to the job?

Edited December 26, 2020 by Drewby80

[John]

Hi,

The 5mm X-Cel LX will be better than the stock eyepieces. It provides a relatively high magnification but at least it will be a useful one. Bear in mind that a lot of astro observing is done at low to medium magnifications. Targets such as the Andromeda Galaxy and Orion Nebula need low to medium magnifications (30x - 80x say) as do many star clusters. 

The 2.3mm X-Cel LX will just not be much use to you to be honest.

It's well worth considering the BST Starguider eyepieces as an alterntative to the X-Cel LX eyepieces. Performance at least as good and somewhat better value for money. You don't need to use Celestron eyepieces just because the scope is branded that:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bst-starguider-eyepieces.html

I don't do any imaging so I can't help with that but long exposure imaging is a very different ball game to observing and much more demanding on the mount, scope etc.

I would suggest that you start a separate thread on your scope and needs to avoid de-railing this one which is dealing with a slightly different issue.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2020 by John

[Lemmy Caution]

Thanks @vlaiv, @Drewby80 and @Tiny Clanger for all the insights and advice: it's greatly appreciated and has helped me going from no idea what I was looking at to having narrowed the choice down to either a 127MAK or an ED80 telescope. (Altair or Skywatcher). Looking on the website FLO also do a Skywatcher ED72 which looks great and might be a real contender but doesn't come as a kit whereas the EED80 and MAK127 do and am presuming is better value (but maybe its best to buy things separately in terms of quality, so the ED72 still in the running). It seems that the EDs are allrounders while the MAKs offer best value so a hard call. Nothing in stock from what I've seen and so it looks like its going to be wait unless anything turns up second hand. Any recommended second hand forums?

 

[Ricochet]

1 hour ago, Lemmy Caution said:

Any recommended second hand forums?

 

There is a second hand section on this forum, which in my experience is the best place to buy second hand gear. 

Alternatively I have also had good results with https://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/index.php and eBay but I think both of these tend to be a little more risky in regards to scams or equipment not being quite as described. 

 

[Tiny Clanger]

3 hours ago, Lemmy Caution said:

Thanks @vlaiv, @Drewby80 and @Tiny Clanger for all the insights and advice: it's greatly appreciated and has helped me going from no idea what I was looking at to having narrowed the choice down to either a 127MAK or an ED80 telescope. (Altair or Skywatcher). Looking on the website FLO also do a Skywatcher ED72 which looks great and might be a real contender but doesn't come as a kit whereas the EED80 and MAK127 do and am presuming is better value (but maybe its best to buy things separately in terms of quality, so the ED72 still in the running). It seems that the EDs are allrounders while the MAKs offer best value so a hard call. Nothing in stock from what I've seen and so it looks like its going to be wait unless anything turns up second hand. Any recommended second hand forums?

 

You're welcome.

Two places I've had bargains from : first the forum on here

https://stargazerslounge.com/forum/217-for-sale-swap/

which you can keep an eye on, and 'follow' to get updates on new threads, The usual practice if you are seriously interested in an item is to post a quick note on the page saying 'PM sent' , and message the poster privately via their profile asap. While the rules say there is no requirement that a seller give precedence to the first to respond, it does seem to be the usual way things are done. The obvious advantage of this is that you can see the reputation of the seller , and be confident that they know their stuff and will be honest about the condition of the kit.

A second thread to keep an eye on is this

https://stargazerslounge.com/forum/197-flo-clearance-offers/

where FLO give a heads up on returns they are selling at a small discount . An online retailer is bound to get a proportion of sales returned, and they offer them (well checked and with any problems disclosed) with a small discount because of the opened box. There is always a link to the item's page on their website, so it's just a matter of clicking through to there and buying it smartish ! If the page comes up 'page not found', then it's been sold . I suspect there might be a few post Xmas returns on offer once the holiday is over.

Good luck, and look on the bright side ...you can't rush into a hasty purchase at the moment !

Heather

 

[Peter_D]

OP, for my 'grab and go' set up, I have a Celestron C90 Maksutov on an old heavy duty Slik-67 tripod. Attached to the tripod I have this type of light weight Alt-Az adapter:

https://www.telescope.com/mobileProduct/Orion-Precision-Slow-Motion-Adapter/7033.uts

Mine is made by Vixen but the Orion one would work just as well with a  90 or 100mm Maksutov. The 127mm Mak might be pushing things though.

I tend to buy used astro gear on eBay. If a person claims not to know anything about the equipment they are selling, steer clear. If I see an item that interests me, I always check what else the seller has on offer. If they have more astro gear and a very good reputation (make sure it's over several years and not just on a small number of items), you should be ok. Finally, I now only ever buy items using Paypal after getting scammed before - thankfully it was for a small amount but I learnt my lesson.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Peter_D