First Light.. A comedy of errors lol

[Osiris777]

Hi All,

Well I finally took the dive into getting some gear.. purchased HEQ5-Pro mount, WO Z73 and 50mm guide scope, ZWI120mini for guiding, and pole master for PA.  Shooting through the trusty old Canon T3.  I had a chance to finally (after nearly a month of constant clouds on nights I'd be able to try) give a shot on Friday night, with a relatively dark night in Boatel 3/4 zone up in the north country of New Hampshire (My folks live up there, so its a nice trip from Boston to see the folks and have some dark skies).  Once I arrived, the fun Began:

1). I forgot to bring the mounting rings for the guide scope.. so no guiding..

2) The adapter that arrived with my Polemaster is the wrong one, and doesn't fit inside the HEA pole scope hole.  Didn't check this until it was time to set up the mount.

3) As I'd been planning on using the Polemaster for PA, I hadn't calibrated the PA scope, so when I looked through, it was turned about 30 degrees off center and moves about 1" off when I turn the mount 180'.  Decided to just give it a try as night was coming in fast.

4). After trying for quite a while to get the PA best I could (Eyeballing off from PS Align app), and attempting a 3 star alignment, and the telescope started slewing towards the ground while looking for Capella.. I knew there was a problem.  Gave it the old tech trick of "turn it off and on again", only to realize I needed to redo the date/time setup, and then realized the GPS coordinates that PS Align was giving me weren't actually where I was (perhaps due to the bad cell service at the location).  Finally got the GPS right, and attempted to do the star alignment again.

5). With no guide scope, it was next to impossible to figure out where I needed to adjust the telescope to find the alignment star.. enter Dave... randomly holding down arrow keys slewing this way and that for at least 10 minutes before finally finding the star.  Focusing with the Built in Bahtinov mask was actually incredibly easy once I was centered.  I then attempted to go over to Vega for star #2, and realized in the time I'd been fussing around, it had moved behind the chimney of the house.. no help.  After attempting to find Rigel and having mild success, I decided just to give it a go, as it was already approaching 9pm and I just wanted to get *Something*

6). It was incredibly cold out.. 15 degrees F air temp when I started, 9 degrees F when I ended, freezing... I planned on using the laptop for controlling the camera, but realized even when plugged in, the battery couldn't handle the cold and the comp died after about 15 minutes.. also killing my lens heater.  So I plugged in the cheap intervalometer and let it go shooting away.  I was using 30 second exposures on the Horsehead and Andromeda, and then tried for some 60 second exposures on M101 just to see if I could capture it.  I assume due to the cold, but after looking at the image data... it was shooting all over the place in exposure times. one frame would be 20 seconds, next 1/250 second, 29 seconds, 15 seconds, etc.. realized if I "stop/start" the sequence it would be good for a bit..

7) Frost began to develop on everything that was left out, including the scope lens as I assume can be seen in the weird diffraction on stars in the pics (aside from the trails due to bad polar alignment and no guiding)

8). Once I finished, tried to do dark frames, set up to take 30 x 60s exposures, and was just going to use them for both the 30s and 60s lights I'd captured.  I started the sequence and came out about 30 minutes later, only to see it had opened the shutter.. and and was still counting.. on a 29+ minute single "dark" exposure lol

9) I did take flats and bias frames, but by that time I'd cold burned my hand taking the scope off the mount, was dead tired, and wasn't even sure I'd captured anything.. long night.  I did a quick process in Siril and Gimp (post-processing is clearly going to take just as much time as learning how to use the physical equipment, and I'm sure like most newbs.. I overdid the hell out of my levels, saturation, and contrast)

Anyhow, I am glad that I persevered, as even though my pics aren't of the quality I was hoping.. I can see the 'possibilities' of what will be possible with a thorough understanding of how to use all the gear, have everything working, and with a lot more practice and patience hopefully get some much higher quality images.  Thanks and rant over haha!

 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Yes all about normal for a first night. 🙂

Well actually no it isn't, you got some pretty decent shots which I bet most do not on their first attempt. So well done.

I would have been more than happy with decent images of 3 targets, I think I managed to get something that looked like Orion Nebula but to be fair you can get a single shot of that to look good but for sure I think I had a similar debacle on my first night.

A lot of imaging does come with practice especially getting set-up on a target and actually taking images. I think for many of my first sessions I was two or three hours into the session before I saw a recognizable image on the screen, but in a way that was good as if something went wrong I always wanted to know exactly what so rather than just somehow getting an image in view and then start tracking so often I would sacrifice some imaging time and return the mount to home and start again till I got it right. Then eventually you will be able to set up, align in minutes and be imaging instead of hours.

Of course there are still nights it doesn't go quite to plan and from other threads I see I think most of us have these from time to time.

Well done, enjoy this great hobby obsession 🙂 

Steve

Edited December 21, 2020 by teoria_del_big_bang

[michael8554]

Always have a Plan B.

Look up "Polar Drift Alignment" using a high-power reticule eyepiece.

And "DARV Polar Alignment", which uses your DSLR.

To help find Alignment Stars you need a Finderscope, accurately aligned to the imaging scope.

Hope you're not using the Finderscope dovetail slot to mount the Guidescope, much too wobbly for accurate guiding.

Also instead of spending hours taking Darks, Dither the DSLR 12 pixels, and take Bias (capped off at fastest shutter speed), and load these as Darks in the Stacking software.

To speed up Star Alignment, just SYNCH on a star near your target, then a GoTo the target should be in the FOV.

Great results despite !

[wimvb]

I guess you found out that there's no such thing as point & shoot in astrophotography. A few hints to improve your results, apart from having the correct gear with you (😉 )

Get to know the constellations and the main stars in them. This will speed up alignment.

Decide for only one exposure time, regardless of target (except the Orion neb), also keep iso constant.

Only plan ( = keyword) for at most two targets per night, one for earlier, the other for later. Forget about astro-tourism where you want to shoot all the landmarks in one night.

Collect at least two hours of data per target, more if you have light pollution, regardless of your single sub exposure time. Better data will make processing easier.

And finally, have fun. Despite all the misshaps and cold.

[Shimonu]

On my first night out I never got done polar aligning and never took a picture, due to various problems. I had to go out another night to get my first light. I also have the WO Z73, nice to see how those targets are framed with the scope. Might be worth a try with some smaller galaxies, wasn't sure how big they would be.

[gorann]

To me that sounds and looks like a success for being the first light. Many says that darks do more harm (add noise) than good for a DSLR since you have no control over the sensor temperature and in your case it was most likely changing a lot due to the falling outdoor temperature.

[Osiris777]

Thanks for the great tips all.  Yes, this is def turning into an obsession.. I'll need to convince my gf that this is all an investment in mental health (though, judging by how I was acting when I realized I'd forgotten gear.. she may beg to differ) lol.  and to add some further reinforcement to the "Don't try and shoot everything in one night.. I just realized I'd also spent about 25 minutes on the Pleiades lol... 

Also, just so I can feel less stressed about it.. these massive diffraction spikes, is it really safe to assume these are being caused by contraction due to the very cold temps (it was below 10 degrees F) and are the grub screws messing with it?  It is a brand new scope, and I really hope there isn't a problem with it.  

[Osiris777]

Oh.. one other questions.  I did have the flat73 installed in front of the DSLR, so is it most likely just again that I had a terrible PA and no guiding that is causing that warping at the edge?  Or does that seem to be potentially an issue with the flattener needing to be adjusted?  Thanks so much, I would be 10000% lost were it not for this stargazers community  (and especially how patient you folks who have been at this for years have been with newbs like me, it makes an already incredibly intimidating undertaking so much less so)

[wimvb]

I don’t use refractors, but know at least that the distance between flattener and sensor is critical, and needs to be 55mm, unless otherwise stated in the specifications. The wrong distance will give you elongated stars in the corners. The flange to sensor distance of most dslrs is approximatively 45 mm, and the camera adapter usually 10mm. Total 55mm. Others should be able to tell you how critical that distance is for your scope.

The diffraction shadows around bright stars are a bit odd. If you look into the telescope, front to camera, and you see any tiny obstructions, you have found the probable cause. At 10 F, the lens cell may also start to contract, causing so called pinched optics, which will deform star shapes. No one ever said this hobby was easy. 😀

[Shimonu]

14 hours ago, Osiris777 said:

Oh.. one other questions.  I did have the flat73 installed in front of the DSLR, so is it most likely just again that I had a terrible PA and no guiding that is causing that warping at the edge?  Or does that seem to be potentially an issue with the flattener needing to be adjusted?  Thanks so much, I would be 10000% lost were it not for this stargazers community  (and especially how patient you folks who have been at this for years have been with newbs like me, it makes an already incredibly intimidating undertaking so much less so)

Did you set the correct backfocus for the flattener? I believe it should be something like 14.3 mm. The warping at the edges is due to the field not being flat, notice how it's warping out towards the edges. If it was your polar alignment or missing guiding then all stars would look elongated.

 

That's an amazing picture by the way. What do you use for editing your pictures? Maybe I missed it.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Shimonu

[Osiris777]

I didn't check the back focus, dumb question... but where am I measuring from where to where?  I understand, that makes sense that it would all look warped if it wasn't due to warping at the edges (and the images I posted were cropped, the full frame was actually even worse at the edges).

 

I just used Siri for stacking and then Gimp for the editing.  I know I'm making a lot of newb mistakes with the editing, but basically I just wanted to get something pleasing to the eye.  Just adjusted levels, some quick curves, contrast, and some saturation.

I just really hope there isn't any issue with the scope, re:  the bizarre star spikes.

Anyone else with Z73 had that issue?

[Shimonu]

2 minutes ago, Osiris777 said:

I didn't check the back focus, dumb question... but where am I measuring from where to where?  I understand, that makes sense that it would all look warped if it wasn't due to warping at the edges (and the images I posted were cropped, the full frame was actually even worse at the edges).

 

I just used Siri for stacking and then Gimp for the editing.  I know I'm making a lot of newb mistakes with the editing, but basically I just wanted to get something pleasing to the eye.  Just adjusted levels, some quick curves, contrast, and some saturation.

I just really hope there isn't any issue with the scope, re:  the bizarre star spikes.

Anyone else with Z73 had that issue?

Here is an image from FLO which shows what it should look like, and it was 11.4 mm.

Here's a link to the page of the Flat 73 with a guide on how to attach and adjust it.

[Osiris777]

Oh jeez.. I should have done some research, thanks a ton Shimonu.  It even has the distances marked lol 🙈😅

[rickwayne]

Shockingly good results for such a Charlie-Foxtrot first night. My guideline is that if smoke doesn't come out of any of your equipment at any point, it counts as a win. (Yes, I have, and yes it did, and yes, iOptron was really good about replacing the burnt bits.)

Checklist. Speaking as an aviator who survived twenty-plus years of, er, me...checklists be your friend, dude.

Helps to set up in daylight and run through everything possible while you're NOT freezing in the dark, too.

[Osiris777]

1 hour ago, rickwayne said:

Shockingly good results for such a Charlie-Foxtrot first night. My guideline is that if smoke doesn't come out of any of your equipment at any point, it counts as a win. (Yes, I have, and yes it did, and yes, iOptron was really good about replacing the burnt bits.)

Checklist. Speaking as an aviator who survived twenty-plus years of, er, me...checklists be your friend, dude.

Helps to set up in daylight and run through everything possible while you're NOT freezing in the dark, too.

I was just about to say, reading the Charlie-fox comment you might be military haha.  I was an 11b in the Army, 2004-2008, and I will definitely be going with a checklist.. and the "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" mantra next time I'm out (hopefully this weekend will give some chances to start drilling in the sequence, as it's going to be bright and I won't be concerned with getting any long deep exposures). 

I'm still [removed word] the pole master adapter doesn't fit, and supposedly the new one is coming from somewhere in Russia in the next "1-45 days" according to the 'tracking'.  This will give me a chance to actually go through the calibration of the polar scope, properly setting home position, and actually *hopefully* perform a halfway decent manual polar alignment.

I'm going to do as you suggest and practice this in the daylight as well, when not sub-zero and since I'll be trying to connect PC and run with the guide scope and cam it will add yet another degree of complexity (as this will be the first run with that as well).  Found some great tube tutorials that should hopefully be a guide to walk through the whole thing.

Anyhow, it seems like I'm about running as I should at this point lol I can imagine the joy felt some months down the line when everything finally runs "right" for a full sequence of shots to get a truly great image... sort of need all these pull your hair out nights to appreciate it! 

[nephilim]

I'm really surprised you collected so much detail with only 30's exposures (is your camera modified ? You have good Ha on the Horsehead) & M45 has come out amazingly well as getting the nebulosity to come through isn't easy & most images I've seen with that amount of nebulosity have taken upwards of 3hours, I suppose that's the benefit of having pretty dark skies (what exposure lengths & iso settings were you using for M45) , I'd be more than happy with results like that on my first attempt.

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by nephilim

[Chris]

Well done! that's a mighty good first light  worth the literal pain lol I love M45 because you don't need a modded camara to bring out reflection nebula. I think you've 'black clipped' the histogram a tad because the background sky is pitch black, but I'm guessing this was to remove gradient and vignetting? Apart from that these are as good as you could possibly expect for short unguided exposures, you've pulled out a lot a nebulae with not too much noise, well done on that   

[Ande]

On 22/12/2020 at 04:37, Osiris777 said:

Thanks for the great tips all.  Yes, this is def turning into an obsession.. I'll need to convince my gf that this is all an investment in mental health (though, judging by how I was acting when I realized I'd forgotten gear.. she may beg to differ) lol.  and to add some further reinforcement to the "Don't try and shoot everything in one night.. I just realized I'd also spent about 25 minutes on the Pleiades lol... 

Also, just so I can feel less stressed about it.. these massive diffraction spikes, is it really safe to assume these are being caused by contraction due to the very cold temps (it was below 10 degrees F) and are the grub screws messing with it?  It is a brand new scope, and I really hope there isn't a problem with it.  

Well, the Pleiades picture alone was worth the entrance price.  Very nice. I would be well proud of that

[rickwayne]

Depending on  what software you settle on for running the scope and acquiring data, you might want to figure out plate solving sooner rather than later. For newer versions of the stuff I use (KStars/Ekos) it's pretty much pushbutton out of the box, and you would not BELIEVE how much less frustrating imaging can be when you can select a target on the computer and say "go to that", and the gear happily cycles through taking a frame, analyzing where it's pointing, slewing the scope, rinse and repeat until your target is centered to within a minute of arc.

The old salts will say that you should learn the sky until you can do it manually, but life's too short and good imaging nights too rare. Admittedly if it busts for an evening I'm pretty well out of business, but that's awfully rare. I've lost way more imaging time to not being able to FIND THE FRICKIN' TARGET.

[Osiris777]

On 24/12/2020 at 04:16, nephilim said:

I'm really surprised you collected so much detail with only 30's exposures (is your camera modified ? You have good Ha on the Horsehead) & M45 has come out amazingly well as getting the nebulosity to come through isn't easy & most images I've seen with that amount of nebulosity have taken upwards of 3hours, I suppose that's the benefit of having pretty dark skies (what exposure lengths & iso settings were you using for M45) , I'd be more than happy with results like that on my first attempt.

 

Camera is just a stock T3 Canon.  My dad's house is just on the edge between a Bottle 3 and 2, and looking northeast is the direction of M45 which is pretty dark.  I can't wait to give it a try during the next new moon, as I'll hopefully have a lot more of the basic stuff down to get some good amount of data on this one.  It's going to be my main target for the next time up there.

On 24/12/2020 at 04:16, nephilim said:

 

 

[Osiris777]

On 24/12/2020 at 04:38, Lockie said:

Well done! that's a mighty good first light  worth the literal pain lol I love M45 because you don't need a modded camara to bring out reflection nebula. I think you've 'black clipped' the histogram a tad because the background sky is pitch black, but I'm guessing this was to remove gradient and vignetting? Apart from that these are as good as you could possibly expect for short unguided exposures, you've pulled out a lot a nebulae with not too much noise, well done on that   

I was using Gimp to process, and yea.. I think as a newcomer, I definitely overdid it on clipping the dark side.  My GF got me Photoshop elements for Christmas (along with a copy of the deep sky imaging primer), so I'm excited to improve the processing side as I gain experience.  Thanks for the encouraging words!

[Osiris777]

On 24/12/2020 at 19:40, rickwayne said:

Depending on  what software you settle on for running the scope and acquiring data, you might want to figure out plate solving sooner rather than later. For newer versions of the stuff I use (KStars/Ekos) it's pretty much pushbutton out of the box, and you would not BELIEVE how much less frustrating imaging can be when you can select a target on the computer and say "go to that", and the gear happily cycles through taking a frame, analyzing where it's pointing, slewing the scope, rinse and repeat until your target is centered to within a minute of arc.

The old salts will say that you should learn the sky until you can do it manually, but life's too short and good imaging nights too rare. Admittedly if it busts for an evening I'm pretty well out of business, but that's awfully rare. I've lost way more imaging time to not being able to FIND THE FRICKIN' TARGET.

I want to learn with my current gear, before adding another variable to the mix.. I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed just trying to figure out basic star alignment and setting up for guiding.  I assume as things move along, this may definitely be the way to go, thanks for your advice!

[rickwayne]

I think that's a very reasonable attitude. The only reason I suggested it is that it takes no extra kit, and (again, depending on what you already have) perhaps no extra software either.

As Einstein said, "Everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." If you find that you can  usually get on-target with a minimum of ceremony, good on ya. If you find that you're struggling to get targets in view within a reasonable time (Bog knows I do), might be time to revisit the idea.

It is something you can at least get mostly set up in the  daytime, without spending dark-sky time cursing at it.

[Osiris777]

44 minutes ago, rickwayne said:

I think that's a very reasonable attitude. The only reason I suggested it is that it takes no extra kit, and (again, depending on what you already have) perhaps no extra software either.

As Einstein said, "Everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." If you find that you can  usually get on-target with a minimum of ceremony, good on ya. If you find that you're struggling to get targets in view within a reasonable time (Bog knows I do), might be time to revisit the idea.

It is something you can at least get mostly set up in the  daytime, without spending dark-sky time cursing at it.

Setting up in Daytime would be a huge boost to my survival lol, especially as we get into the heart of winter, it really gets frigid up here in the northeast!  Do you have some tutorials/recommend videos or pages that would point me in the right direction?  Thanks a bunch!