Quality of eyepieces in beginner's to mid-range telescopes

[Stefan22]

Not quite a beginner here, I used to watch the sky a lot with a 114/900 newton from the department store when I was a teen, more than 30 years ago. Now I want to start again and have to learn a lot of things. My old reflector still works and I recently watched Saturn and Jupiter. With my 10x50 binoculars I found (and watched) the larger DSOs (M31, M45, M13) and Uranus. There's also a Travelscope 70/400 in our household, but the 10mm eyepiece is missing and the mount is crap.

I now want to get some new equipment.

I'm not sure about the type of telescope yet. But during research I found a lot of reviews and opinions about some typical beginner or mid-range telescopes (OTAs and mounts), but not a lot of information about the oculars (and other accessories) that are often provided with them.

Here are some telescopes of different type I'm looking at:

• Skywatcher Startravel-102 102/500: 10mm and 25mm and an amici prism
• Celestron 127 mm Maksutov 127/1500: 9mm and 25mm and a star diagonal as well as a red dot finder
• Orion 203/1200 SkyQuest XT8 Classic: 25mm and a red dot finder

Are the oculars coming with these telescopes good, okay, bad or crap? (Let's put the questions about which type of telescope I'll get aside for the sake of this thread, please.)

1. How can I find out how good the provided eye pieces and other accessories of a given package are? Are there any hints or do I have to find reviews of that very package?
2. Are the provided oculars changing often? As in last year this package provided oculars with okay quality but the same package this year contains really bad ones?
3. Are there any brands that typically deliver better oculars than others? (I've already learned that most brands are just selling Synta products nowadays)
4. How much do I have to spend for an ocular that would be a visible improvement over the provided eyepieces?
5. As I have to wear glasses (more than 6 diopters and heavy asigmatism) I think I need oculars with long eye relief. How long should the eye relief of a ocular be at least when I'm watching with glasses?
6. And a bonus question: Let's assume I'll put the 70/400 travelscope on a better mount and tripod. Will a better ocular yield a noticeable improvement?

Sorry for all that questions!

[Louis D]

38 minutes ago, Stefan22 said:

1. How can I find out how good the provided eye pieces and other accessories of a given package are? Are there any hints or do I have to find reviews of that very package?
2. Are the provided oculars changing often? As in last year this package provided oculars with okay quality but the same package this year contains really bad ones?
3. Are there any brands that typically deliver better oculars than others? (I've already learned that most brands are just selling Synta products nowadays)
4. How much do I have to spend for an ocular that would be a visible improvement over the provided eyepieces?
5. As I have to wear glasses (more than 6 diopters and heavy asigmatism) I think I need oculars with long eye relief. How long should the eye relief of a ocular be at least when I'm watching with glasses?
6. And a bonus question: Let's assume I'll put the 70/400 travelscope on a better mount and tripod. Will a better ocular yield a noticeable improvement?

1. Read reviews here and on Cloudy Nights.  Typically, the 25mm eyepieces aren't too bad while the 10mm eyepieces are generally bad.
2. The eyepieces are basically unchanged since you were a child except that manufacturing has moved to mainland China.
3. Tele Vue, Pentax, Nikon, Zeiss, Leica, Takahashi, and a few others generally produce only high quality eyepieces.  Baader and Explore Scientific are a step down from them.  Orion, Celestron, Meade, and a bunch of others sell a massive range of eyepieces under their own brands from several different Chinese and Taiwanese optical houses.  The quality varies from line to line.  Then there are the various astro retailers' house branded eyepieces which typically come from the same suppliers.
4. A GSO/Revelation or similar Plossl would be an improvement over the included eyepieces for not a lot more money.  The BST Starguiders offer better eye relief and a wider field of view for a bit more money than those Plossls.  After that, it generally takes major jumps in spending to see noticeable improvement in performance.  Those jumps come in the areas of resolution, contrast, apparent field of view, and usable eye relief (among others).
5. You generally need at least 18mm of usable eye relief for eyeglasses I've found.  It can be less if your eyes aren't set as deeply as mine or more if you wear glasses that don't fit closely to your face.  In general, be very skeptical about eye relief numbers quoted by dealers and manufacturers.  Many are quoting design eye relief which is measured from the center of the eye lens.  If that lens is deeply concave and/or deeply recessed in the housing, the usable eye relief can be much less.  I recommend asking on here about specific eyepieces and whether or not they are comfortable for use with eyeglasses.
6. Probably a little, but not a lot.  That scope may have a decent objective lens, but it also has loads of violet fringing at higher powers.  I have the 70/300 version that I converted into a super-finderscope, and it needs a field flattener due to the very short focal length.  However, with a high dollar wide field 2" eyepiece, a 2" 99% dielectric diagonal, and a high dollar field flattener (over $500 together), it does work surprisingly well at 8x for a $25 ebay find.

[RT65CB-SWL]

Hi @Stefan22 and welcome to SGL. 

It depends on whether you are visual, imager or both, as no telescope does all and ease of setup.

1 hour ago, Stefan22 said:

• Skywatcher Startravel-102 102/500: 10mm and 25mm and an amici prism
• Celestron 127 mm Maksutov 127/1500: 9mm and 25mm and a star diagonal as well as a red dot finder
• Orion 203/1200 SkyQuest XT8 Classic: 25mm and a red dot finder

• Startravel-102 Good entry level 'scope for lunar and planetary observing.
• For lunar and planetary, then my choice would be the 127mm Maksutov. Also being a 'small' package, it can be used for other outdoor pursuits. If you go for this, add a dewshield to the order/purchase... any catadioptric 'scope is a dew-magnet.
• Orion XT8 - A good all rounder for many. Assuming it is the 'Dobsonian', just place on a level surface and start observing. You may need to check the collimation before use.

With regards to the second part, there are many brands and types of e/p's I don't know where to start. The supplied 10mm e/p is a bit rubbish and 25mm e/p ok for most targets. BST Starguiders https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bst-starguider-eyepieces.html would be a big improvement and are reasonably priced if on a budget and a good following by some SGL'ers. Other members or owners will be able to advise. I myself have gone TeleVue... and I am satisfied by their ethos; (and I don't mean the e/p series); and a few other brands.

With regards to mounting, I am purely visual, so I use alt-az mounts for ease of use and no fuss setup. Below are a few images of what I use mount wise...

        

Edited August 31, 2020 by Philip R

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, Stefan22 said:

Here are some telescopes of different type I'm looking at:

• Skywatcher Startravel-102 102/500: 10mm and 25mm and an amici prism
• Celestron 127 mm Maksutov 127/1500: 9mm and 25mm and a star diagonal as well as a red dot finder
• Orion 203/1200 SkyQuest XT8 Classic: 25mm and a red dot finder

If you need portability, the Mak is hard to beat.  I have a couple of them, and they're very nice and also gentle on eyepieces due to their long focal ratios.

The Startravel-102 is going to be very similar to the Travelscope 70/400, if not a bit worse with regards to violet fringing.  It will have slightly better resolution and light grasp

The 8" Dob is easily the best of the bunch here.  However, it is large and heavy, so be aware of that.  The views will be spectacular compared to anything else in this price range.

[vlaiv]

In general, accessories that you get with such scopes are just to get you going.

Diagonal and eyepieces are first to be replaced.  Red dot finder is not that bad and if you need light weight finder - it is actually very usable although might not be the best mechanically (but you don't use it that much so it bothers you). Same goes for optical finders - 5x24 - usually plastic item, but 6x30 can be decent and 8x50 being quite nice unit, but often get exchanged for RACI versions.

[Cosmic Geoff]

Re your headline - don't buy on the basis of what eyepieces and accessories are bundled with your telescope of choice.  With entry level telescopes they can be assumed to be cheapies of poor quality and intended to just get you going.  The 9/10mm eyepieces are particularly poor.  If they did bundle decent eyepieces with the kits, the kits would cost a lot more and you would be deterred from buying.

The three telescopes you cite are radically different, and I suggest you think more about what you want to do, and with what sort of telescope. You also should think about how you want to mount them, and why.

I have the Startravel 102mm - it's quite well made, but is a widefield telescope and not really suited to viewing at high magnification (e.g. not great on planets or the Moon). Under some conditions it shows noticeable chromatic aberration and field distortion.  I have used mine for EEVA imaging.  Mine came with a 45 deg. prism not suitable for astronomical use.

I also have the Celestron 127mm Mak - it's a good quality scope that I really like and intend to keep. Works well at high magnification (if you buy a good quality eyepiece)

The Orion will give you lots of aperture for your money, but what about the mount?  If it's a Dobsonian, that will be cheap and simple. But people would not spend ££££ on expensive GoTo mounts if a cheap and simple mount did everything.

[Stefan22]

Wow, thank you all very much for your detailed replies! 

When I understand the gist of your replies, I'll probably soon want better eyepieces and diagonals. So I will consider that when choosing a telescope.

Tele Vue or Pentax are definitely out of my planned budget, which I should have told you in the beginning. I'll intend to spend about 500 to 1000 Euros, not necessarily all at once. I'd love to grow step by step to better understand what each part of equipment brings. And I'm just looking for visual equipment. (I've already started doing some AP, but for now I just use my DSLR with an old 50mm 1,7 lens and a photo tripod. I'm impressed what's possible with this simple equipment even without any guiding.)

BST Starguider are often recommended, but none of the big telescope shops in Germany seem to sell them. And there are even no offers from german Ebay users. The Baader Hyperion get recommended for users with glasses. At least I've seen the recommendation on several occasions now. So, I'll have to calculate about 150 Euro for a decent eyepiece.

(Regarding the OTA I'm gonna choose one day: I'm still torn between best performance and portability. But as I have a lot of things to research and to ask, I'll open a dedicated thread later.)

[johninderby]

FLO ships to Germany.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/search/for/starguider/

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, Stefan22 said:

BST Starguider are often recommended, but none of the big telescope shops in Germany seem to sell them.

I see that TS Optics sells the range as the TS N-ED flat field eyepiece.  Aren't they German?

[Stargazer Joe]

I have an Orion SkyQuest XT10 PLUS, just a little larger then one your considering. It came with great eyepieces. 10mm, 28mm and a 2X Barlow. I have found these to be of excellent quality, and all I need for the time being. 

I would avoid buying any eyepiece that begin with a capital "H".

[John]

I've noticed that Orion often supply plossl eyepieces with their scopes which are a better design than the achromatic huygenian eyepieces that are supplied with many other brands. Some of the lower end scopes only come with non-achromat huygens or ramsden type eyepieces which are even poorer than the AH types.

Of course premium branded scopes don't come with any eyepieces at all !

 

 

[Stefan22]

teleskop-express.de is a german shop, I just did not realize the N-ED eyepieces are the same as the BST Starguider.

But when you look at the images, they really look the same:
https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p4934_TS-Optics-1-25--ED-Eyepiece-8mm---60--Flat-Field---high-contrast.html
https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bst-starguider-eyepieces/bst-starguider-60-8mm-ed-eyepiece.html

Thank you!

 

1 hour ago, johninderby said:

FLO ships to Germany.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/search/for/starguider/

Never thought this could be a viable option, but even with shipping, FLO is way cheaper.

[Stefan22]

13 minutes ago, Stargazer Joe said:

I have an Orion SkyQuest XT10 PLUS, just a little larger then one your considering. It came with great eyepieces. 10mm, 28mm and a 2X Barlow. I have found these to be of excellent quality, and all I need for the time being. 

I would avoid buying any eyepiece that begin with a capital "H".

The eyepieces from my old 114/900 newton are Huygens and have an "H" printed on them. As they are 0.965 inches, they are useless nonetheless for newer scopes.

[johninderby]

11 minutes ago, Stefan22 said:

teleskop-express.de is a german shop, I just did not realize the N-ED eyepieces are the same as the BST Starguider.

But when you look at the images, they really look the same:
https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p4934_TS-Optics-1-25--ED-Eyepiece-8mm---60--Flat-Field---high-contrast.html
https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bst-starguider-eyepieces/bst-starguider-60-8mm-ed-eyepiece.html

Thank you!

 

Never thought this could be a viable option, but even with shipping, FLO is way cheaper.

FLO is about 52 Euro vs 94 Euro. 🙀

TS has a lot of great items and while prices are good on some of them prices on other things are  a bit crazy compared to UK prices.

 

Edited August 31, 2020 by johninderby

[vlaiv]

4 minutes ago, Stefan22 said:

Never thought this could be a viable option, but even with shipping, FLO is way cheaper.

There could be actual reason for that, but TS could also be trying to earn more on same items.

Many of those eyepieces are manufactured by same company, but may not be to the same level of quality or from same materials. I'm not saying that with BST Starguiders vs N-EDs is this case, but here are some such cases:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-eyepieces/skywatcher-uwa-planetary-eyepieces.html

vs

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p154_TS-Optics-7-mm-Planetary-HR---1-25--Eyepiece--58---fully-multi-coated.html

Again, TS version are more expensive but I think generally believed by many to be the best version of this planetary design (originally TMB) currently being produced.

Then we have these:

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p4923_TS-Optics-Ultra-Wide-Angle-Eyepiece-6-mm-1-25----66--field-of-view.html

vs these:

https://www.svbony.com/1-25-inch-66-degree-eyepieces/#F9157A

They should be the same design, but are coatings and finish of eyepieces and quality control the same? I don't really know.

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, Stefan22 said:

Never thought this could be a viable option, but even with shipping, FLO is way cheaper.

FLO also offers discount pricing at the levels of 2, 4, and 7 at once.

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, Stefan22 said:

teleskop-express.de is a german shop, I just did not realize the N-ED eyepieces are the same as the BST Starguider.

But when you look at the images, they really look the same:
https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p4934_TS-Optics-1-25--ED-Eyepiece-8mm---60--Flat-Field---high-contrast.html
https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bst-starguider-eyepieces/bst-starguider-60-8mm-ed-eyepiece.html

Thank you!

They're also known as Astro Tech Paradigm and Agena Starguider Dual ED in the US.  Basically, if you order at least 300 of them at once (at least that's the number I've heard), the Chinese factory will screen print whatever name you want on them.  Even then, you may not get them branded correctly every time.  Some of FLO's BST Starguiders have come in labeled Astro Essentials.  Rest assured, they're all identical.

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, johninderby said:

FLO is about 52 Euro vs 94 Euro. 🙀

TS has a lot of great items and while prices are good on some of them prices on other things are  a bit crazy compared to UK prices.

Their TS branded ED and APO refractor prices seem to be much lower than their UK and US equivalents.

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, Stefan22 said:

The eyepieces from my old 114/900 newton are Huygens and have an "H" printed on them. As they are 0.965 inches, they are useless nonetheless for newer scopes.

You can pick up a 1.25" to 0.965 adapter off ebay for cheap if you want to give them a try.  I've found that some of the cheap Kellners (K) packaged with beginner scopes can actually be pretty decent performers.

[vlaiv]

14 minutes ago, Louis D said:

Rest assured, they're all identical.

Are you sure?

I think you can specify "extras" with your order - like type of coatings, barrel type, materials used and so on...

 

[Louis D]

3 hours ago, vlaiv said:

Many of those eyepieces are manufactured by same company, but may not be to the same level of quality or from same materials. I'm not saying that with BST Starguiders vs N-EDs is this case, but here are some such cases:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-eyepieces/skywatcher-uwa-planetary-eyepieces.html

vs

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p154_TS-Optics-7-mm-Planetary-HR---1-25--Eyepiece--58---fully-multi-coated.html

Again, TS version are more expensive but I think generally believed by many to be the best version of this planetary design (originally TMB) currently being produced.

Clearly, multiple Chinese factories have made their own clones of the TMB planetaries as evidenced in this thread:

I have seen no such evidence in the case of the BST Starguiders/Paradigms/Dual EDs/NED/etc.  That's why I tend to recommend them over the TMB Planetaries, their consistency across rebrandings.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Louis D

[Louis D]

2 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

Are you sure?

I think you can specify "extras" with your order - like type of coatings, barrel type, materials used and so on...

 

I have seen no evidence that there is any variance whatsoever.  They all seem to come from the same factory.  I seriously doubt that unless you were to order an entire production run of thousands of units that your could specify any of the build parameters.

[John]

I've not seen variance in the BST ED "Starguider" eyepieces, having used them under 3 brandings now.

I have seen variance with other eyepiece designs under different brandings though. Cosmetic changes but also different coatings being used on the lenses.

The BST ED "Starguiders" though, so far, seem to be the same apart from the printing on them.

 

[RT65CB-SWL]

3 hours ago, Stefan22 said:

The eyepieces from my old 114/900 newton are Huygens and have an "H" printed on them. As they are 0.965 inches, they are useless nonetheless for newer scopes.

You will need one of these adapters...

a 1.25" to 0.965" adapter as shown, next to my Fullerscopes 6mm Ortho.

Huygens e/p's maybe not as good as todays Plossl's etc., but better
than nothing until you have a little more disposable income saved. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Philip R

[Alan64]

I have this 4mm symmetrical-Ramsden, from a base Celestron telescope-kit, and I won't part with it, ever...

But these three from a base Meade telescope-kit produce views that are grainy, lattice-like...

I've looked through them once, but never again.

With the entry-level kits, one takes their chances, as in roulette.