To buy or not to buy a 10Micron GM2000

[DaveS]

Thanks

I've just emailed Rupert to say I'm quite happy with the ex-demo mount. At least I'll know it works .

My ex-demo DDM60 Pro has been very good so far *crosses fingers, touches wood*

[Datalord]

34 minutes ago, DaveS said:

At least I'll know it works

Funny, or scary, thing is that Rupert used the same wording with me.

Anyways, for anyone still watching this thread, I appreciate all the responses. I must admit the iOptron looks like a monster good purchase, but I'm confident I won't regret the ASA with all the praise it has received.

?‍♂️

[DaveS]

Well Rupert has just sent me an invoice for the deposit, which I have paid. I'll either get the possible second new one or his demonstrator from E-eye at a discount.

[Waldemar]

I can assure you that you both will be more then happy with the bigger DDM85, and not just because of the absolute encoders...
So congratulations with your purchase!!

The higher power of the DDM 85 over the DDM60 makes a big difference. A lot heavier as well... 
I do like the conventional adjusting system of my 85 Standard a better then the tilt system of the 60 for PA, although it works just as good. Just a personal preference...
I bought my DDM60Pro in 2010 as a successor of my Old Vixen Atlux ('91), had it upgraded with fixed encoders and better electronics in 2012 and traded it in for a DDM85Standard in 2017 and like you I would never want a non Direct Drive for main mount either. To be honest I kind of regret to have traded in the DDM60Pro and not kept it for traveling.
 

[Rainer]

On 17/03/2019 at 09:08, gorann said:

I assume you know that iOptron also have a big mount with absolute encoders. Half the price of the 10 Micron GM2000 but it is rather new and unproven (last time I checked a few months ago before I ordered my Mesu).

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/ioptron-mounts/ioptron-cem120-ec2-center-balanced-equatorial-goto-mount-with-ra-and-dec-encoders.html

Hi,

iOptron's CEM 120EC and EC2 do NOT have absolute encoders. They have incremental encoders and a homing system which is quite reliable to set it into the zero position and from there start again. A power outage does not matter as the last position is always remembered.

In regards to unguided imaging I dare to say that it is wishful thinking. OK, with encoders, be it absolute or incremental the mounts point always to the coordinates you made the GoTo, but, does the object remain there or does it wander due to refraction, thermal currents, not perfect Polar Alignment (which from my point of view is impossible to achieve) etc. So guiding is IMHO necessary but with encoders guiding becomes easier.

I have two CEM 120EC2 mounts and a lot of hours with them under dark sky and I dare to say Unguided imaging over 2 or 30 minutes are wishful thoughts. Too many variables in that time lapse. 300 and at utmost 600 second images unguided are possible but not at 2400 mm focal length.

I image with 999 mm and 3200 mm on my CEM 120 EC2.

regards Rainer

as always just IMHO and YMMV

PS Are two encoders worth it ? Yes and for the price of the CEM 120 EC2 even more. In 5 - 7 years when there is a new iOptron CEM 120XXX or even a CEM 240XXX the money you did not spent today will be a good reserve to get the newest one in the future ...

[DaveS]

Guiding is absolutely not needed with ASA mounts, in fact it can make things worse. The local model that Sequence does before an imaging run takes care of any PA errors, cone errors, and atmospheric refraction.

I've already imaged at 915mm and 0.89"pp over 600 sec subs with no trailing.

[Whirlwind]

38 minutes ago, DaveS said:

Guiding is absolutely not needed with ASA mounts, in fact it can make things worse. The local model that Sequence does before an imaging run takes care of any PA errors, cone errors, and atmospheric refraction.

I've already imaged at 915mm and 0.89"pp over 600 sec subs with no trailing.

I think this only applies to refractors though.  Any reflective system has a risk of flexure.  You may still need to guide such a system depending on how much 'flex' you get as the mount can't 'understand' this source of error.

[DaveS]

Um... there are routines in the ASA to measure the flex and hysteresis in the system. When Sequence does a MLPT before imaging it slews the 'scope to the end of the run and back first to eliminate hysteresis.

 

However, the proof of the pudding..... At some time this year, I hope to put an ODK12 reflector on a DDM85 and image at 0.61"pp with an Atik 16200, though that will be a bit extreme. More likely to image at 1.22"pp binned 2x2.

I think SCTs with floating primary mirrors are more likely to flex.

[Waldemar]

7 hours ago, Whirlwind said:

I think this only applies to refractors though.  Any reflective system has a risk of flexure.  You may still need to guide such a system depending on how much 'flex' you get as the mount can't 'understand' this source of error.

I invite you to scroll through the ASA website and read a bit... : (https://www.astrosysteme.com/) ASA does not make refractors

Also the ASA users forum maybe interesting to you, you can see incredible images from unguided (and guided) long fl reflectors as well as refractors on ASA mounts : http://forum.astrosysteme.com/index.php

In fact any system has the risk of flexure, but as long as it is repeatable, the ASA mounts can deal with it. As already mentioned by DaveS, the mount makes a trial run to see what happens 'along the road' and compensates for that. If you really want to know about that, read some of the on-line info and/or manuals

17 hours ago, Rainer said:

Hi,

I have two CEM 120EC2 mounts and a lot of hours with them under dark sky and I dare to say Unguided imaging over 2 or 30 minutes are wishful thoughts. Too many variables in that time lapse. 300 and at utmost 600 second images unguided are possible but not at 2400 mm focal length.

 

That is with your CEM 120EC2, Rainer... You never had an ASA mount, so you do not know what is possible or not with those. 
No mean comment intended, I respect you, but you are wrong about this. Check out the sites I mentioned earlier, please.

[Rainer]

4 hours ago, Waldemar said:

I invite you to scroll through the ASA website and read a bit... : (https://www.astrosysteme.com/) ASA does not make refractors

Also the ASA users forum maybe interesting to you, you can see incredible images from unguided (and guided) long fl reflectors as well as refractors on ASA mounts : http://forum.astrosysteme.com/index.php

In fact any system has the risk of flexure, but as long as it is repeatable, the ASA mounts can deal with it. As already mentioned by DaveS, the mount makes a trial run to see what happens 'along the road' and compensates for that. If you really want to know about that, read some of the on-line info and/or manuals

That is with your CEM 120EC2, Rainer... You never had an ASA mount, so you do not know what is possible or not with those. 
No mean comment intended, I respect you, but you are wrong about this. Check out the sites I mentioned earlier, please.

I can not create an account at the forum ...

 

 

[Whirlwind]

11 hours ago, DaveS said:

Um... there are routines in the ASA to measure the flex and hysteresis in the system. When Sequence does a MLPT before imaging it slews the 'scope to the end of the run and back first to eliminate hysteresis.

 

However, the proof of the pudding..... At some time this year, I hope to put an ODK12 reflector on a DDM85 and image at 0.61"pp with an Atik 16200, though that will be a bit extreme. More likely to image at 1.22"pp binned 2x2.

I think SCTs with floating primary mirrors are more likely to flex.

Yeah, I saw that you had one of these on order.  It will be interesting to see how well a mount would perform at such a focal length.  Short focal length reflectors or something like the ODK maybe OK because of where most of the weight is centred.  A longer focal length corrected Newtonian I'm not so sure. I've heard of both good and bad experiences.  I also see a lot of people going for AO at longer focal lengths which I think is to accommodate small flex issues that an encoder based mount can't handle on 'short' time frames (though I accept the point that the mount attempts to plan for long term changes).  Obviously SCTs are worse but I'd expect to see some in any reflector system (compared to a refractor which is more stable).

[Whirlwind]

5 hours ago, Waldemar said:

I invite you to scroll through the ASA website and read a bit... : (https://www.astrosysteme.com/) ASA does not make refractors

Also the ASA users forum maybe interesting to you, you can see incredible images from unguided (and guided) long fl reflectors as well as refractors on ASA mounts : http://forum.astrosysteme.com/index.php

In fact any system has the risk of flexure, but as long as it is repeatable, the ASA mounts can deal with it. As already mentioned by DaveS, the mount makes a trial run to see what happens 'along the road' and compensates for that. If you really want to know about that, read some of the on-line info and/or manuals

That is with your CEM 120EC2, Rainer... You never had an ASA mount, so you do not know what is possible or not with those. 
No mean comment intended, I respect you, but you are wrong about this. Check out the sites I mentioned earlier, please.

I'm not doubting that you can make some very fine images with ASA equipment.  However, a lot of the images are fast and relatively short focal length.  We also don't know how many images were discarded and what post processing was done with the images; averaging over several nights could easily broaden any slight flexure distortions in the combine and process.  I can accept long term repeatable flexure can be managed by any mount given the correct software, short term changes at higher resolution are likely to be another issue (obviously better telescopes should have less).  

[Waldemar]

8 hours ago, Rainer said:

I can not create an account at the forum ...

 

 

You don't need an account to read the posts: http://forum.astrosysteme.com/index.php

[Waldemar]

7 hours ago, Whirlwind said:

I'm not doubting that you can make some very fine images with ASA equipment.  However, a lot of the images are fast and relatively short focal length.  We also don't know how many images were discarded and what post processing was done with the images; averaging over several nights could easily broaden any slight flexure distortions in the combine and process.  I can accept long term repeatable flexure can be managed by any mount given the correct software, short term changes at higher resolution are likely to be another issue (obviously better telescopes should have less).  

Again I invite you to read the forum posts and have a look at the images. It is stated with what equipment , fl and time these images are made.
http://forum.astrosysteme.com/index.php?/forum/22-imaging/

[DaveS]

Alas this is becoming somewhat academic, since ASA have stopped making "low end" mounts. The only new DDM85 mounts are the ones that Datalord has ordered, and the one ASA have ready to be built (Rupert thinks). Other than that, there's the demonstrator at e-eye, which I'll have in the event that ASA don't actually have a mount ready.

I can't see DDM owners selling unless upgrading, and where will they upgrade to?

It's now likely to be between Mesu, 10micron, and iOptron.

Pity.

[Waldemar]

It is indeed a pity, ASA's 'low end' DDM85 is in a totally different league then all other mounts with gears.
I did not see prices of the DDM100, 200 and 500, but I am sure I won't need to upgrade for a few decades.
since I am 70 years old, this is probably my last mount ? so... personally I don't worry, but I do not think it is a smart move from ASA.
They kind of kick themselves out of the amateur market.  Their emphasis has always been on the professional market, though...

A DDM60Pro is on sale on the users forum: http://forum.astrosysteme.com/index.php?/topic/1054-asa-ddm-60-pro-for-sale/

[DaveS]

Yes, I saw that post, €6000. 

Not sure about the shipping from Poland though, I did consider it.

 

[Waldemar]

He will let it go for  6000 Brittish pounds... is almost € 7000. 
You considered it? Why if I may ask, you already have one...

 

[DaveS]

Because it would carry the ODK and be half the price of the DDM85.

As I said I considered it, for all of 10 mins, then decided to go with the more sensible option of the 85.

[Rainer]

11 hours ago, Waldemar said:

You don't need an account to read the posts: http://forum.astrosysteme.com/index.php

Hi Waldemar,

I appreciate your effort to convince me that my iOptron do not work good. No Problem ?? Just kidding

BTW, OK, I can read the forum but if the images are not in the forum I can not see them when I am not a member. Also the images I have seen and the telescope used just says 10" ASA but no focal length and so it is relative. I tried to find out the f ratio of a 10" ASA telescope but the poage of ASA does not list them anymore. The smallest one now is 400mm or ~15" ... Again I am walking in the dark about the capabilities of the mounts.

Believe me I do not want to read I want to see. Writing = Reading is subjective. Images are more or less Objective ...

I do not want to start a discussion here about what is better and so on. I have read many many postings os many many different mounts and most of the people just have had one or two brands and of course that one are then always the best. There is too much bias in writing about a product ... It will be never objective ...

I am happy with my iOptron and do not see why I should spent 3 or 4 times for a mount when the difference in the result = image is maybe 5% or less, or the difference is 5 hours PixInsight or 30 minutes Photoshop ?

Mount here, mount there, all is nice but the main problem is our atmospheric conditions and that will not change if I have a US $ 7,000.00 mount or a US $ 21,000.00 mount ...

Also the interest of the people is as different as we all are ...

Waldemar Thanks again and best regards Rainer

[Rainer]

On 19/03/2019 at 02:49, DaveS said:

Guiding is absolutely not needed with ASA mounts, in fact it can make things worse. The local model that Sequence does before an imaging run takes care of any PA errors, cone errors, and atmospheric refraction.

I've already imaged at 915mm and 0.89"pp over 600 sec subs with no trailing.

Me too 600 seconds not guided at 3200 mm focal length with an iOptron CEM 120EC2

The object is the Arp 3 and this is a single shot. Stacking many shots I guess makes the image even better ?

[Waldemar]

I am not saying your mount is not good Rainer. I am impressed by iOptrons efforts to make a really good and competitive mount.
I am just trrying to get things into perspective and not comparing apples with pears...

Direct drive is a totally different concept and in professional settings they are far more common then geared mounts.
In my humble opinion they are the way of the future for amateurs too.

I wonder if and when iOptron will walk that road. Would be quite interesting...

All the best!

[DaveS]

I wonder how tightly ASA have the patents worded? Be a pity if amateur level mounts were locked out by patent lawyers.

But in the absence of ASA, I would quite seriously look at the iOptron CEM120 EC2 with dual encoders.

[Rainer]

4 hours ago, Waldemar said:

I am not saying your mount is not good Rainer. I am impressed by iOptrons efforts to make a really good and competitive mount.
I am just trrying to get things into perspective and not comparing apples with pears...

Direct drive is a totally different concept and in professional settings they are far more common then geared mounts.
In my humble opinion they are the way of the future for amateurs too.

I wonder if and when iOptron will walk that road. Would be quite interesting...

All the best!

Hi Waldemar,

Quite true ( Apples = iOptron and Pears = ASA ? )and there you see ... I just saved US $ 14,000.00 by buying the iOptron and in a few years I can spend those US $ 14,000.00 on two " iOptron  CEM 180-DD " mounts with direct drive ... ?

Look, Waldemar, I stepped up from two Losmandy G11 8 completely overhauled and made better by me 15 years ago) and ahving had a tiny iOptron ZEQ 25GTO ( now CEM 25) I knew the build quality and yes I took the risk of being an early adopter of the EC2 technology. My mounts do ahce serian number GB 20001 and GB 20002. Yes the very first two beats of the EC2 line.

OK, there have been glitches which is very normal and every mount producers has had but I have time and I enjoy beta testing sometimes more then perhaps doing Pretty Images This beta testing makes me understand much better what I have then just unpacking a Plug & Play toy ...

Just day dreaming but quite possible as the Chinese guys are innovative and risky compared to some other " Premium Mount " manufacturers. Look at the Korean ? Rainbow mount ?

The future is going to be interesting ... and if the development pace keeps going like this we will sooner then later see some interesting stuff coming from the other side of the pond (for me in this case the Pacific Ocean)

Have a nice day or what is left of it

Rainer

[Datalord]

22 hours ago, DaveS said:

I wonder how tightly ASA have the patents worded? Be a pity if amateur level mounts were locked out by patent lawyers.

But in the absence of ASA, I would quite seriously look at the iOptron CEM120 EC2 with dual encoders.

Fully agree. If I could not get one of the last ASA, I would have tried an iOptron.