ercole or mini-ercole giro mount

[Piero]

8 hours ago, John said:

During the past 12 months I have owned both an Ercole, a Giro II (or maybe a III ?) and a Skytee II.

My goal was to find a single mount from those 3 that did the best job of handling my TMB / LZOS 130mm F/9.25 triplet.

After quite a few nights comparing them I was surprised at the outcome. The Ercole and the Giro II / III performed pretty much the same with the big frac on board. The Ercole seemed more sturdy because it is a more massive design but in terms of carrying the scope and minimising vibrations at high magnifications, there was little or nothing in it. That was the 1st surprise. The 2nd surprise was that the Skytee II proved better than both the Ercole and the Giro with the big refractor. There was less vibration, vibrations that did occur dampened more quickly and, with the ADM clamp upgrade, the Skytee II held the large, long optical tube more firmly in terms of being reasonably resistant to changes of weight at the focuser end eg: switching from 1.25" to 2" eyepieces.

I sold the Giro II / III on (reluctantly becuase I really liked the finish and simplicity of the mount) and ran the Ercole and the Skytee II together for a while. The Skytee II's advantages with my largest and heaviest refractor remained through that period though so I decided to let the Ercole go.

This was honestly not the outcome that I was expecting. I thought that the superior (German) engineering of the Ercole would give it the edge over Chinese made Skytee II and ultimately I had expected to sell that mount on. But I could not argue with the performance difference each time I used the mounts with the larger scope

The Skytee II has it's faults and it's finish is not in the Ercole, Giro or AYO class but it is a very capable heavy duty alt azimuth mount, once it's dovetail clamps have been upgraded from the poor stock items. It's overkill for the Tak and Vixen 4" fracs which is why I'm sussing out the new AZ5 from Skywatcher. For my ED120 and APM / LZOS 130 refractors the Skytee II does a very sound job IMHO.

My one remaining gripe is to remove some backlash that aflicts the Skytee II's azimuth slow motion control. More "tweaking" to be done there

BTW all the above comparisons were done using the Berlebach UNI 28 tripod which is a very sound companion to any of these mounts. Tall too, if you want it to be

 

John, you posted a very interesting text here. Thank you a lot for this. 

Your result is not something I'd have expected either, but on the other hand my experience with giro mounts is basically null. As I'd say that the components of the Skytee II are more on the cheap side compared to the components in the Ercole, your results seem to show how more effective a design can be against another. At least looking at them externally, I'd suspect that the larger bearings in the Skytee might be the reason behind the increase in stability and the better capacity in damping vibrations. 

 

I like the AOK AYO II the most, but I suspect that an Ercole-mini with a small counterweight on the other side will perform better with my ~5kg telescope (inc. everything) and light tripod than the AYO II without any counterweight and the same equipment.

My fear is something within the lines of post #42 in  https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/568768-its-here-well-most-of-it-ayo-master-ii-unboxing-later-today/page-2#entry7755684  . The mount is an Ayo master, the biggest of the AOK alt/az mounts. The telescope is considerably larger than the Tak-100 but well within the max payload of the mount head. The tripod can support that payload, but is light, too light. Now my point is that that mount on top of that tripod is overkill and the movement of its axial movements results compromised when nudging. 

The AYO II seems a great mount to me. The bearings seem as large as the Skytee, but with an overall better finish. I would believe that it works incredibly well on a solid tripod like the UNI18 or UNI28. On a lighter tripod (e.g. carbon fiber photo tripod) the resistance for the azimuth rotation might be too high though. That's my concern. 

The Ercole-Mini seems to do a great job with the Tak FC-100 of a few users. It seems to me that those Taks were DC using light 1.25" equipment (so a max payload around 3.5-3.7kg), whereas a DF with 2" equipment could go up to 5.8kg I reckon. Now, 2 kg is not a lot, but considering the specs of the Ercole-Mini, the two weights are at the opposite side regarding whether a counterweight is recommended or not. 

Ercole-Mini + bar + 2kg weight is heavier than an Ercole / AYO II. Will it be smoother? Possibly, however, the bearings are smaller... 

[jetstream]

5 hours ago, JG777 said:

I missed the delivery on the day but did manage to collect it the following day. I haven't had enough time to properly assess it or test the encoders as we were travelling away for a few days but when I get back will take some pics and maybe a mini review. I did quickly mount it on the UNI18 and attach my VX6 on it, moving it around was buttery smooth in Alt and AZ so my initial feelings are very positive. More to come!  

I'm very interested in how this set up works as well.

[jetstream]

12 hours ago, John said:

the Skytee II does a very sound job IMHO.

John, does Skywatcher still make this mount? how much backlash is there in the slo mo controls?

[John]

4 minutes ago, jetstream said:

John, does Skywatcher still make this mount? how much backlash is there in the slo mo controls?

I think some dealers have stock but I'm noit sure that it's in the current Skywatcher line up

There is some backlash on both axis on mine. More on the azimuth which is why I'd like to adjust it out as far as possible.

It's not a mount that is free of niggles by any means but there are not many mid-to-heavy duty alt-az options in the price bracket that the Skytee II does, or used to, sell at 

 

[Piero]

Well, I placed an order for an AOKswiss AYO II at FLO.  I just like it!  

It might take 1 month before delivering as not currently in stock, and I will be in Italy until the 11st Sept.. So it will take a while before a first light.  

[jetstream]

http://ca.skywatcher.com/product/product/hdaz-set/#

4 hours ago, John said:

I think some dealers have stock but I'm noit sure that it's in the current Skywatcher line up

John is this the same one? or is it new?

[jetstream]

7 minutes ago, Piero said:

Well, I placed an order for an AOKswiss AYO II at FLO.  I just like it!  

It might take 1 month before delivering as not currently in stock, and I will be in Italy until the 11st Sept.. So it will take a while before a first light.  

Congrats!!

[Piero]

26 minutes ago, jetstream said:

Congrats!!

Thank you! 

And thanks everyone for comments and suggestions too!

[John]

26 minutes ago, jetstream said:

http://ca.skywatcher.com/product/product/hdaz-set/#

John is this the same one? or is it new?

No Gerry, thats the mount that used to be called the Skytee I. It now seems to be marketed by a number of vendors / brandings as the Giant Alt-Azimuth Mount. Mark (at Beafort) had one and it seemed very well put together I thought - more polished than the Skytee II.

@Piero: nice choice of mount !

I'd like to try an AYO someday

 

[JG777]

36 minutes ago, Piero said:

Well, I placed an order for an AOKswiss AYO II at FLO.  I just like it!  

It might take 1 month before delivering as not currently in stock, and I will be in Italy until the 11st Sept.. So it will take a while before a first light.  

I hope you get yours quicker than me , I waited almost 6 months ! 

[Piero]

54 minutes ago, JG777 said:

I hope you get yours quicker than me , I waited almost 6 months ! 

Ouch!!!!   May I ask you what was the waiting time on FLO website when you placed the order, please? 

...hope not to have to wait until Christmas! 

[Stu]

19 minutes ago, Piero said:

Ouch!!!!   May I ask you what was the waiting time on FLO website when you placed the order, please? 

...hope not to have to wait until Christmas! 

I had a long wait too, can't remember exactly how long but that was for a direct order. Trouble is Beat is a one man band so if he gets a big project in then it can delay other work I think.

[JG777]

I ordered back in 1st week of February but I think the time quoted was three to four weeks. I don't honestly know why it took so long,  comms with Beat Kholer were a bit hit and miss and some things were lost in translation on the way. I know little about how he works or the order of things and it was about three months in that he told me the component parts were now at the anodising factory. Someone on CN mentioned to me he can get exceptionally busy and that part of the delay is waiting to have enough components to justify the anodising run which is done somewhere else. Also in that time he went on vacation for a number of weeks, but hey we all need a holiday so can't knock him for that. Maybe the fact that mine needed extra time for the encoders factored in, not entirely sure. Anyway the considered opinion on CN was to hang in there as it would be worth the wait so I took the good advice! Hopefully home in time tomorrow to post some piccies if not should be Tuesday. 

[Piero]

 

[Piero]

sob sob.. it will take what is necessary then.. 

I will use the Tak with my current photo tripod paying extra care and without pointing the telescope too high. So, no need to get a new tripod for now either..

[JG777]

8 minutes ago, Piero said:

sob sob.. it will take what is necessary then.. 

I will use the Tak with my current photo tripod paying extra care and without pointing the telescope too high. So, no need to get a new tripod for now either..

Well one of the alternatives I considered was this https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p7966_Losmandy-AZ8-Azimutale-Montierung---Feinverstellung---mit-Stativ.html might be worth a look, although this would have made my UNI 18 redundant. You can buy the head on its own and use it on a tripod of your choice. Having said that my VX6 F5 weighs in just over 5 kilos so that tripod with AZ8 would not be troubled much by this I suspect. Astro Devices have an encoder kit as well for this mount if adding DSC was the plan. 

Failing this the AYO is something you will only ever buy once and is a mount for a lifetimes work so if you feel it is right then the wait would be worth it. I do wish astronomy was more simple! 

[jetstream]

14 minutes ago, JG777 said:

Well one of the alternatives I considered was this https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p7966_Losmandy-AZ8-Azimutale-Montierung---Feinverstellung---mit-Stativ.html might be worth a look, although this would have made my UNI 18 redundant. You can buy the head on its own and use it on a tripod of your choice. Having said that my VX6 F5 weighs in just over 5 kilos so that tripod with AZ8 would not be troubled much by this I suspect. Astro Devices have an encoder kit as well for this mount if adding DSC was the plan. 

Failing this the AYO is something you will only ever buy once and is a mount for a lifetimes work so if you feel it is right then the wait would be worth it. I do wish astronomy was more simple! 

Funny you mention the Losmandy mount John, I am currently looking at purchasing one. Its too bad the AYO takes so long.

[Piero]

I just detached the mount head from the tripod of my current video mount (which is this one: https://cvp.com/index.php?t=product/manfrotto_mvh500ah||2c755xbk , Manfrotto MVH500AH,755XB 3 Section). It is straight forward. One only needs to unscrew three 1cm screws on the grey base, and then unscrew the mount head.  

If the Tak is really too wobbly on this video tripod, one solution is to get a new sturdier photo tripod (e.g. Gitzo or Induro) and move the current head on top of this new tripod. This could be a short term solution until the AyoII arrives.

[John]

The main challenge with mounting the Tak will be, not it's weight, not it's length, but that it takes high magnifications so well

 

 

[Piero]

7 minutes ago, John said:

The main challenge with mounting the Tak will be, not it's weight, not it's length, but that it takes high magnifications so well

Super! At some point I hope to have a chance to throw the 2.4mm HR in the diagonal and observe the Moon!   

Houston, we are taking off!

[John]

21 minutes ago, Piero said:

Super! At some point I hope to have a chance to throw the 2.4mm HR in the diagonal and observe the Moon!   

Houston, we are taking off!

Yes indeed !

My point was that overmounting these scopes is generally a good idea 

 

[JG777]

Piero,

A few images of my AYO II for you!