Driver issues with lodestar and polemaster

[Barv]

Hi

i wonder if someone can help me as I'm frankly pulling my hair out. I cannot get my polemaster or lodestar cameras working on my Alienware 17" laptop. I know they work because they work on my I5 laptop. When connecting the USB lead they make the connection noise and then make the disconnection noise repeatedly. I've re-installed the drivers etc but all to no avail?? It's really strange because I have no problems with my ZWO cameras? Both machines are running windows 10. 

I appreciate any help that you can give.

thanks Harvey

[Oddsocks]

Could be the Polemaster and Lodestar are pulling close to the USB power limits on the new laptop, if power limits are exceeded the USB port will shut down then restart continually as long as the device remains plugged in.

I had exactly the same problem with a Sony Vaio and a Lodestar V1 a few years ago. There is some variability between laptop motherboards as the USB port controllers all come from different manufacturers and this might explain why they work OK on your other PC's.

To test this theory you could try using an externally powered USB hub or extension cable betwen Polemaster / Lodestar since these take over the 5V supply to the camera and only load the laptop with the data lines which just require a few milliamps.

To solve the problem with my old Vaio laptop I fitted an extra plug in 4 port USB 2 PCMCIA card that had an external 5V 2A power input socket to supply the camera directly without loading the USB ports or laptop motherboard.

With my current observatory system I am running a desktop PC but with through mount cabling reaching 6.5 mtrs I have two dedicated Startech single port USB 5 mtr powered extension cables up to the mount and a further 1.5mtr extension up to the cameras, one cable only for Lodestar and the other only for the main camera, both these cables have a dedicated 5v 1a feed in to power the cameras up at the mount end, I find this prevents any drop out or random disconnects which the Lodestar in particular was prone to when running over unpowered USB cables.

[Barv]

Many thanks for all of this Oddsocks, I will look into this. ??. I would be a little surprised though as it's a high end gaming machine. I am sure you know more than I do though. Thanks once again.

[Oddsocks]

One simple test you can try is to boot the laptop in safe mode and then plug in the Lodestar, does it now connect ok?

In safe mode most of the Windows drivers and services are stopped so if the Lodestar still continually drops out and reconnects that would point to possible excessive power pull on the USB port, if the Lodestar connects ok in safe mode but not in normal mode then that indicates a possible driver clash and you would have to disable other running devices one by one until you found the culprit, built-in webcams and sound cards are usually good places to start looking!

[Woolnut]

As some of the other guys here have said, it could be a driver issue or a power distribution issue. I use one of these to charge my iPad/iPhone with along with a few other things and it works great! It has a combined power of 60W and can distribute up to 10W per port at max capacity Link Here > Anker PowerPort  (Amazon UK)

Some people say they have had problems with ports dying out, i have had my running for about a year now with no issues thankfully (so far...) It sounds strange that an Alienware PC would struggle with power distribution however there is also a lot of kit inside the machine that will eat up a lot of the output capacity of the PSU therefore leaving a small percentage for USB power!

A couple of troubleshooting steps that may help you out...

Start Windows in Safe Mode and see if issues occur, if not you will need to look at other drivers and services that are running in normal mode (such as webcams, external speakers, other USB devices malfunctioning and Skype sometimes can cause issues like this) and manually disable one by one until you find the problem maker. It could also be worth looking in your Power Options to make sure the Performance setting is on rather than balanced (if you are not bothered about battery usage).

Start Windows in Safe Mode and see if issues occur, if so then it sounds like you will either need to get yourself a powered USB hub and hook your gear up to it or if your PC has the ability and the PSU to handle it, get yourself a PCI-E USB card that you can install...

Let me know if any of this helps out or not  

 

(Sorry Oddsocks, i promise i didn't steal your troubleshooting ideas!)

 

 

 

[Barv]

Hi Guys and thanks again for your help. I am not very computer literate so please bare with me. I have started the pc in safe mode and plugged the camera in. - Nothing happens at all, there is no sound coming out like it is connecting or disconnecting (but I think this would be the case in safemode anyway)? I have opened up PHD and tried to connect the lodestar but it says problems connecting to the camera. I have opened up task manager and looked at idle performances. CPU is using 2%, memory 12% and the impact on starup programs is very low. Not really sure if this all helps you or not?

Harvey

[Alien 13]

Just a shot in the dark but my Alienware has a USB 3 powershare socket which might be more suitable for higher consumption devices, if not you could just try one of the other sockets.

Alan 

[Oddsocks]

Hi Harvey,

OK so some confusion here...

The physical USB port has a fixed limit of power it can supply to the connected device (camera etc) and has nothing to do with CPU performance, internal battery or mains supply etc.

The specification for a USB 2 socket is 500ma (0.5 Amp) maximum and the specification of a USB 3 socket is 900ma (0.9 Amp) maximum. If you attempt to plug in a device that tries to draw more than those limits then the port will shut down to protect the motherboard from damage.

When I had all the problems with my own Lodestar on the Vaio I had measured that upon plug in it tries to draw more than the 500ma max for a few moments and on some USB hardware ports this is enough to trigger a shut down of the port.

If your laptop has both USB 2 and USB 3 sockets (blue socket for USB 3 is common and white or black for USB 2) try moving the Lodestar to a blue, USB 3 socket.

Also, what is the length of the USB cable you are using? try a shorter cable.

I don't know Windows 10 that well but in Windows 7 and in safe mode the auto detection of USB devices is disabled, you have to plug in the device (Lodestar) then go to control panel and use the "Add Hardware" option to start the USB device detection and driver installation.

[Barv]

15 minutes ago, Oddsocks said:

Hi Harvey,

OK so some confusion here...

The physical USB port has a fixed limit of power it can supply to the connected device (camera etc) and has nothing to do with CPU performance, internal battery or mains supply etc.

The specification for a USB 2 socket is 500ma (0.5 Amp) maximum and the specification of a USB 3 socket is 900ma (0.9 Amp) maximum. If you attempt to plug in a device that tries to draw more than those limits then the port will shut down to protect the motherboard from damage.

When I had all the problems with my own Lodestar on the Vaio I had measured that upon plug in it tries to draw more than the 500ma max for a few moments and on some USB hardware ports this is enough to trigger a shut down of the port.

If your laptop has both USB 2 and USB 3 sockets (blue socket for USB 3 is common and white or black for USB 2) try moving the Lodestar to a blue, USB 3 socket.

Also, what is the length of the USB cable you are using? try a shorter cable.

Hello again. 

I have tried all USB ports. The strange thing is that both the lodestar and the polemaster are only USB 2 I believe and they won't even work on a USB 3 port?

 

[Oddsocks]

USB 2 devices work on USB 3 ports, the USB port detects whether it is a USB 2 or USB 3 device plugged in and adjusts itself accordingly.

The only exception is the reverse condition, most USB 3 devices will not work when plugged into a USB 2 port.

[Oddsocks]

26 minutes ago, Oddsocks said:

I don't know Windows 10 that well but in Windows 7 and in safe mode the auto detection of USB devices is disabled, you have to plug in the device (Lodestar) then go to control panel and use the "Add Hardware" option to start the USB device detection and driver installation.

You might have missed this since I edited the post after you read it first time.

[Barv]

2 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

Just a shot in the dark but my Alienware has a USB 3 powershare socket which might be more suitable for higher consumption devices, if not you could just try one of the other sockets.

Alan 

An update for you all. I have now purchased an independently powered usb hub. On connecting it to the PC the same problem occurs so I don't think it is power related? 

 

[Oddsocks]

 

3 hours ago, Barv said:

I have now purchased an independently powered usb hub. On connecting it to the PC the same problem occurs

Harvey.

Can you clarify the last post, are you saying the same problem occurs just when you plug in the powered hub and nothing else?

If this is the case then there is something else running on the system that has caused a problem with the USB ports.

Have you run Windows update to check and see if all the system drivers are up to date?

Were you able to boot into safe mode, plug in the lodestar and begin the manual hardware detection from control panel?

[Barv]

1 hour ago, Oddsocks said:

 

Harvey.

Can you clarify the last post, are you saying the same problem occurs just when you plug in the powered hub and nothing else?

If this is the case then there is something else running on the system that has caused a problem with the USB ports.

Have you run Windows update to check and see if all the system drivers are up to date?

Were you able to boot into safe mode, plug in the lodestar and begin the manual hardware detection from control panel?

Yes that's exactly what's happening. All drivers and the bios are up to date.  I managed to get into safe mode but I couldn't work out how to do the manual hardware detection, I think it's different to windows 7? Thanks Oddsocks

[Oddsocks]

I am rather limited to help on Windows 10, I only have a virtual copy running on a Mac and USB functions are not ported through unless the device also exists on the Mac and I have no Mac compatible Lodestar drivers... anyway....

In the virtual Windows 10 that I have, after booting in to safe mode, open the device manager window in settings, click on the first item at the top of the tree to highlight it ( system name ) plug in the Lodestar and from the top tool bar in the device manager window click the "Action" tab and click "Scan For Changes" watch the device manager list and the pop-up windows to see if the Lodestar is found, if this fails then go back to the "Action" tab and click on "Add Legacy Hardware" Click "Next" and then allow automatic detection.

If the Lodestar is detected ok in safe mode and still a problem in normal mode then you will have to go into device manger when in normal mode and try disabling built-in USB devices one at time and replug the Lodestar in after each attempt until you find the USB device that is causing the clash but be careful not to disable the built in keyboard or mouse which are USB devices.

The most common compatibility problems are caused by built in cameras, eye detectors, touch screens, fingerprint readers etc.

Have you installed any other USB devices or software before trying the Lodestar that might have caused the issue?

I have been reading on other astro forums the last few weeks that the latest DELL laptops are having problems with USB devices but that is only a small sample so don't know how widespread the issue is, maybe just coincidence.

If you are not computer savvy and are stuck you could just try reinstalling the default DELL software and beginning again, there is usually a built in recovery sector for DELLS that will restore the computer to how it was when you opened the laptop first time.

William.

 

[Thalestris24]

Hi

You might need to go into device manager and look at the properties of the individual devices and check their power management settings are set to not allow the computer to turn the devices off. Also, I don't think it's guaranteed that usb 2 devices will work in usb 3 ports - I've had problems before when a qhy5l-ii wouldn't work in a usb 3. I think that might be to do with that the qhy needs to upload software before it will work. Another problem can be caused by the usb connector being physically loose at the laptop end. That can be worked around with a suitable small piece of card to wedge the cable connector tight.

Hth

Louise

[Barv]

7 hours ago, Oddsocks said:

I am rather limited to help on Windows 10, I only have a virtual copy running on a Mac and USB functions are not ported through unless the device also exists on the Mac and I have no Mac compatible Lodestar drivers... anyway....

In the virtual Windows 10 that I have, after booting in to safe mode, open the device manager window in settings, click on the first item at the top of the tree to highlight it ( system name ) plug in the Lodestar and from the top tool bar in the device manager window click the "Action" tab and click "Scan For Changes" watch the device manager list and the pop-up windows to see if the Lodestar is found, if this fails then go back to the "Action" tab and click on "Add Legacy Hardware" Click "Next" and then allow automatic detection.

If the Lodestar is detected ok in safe mode and still a problem in normal mode then you will have to go into device manger when in normal mode and try disabling built-in USB devices one at time and replug the Lodestar in after each attempt until you find the USB device that is causing the clash but be careful not to disable the built in keyboard or mouse which are USB devices.

The most common compatibility problems are caused by built in cameras, eye detectors, touch screens, fingerprint readers etc.

Have you installed any other USB devices or software before trying the Lodestar that might have caused the issue?

I have been reading on other astro forums the last few weeks that the latest DELL laptops are having problems with USB devices but that is only a small sample so don't know how widespread the issue is, maybe just coincidence.

If you are not computer savvy and are stuck you could just try reinstalling the default DELL software and beginning again, there is usually a built in recovery sector for DELLS that will restore the computer to how it was when you opened the laptop first time.

William.

 

OK, thanks very much for all of this William.

I have got into device manager in safemode. Nothing is picked up in the 'scan for hardware changes' at all, so I went into 'Add Legacy Hardware' and the Lodestar was not detected. I do have the disk that came with the Lodestar but I have just noticed that this only compatible with Windows vista 32 and 64 bit so I can't install from the disk. I have already updated the drivers as per the starlight express website. 

I should point out that the machine is just under 2 years old and originally came with windows 8. I have tried to go back to this but have been on 10 for too long. I am beginning to think that Louise is probably right and that usb 2 devices just aren't compatible with this machine which is frankly rediculous. What makes me think this is because the Belkin Hub that I just purchased was being rejected without even plugging anything in to it. Oh dear!

Harvey

 

[Barv]

6 hours ago, Thalestris24 said:

Hi

You might need to go into device manager and look at the properties of the individual devices and check their power management settings are set to not allow the computer to turn the devices off. Also, I don't think it's guaranteed that usb 2 devices will work in usb 3 ports - I've had problems before when a qhy5l-ii wouldn't work in a usb 3. I think that might be to do with that the qhy needs to upload software before it will work. Another problem can be caused by the usb connector being physically loose at the laptop end. That can be worked around with a suitable small piece of card to wedge the cable connector tight.

Hth

Louise

 

Thanks Louise I think you've hit the nail on the head, - I don't think usb2 devices work in my usb3 ports! The connections are fine though as my ZWO cameras work in the ports.

Regards

Harvey

[Oddsocks]

6 minutes ago, Barv said:

I don't think usb2 devices work in my usb3 ports!

 

11 minutes ago, Barv said:

I am beginning to think that Louise is probably right and that usb 2 devices just aren't compatible with this machine which is frankly rediculous

These days the USB 3 v USB 2 incompatibility issues are mostly resolved, I thought you were working with a brand new laptop, when USB 3 first appeared a few years back there were lots of hardware compatibility problems with the USB 3 port hardware available at that time.

I installed a brand new desktop PC earlier this year in my observatory and that is all USB 3 ports. I have Lodestar, QSI camera, mount, weather station, remote power and observatory cam, all USB 2 devices, working without issue and a single ZWO USB 3 camera working just fine with Windows 7.

Without encouraging you to spend any more money on the problem does your laptop have an Express Card extender slot fitted, if so you could try a USB 2 plug in Express Card, this is what I used on my Sony VAIO laptop. The USB Express Cards can work host powered or independently powered so you can run them fully off the laptop internal power in the field if you don't need independent power supply for the devices.

If you do have an expansion slot then take the laptop to Maplin with the Lodestar and ask to try one of their USB 2 Express cards, they still do a combined two port FireWire and single port USB 2 express card for around £20 and may still have some of four port USB 2 cards still in stock but they seem to disappearing pretty quickly these days. Maplin are usually pretty helpful in store and will let you try one at the help desk, PC World and Currys etc are usually not interested I find.

Otherwise an online supplier like Novatech can still supply USB 2 express cards with two or four ports.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/firewire-2-ports-usb-20-1-port-express-cardbus-connection-card-a59hh

https://www.novatech.co.uk/products/components/controllercards/usbcontrollers/ec230usb.html

William.

[Barv]

26 minutes ago, Oddsocks said:

 

These days the USB 3 v USB 2 incompatibility issues are mostly resolved, I thought you were working with a brand new laptop, when USB 3 first appeared a few years back there were lots of hardware compatibility problems with the USB 3 port hardware available at that time.

I installed a brand new desktop PC earlier this year in my observatory and that is all USB 3 ports. I have Lodestar, QSI camera, mount, weather station, remote power and observatory cam, all USB 2 devices, working without issue and a single ZWO USB 3 camera working just fine with Windows 7.

Without encouraging you to spend any more money on the problem does your laptop have an Express Card extender slot fitted, if so you could try a USB 2 plug in Express Card, this is what I used on my Sony VAIO laptop. The USB Express Cards can work host powered or independently powered so you can run them fully off the laptop internal power in the field if you don't need independent power supply for the devices.

If you do have an expansion slot then take the laptop to Maplin with the Lodestar and ask to try one of their USB 2 Express cards, they still do a combined two port FireWire and single port USB 2 express card for around £20 and may still have some of four port USB 2 cards still in stock but they seem to disappearing pretty quickly these days. Maplin are usually pretty helpful in store and will let you try one at the help desk, PC World and Currys etc are usually not interested I find.

Otherwise an online supplier like Novatech can still supply USB 2 express cards with two or four ports.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/firewire-2-ports-usb-20-1-port-express-cardbus-connection-card-a59hh

https://www.novatech.co.uk/products/components/controllercards/usbcontrollers/ec230usb.html

William.

Yes this would be easy but I don't think there is a firewire port on the pc. From what I can see there are 4 usb3 ports, an HDMI port, an ethernet port and an MMC.50.MS/PRO port. I wonder if I can get a HDMI-USB2 adaptor?

 

[Oddsocks]

1 hour ago, Barv said:

this would be easy but I don't think there is a firewire port on the pc. From what I can see there are 4 usb3 ports, an HDMI port, an ethernet port and an MMC.50.MS/PRO port. I wonder if I can get a HDMI-USB2 adaptor?

The Express Card I linked to adds a pair of Firewire ports as well as a USB 2 port, it doesn't need a Firewire Port. A HDMI to USB adapter only works to connect a display device to a USB port, it doesn't work the other way round.

What is the model number of your laptop, it should be found on a label underneath somewhere?

One other thought I had, Windows 10 has an uncontrollable urge to update your chipset drivers without permission, even if the manufacturers drivers worked better, you could try visiting the DELL/ALIENWARE support site, download the latest chipset drivers for your laptop, then, turn off wireless, or disconnect the LAN cable so Windows can not update the drivers, install the DELL chipset drivers, reboot the laptop, make sure wireless is still turned off and try the Lodestar or your new hub again, if it then works you can disable automatic driver updates for the laptop chipsets.

See this page for how do do that:

http://www.howtogeek.com/223864/how-to-uninstall-and-block-updates-and-drivers-on-windows-10/

[Barv]

6 minutes ago, Oddsocks said:

The Express Card I linked to adds a pair of Firewire ports as well as a USB 2 port, it doesn't need a Firewire Port. A HDMI to USB adapter only works to connect a display device to a USB port, it doesn't work the other way round.

What is the model number of your laptop, it should be found on a label underneath somewhere?

One other thought I had, Windows 10 has an uncontrollable urge to update your chipset drivers without permission, even if the manufacturers drivers worked better, you could try visiting the DELL/ALIENWARE support site, download the latest chipset drivers for your laptop, then, turn off wireless, or disconnect the LAN cable so Windows can not update the drivers, install the DELL chipset drivers, reboot the laptop, make sure wireless is still turned off and try the Lodestar or your new hub again, if it then works you can disable automatic driver updates for the laptop chipsets.

See this page for how do do that:

http://www.howtogeek.com/223864/how-to-uninstall-and-block-updates-and-drivers-on-windows-10/

 

Thanks again William.

I think the Model is a M17X

Service tag no is FJ2PP12 M17x

I'm not sure where on my machine I would plug those items in? Am I missing something? Please enlighten me.

I have now spoken to Dell support and they pretty much confirm that it is software related. I did manage to try out a usb 2 (I think) memory stick and that worked after formatting. They suggested that I backed up my files and restored the computer to factory settings which I am now doing. This should bring me back to Windows 8. They also suggested that I re-installed the camera drivers before adding them. I will try that too. I'll keep you posted on progress of course.

Kind regards

Harvey

[Oddsocks]

Sounds like a good plan Harvey.

Once you are back with Windows 8 then you won't be able to update to Windows 10 again for free as the upgrade offer has expired but I wouldn't recommend the home version of Windows 10 for Astro work anyway.

Windows 8.1 should work well for most astro apps and hardware, Windows 8.0 had a few issues if I remember right.

Looking on the DELL support site they state Windows 10 is not tested or supported for the 2014 model M17X.

The Express Card slot had been removed on your model of laptop by 2015, though it still appears in the service manual for the M17X and the specification document published on the DELL website so it is not clear where in the production run it was taken out, it used to be on the right hand side of the laptop just a few centimetres back from the front, right hand edge. That seems to be the standard for most laptops now, no possibility to extend other than via USB.

Hopefully you will be up and running again by the end of the day.

William.

 

 

[Barv]

14 minutes ago, Oddsocks said:

Sounds like a good plan Harvey.

Once you are back with Windows 8 then you won't be able to update to Windows 10 again for free as the upgrade offer has expired but I wouldn't recommend the home version of Windows 10 for Astro work anyway.

Windows 8.1 should work well for most astro apps and hardware, Windows 8.0 had a few issues if I remember right.

Looking on the DELL support site they state Windows 10 is not tested or supported for the 2014 model M17X.

The Express Card slot had been removed on your model of laptop by 2015, though it still appears in the service manual for the M17X and the specification document published on the DELL website so it is not clear where in the production run it was taken out, it used to be on the right hand side of the laptop just a few centimetres back from the front, right hand edge. That seems to be the standard for most laptops now, no possibility to extend other than via USB.

Hopefully you will be up and running again by the end of the day.

William.

 

 

Hopefully William yes, although I am unsure weather or not to update the drivers as soon as I boot up or not before downloading the lodester/polemaster software? What do you think?

Regards

Harvey

[Oddsocks]

If it boots up after restore as Windows 8 then do the Windows updates to Win 8.1 first and all the other pending Windows updates.

Once that is done, and it will take a few hours, begin installing the hardware a piece at a time and check after each new item is added that the previous items still work ok.

When all the hardware is in then start adding stuff like planetarium software, image capture software, mount control software and so on.

Once finished and everything is working then as soon as possible download a free back-up and restore software package like Paragon, linked below, and make a full "ghost" system restore to an external hard drive, then if you run into any future problems you can quickly restore to a working system with all your apps and drivers working. I have used Paragon for many years in preference to the built-in Windows backup as I found Windows back-up and restore a bit flakey, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, which is not much good for something you rely on.

https://www.paragon-software.com/home/br-free/