Info required on starting out with digital imaging

[Des101]

I'm looking to get into the imaging side of things, yet trying to find useful information on this is proving somewhat troublesome. Obviously I don't want to spend thousands on something that I'm just starting out on, but I'm a smart chap and enjoy finding solutions to things people say can't be done!

So here's the quandary I'm currently faced with:

I would like to feed the image from a scope direct to my PC and view the results there (enabling me to manipulate the image in real time) yet the digital eye pieces I'm currently finding all seem very sub standard in terms of ppi and maximum resolution. Also the pricing is somewhat "laughable" for resolutions which were considered amazing 10 years ago! I'm also clued up to photons so have been investigating this side in regards to what device is best suited to my needs.

So I'm wondering what would be my best option?

Buying a webcam & stripping and mounting that to the eye-piece?

Using a latest smart phone and using its camera attached to the eye-piece?

Grudgingly fork out for a ready made digital eye-piece?

I'll assume lots of you have already tried the various methods I'm thinking of - which in your opinion do you think would achieve the better results?

Apologies if this question has already been answered & thanks in advance for any feedback & advice.

[Des101]

It will mainly be planetary imaging I'll be concentrating on to begin with. Sorry - should have put that bit in with the original post!

[laser_jock99]

I don't what you mean by 'manipulating in real time'- you can only do editing work on saved images AFAIK?

A sensitive, purpose made astro camera will help- what kind of imaging are you intending doing, DSO, planetary, solar, live video?

EDIT - planetary I see now!

In that case there a number of high frame cameras that are worth looking at.

[Thewitty]

Hi Des,

I am also just starting out with imaging.

I purchased an Xbox web cam( £5) and modified using an adapter(£15 I think), both from Ebay .  Results = Works OK for a £5 cam and to get me started.

I have also modified a phone case so I can use my IPhone over an EP. Results = Good for Moon stills, not tried for planetary imaging. Downfall for IPhone is having to convert file types to work with Registax.

I myself would only buy a digital EP if I could see the possible results before hand.

At the end of the day I would think that the Scope that you want to use them on will dictate the results you get as much as the camera you use.

Regards

Brian

[ronin]

Planetary is generally done with a webcam, and a scope+mount that tracks.

In a simple one line:

Scope, diagonal, barlow, webcam, take movie of planet, process .avi file.

See easy. :grin: :grin:

Concerning the webcam, you get one and dismantle it to remove the lens, then reassemble it with the IR filter back in. You image direct onto the sensor.

Slight hiccup to the great plan is Jupiter has just about disappeared, Mars is a pain in the rear to view or image (VERY VERY small), that leaves Saturn that is still small but a bit better the Mars.

That is the planets. You can go image the moon.

Planetarty imaging can be done on an Alt/Az but for a progression into DSO you are looking at a driven equitorial mount.

Planetary imaging is often done with an SCT, but an SCT is not good for DSO's = decision time.

DSO imaging is often a nice solid mount and a small scope. I suggest avoiding the idea of a nice big visual scope on an adaquate mount. The priorities are reversed.

Almost standard advice is visit a club that has people who image in it and go look and talk to them. Seeing what is used and why is worth 2 months of asking questions here. If you find a club then find an imager that is honest, some of the answers may not necessarily be what you want to hear.

One big question is what do you mean by "imaging" ?

[Des101]

Here's what I'm planning on doing:

The idea is to stream the image from the scope direct to the pc. It'll then be ran through software to stabilise the video feed to remove the noticeable artifacting (or blurring) that occurs due to the atmosphere. 

Once the stream is set to best viewing quality, it will then be recorded & the saved video file will then be manipulated to obtain the final image. Though I will probably do a "montage" of the best video feeds as well. I should also point out that I'm looking at the fps the device is able to handle as well. >60 is preferable.

I'm fully aware that whatever I capture will not look as good as if I spent big bucks on specialist equipment. This is something I'm prepared to live with until I find I can no longer achieve what I want to on a shoe string budget! I'm also looking at the highest possible capture resolution as more ppi allows for better manipulation (though need to balance this with the amount of light the device can actually capture) when reducing the overall end image size.

Again, as a complete novice at doing this, I want to keep to costs to a bare minimum until I'm fully comfortable with what I'm doing and then decide if I truly want to try my hand at DSO's

Dave

[Mr TamiyaCowboy]

realtime streaming , yes 

realtime image manupitalion and shunting, your going to struggle, you would need a good amount of horsepower at the fingers.

your capturing at 30/60fps so USb3 will be required to help keep buffering low, huge ram amounts and massive hard disks. 

we can capture data in the gb /tbs range not mb's

, streaming is possible, if you use something like a CCTV day/night 0.001 lux camera baseboard 

a small 12v powered 100mw 2.4ghz-5.1ghz sender/receiver ( we use them in model hobby as FPV live feed )

a capture card for the PC and your away, just need a battery to power the TX/RX ends ( mount provides/uses a 12v source)

and a cheapy car battery can power the receiver unit and even a secondary monitor.

start simple, a cheap'ish webcam, get the basics down, maybe venter to a second hand DSLR

and work your way up the ladder.

[Leveye]

APT has a sharpening effect built in so you could do that in real time as you're viewing the planets. Just a thought.

[Leveye]

Check out Astromart for some deals on used gear. You'll save bigtime. Get a used 8-10" Newtonian or SCT 8" at the very least. You want 2000mm to start with.

[Des101]

realtime streaming , yes 

realtime image manupitalion and shunting, your going to struggle, you would need a good amount of horsepower at the fingers.

your capturing at 30/60fps so USb3 will be required to help keep buffering low, huge ram amounts and massive hard disks. 

we can capture data in the gb /tbs range not mb's

, streaming is possible, if you use something like a CCTV day/night 0.001 lux camera baseboard 

a small 12v powered 100mw 2.4ghz-5.1ghz sender/receiver ( we use them in model hobby as FPV live feed )

a capture card for the PC and your away, just need a battery to power the TX/RX ends ( mount provides/uses a 12v source)

and a cheapy car battery can power the receiver unit and even a secondary monitor.

start simple, a cheap'ish webcam, get the basics down, maybe venter to a second hand DSLR

and work your way up the ladder.

I have a few options with the capturing method:

1. Hook up either the webcam or phone (opted for one of those for the time being as I already have both) to my laptop when outside to begin with. Record some standard video with it and then transfer in to the main PC to manipulate the video file.

2. Get some long USB extension cable (luckily I have some 30m lengths already!) and run the feed direct to the main PC from the webcam (or phone camera) to enable realtime manipulation.

3. Send the phone camera signal direct via wi-fi to the router and then to the PC

4. Do as you suggest and get a small sender/receiver for the webcam 

The PC is powerful enough to allow me to play about with the video feed in realtime so all options are do-able. Most of the playing about though will be to correct the video & clean it up as best as possible before I begin saving the footage to a file.

All this does is reduce the amount of additional manipulation needed for creating the final image.

I know I will need to create a few saved presets depending on what I'm trying to capture which is where I find this a useful method. Takes a while to initially set up but reduced the end time quite substantially. 

It just depends on which will be the least hassle and simplest to setup.

I am curious as to what would give the better image quality though as I start on this little journey of discovery - Phone camera or webcam?

It's an old webcam so maximum capture resolution is only 640x480! On the plus side, it does perform quite well in low light and it'll be stripped so the light from the scope will go direct to the sensor.

The phone has a maximum capture resolution of 1920x1080 yet stripping it down to the sensor is obviously a no go so the light will have to pass through the glass lens first before hitting the sensor! It's also going to be a lot more weight on the EP which could cause problems.

I will however try both ways and more input & discussion is always welcome as there will be problems along the way (when does anything ever go smooth the first time?  )

Again, lots for me to think about & I appreciate everyones input into this.. Fingers crossed, I will have some nice images and videos to post in the future

Dave

[brantuk]

Look up "Minitron" and "Watec" cameras for the ideal solution. It seems that these will do what you are intending. 

[lensman57]

I'm looking to get into the imaging side of things, yet trying to find useful information on this is proving somewhat troublesome. Obviously I don't want to spend thousands on something that I'm just starting out on, but I'm a smart chap and enjoy finding solutions to things people say can't be done!

So here's the quandary I'm currently faced with:

I would like to feed the image from a scope direct to my PC and view the results there (enabling me to manipulate the image in real time) yet the digital eye pieces I'm currently finding all seem very sub standard in terms of ppi and maximum resolution. Also the pricing is somewhat "laughable" for resolutions which were considered amazing 10 years ago! I'm also clued up to photons so have been investigating this side in regards to what device is best suited to my needs.

So I'm wondering what would be my best option?

Buying a webcam & stripping and mounting that to the eye-piece?

Using a latest smart phone and using its camera attached to the eye-piece?

Grudgingly fork out for a ready made digital eye-piece?

I'll assume lots of you have already tried the various methods I'm thinking of - which in your opinion do you think would achieve the better results?

Apologies if this question has already been answered & thanks in advance for any feedback & advice.

Hi,

Just to put things into perspective, I  post a simple capture of M51 from 2013. I started imaging in April 2013. The data was collected using a second hand SW 80ED,  a mooded Canon 1000d and an EQ5 SynScan over two sessions on the 23rd and 25th of May last year. There were a total of 35 subs of 300s each stacked with calibration frames or to put it simply each session took nearly 5 hours of aligning and data collecting. I only managed to combine the two data sets ( to any degree of competence ) only a couple of weeks ago and it took me a couple of nights of solid work and more.  last year my processing skills were to say the least rudimentay and I am still at the toe of the learning curve. If you are after imaging DSOs then I am afraid you are mistaken thinking that you'd be sitting by the computer and photoshoping the data as it is downloaded onto your hard disc, we are  talking AP here and  not daytime idiot proof photography. You should read all the posts in the "imaging Deep Sky"  and "imaging planetary " sections of the forum paying full attention to the capture and processing details and then decide if this hobby is for you. I am sorry if I am sounding harsh but you better be ready for what you are getting yourself into before spending a huge amount of money on astro gear. The good folks that do planetary probably have the same experience and will probably tell the same story.

Regards,

A.G

[Des101]

Thanks for the heads up A.G. I'm in no doubt as to the amount of time that will be required to get any half decent image and which is why I'm also looking at keeping it relatively cheap & inexpensive to begin with. As you said, it may well be something I hate and the last thing I want to do is blow hundreds of pounds on something that I will not keep at!

The moon will be my starting point (pretty hard to miss something that big in the night sky though I do have a habit of surprising even myself!) and will use that to hone some skills. If (and when) I get comfortable shooting images of that, I'll move on to the planets when they appear. DSO's though - I'm under no illusion that I won't be trying to AP any of those in the foreseeable future.

The other reason I'm also looking into digital EP's is this also allows me to view what's through the scope indoors. This is more so during the winter and gives me more time during the warmer nights to be able to get it all set up and calibrated for later in the year. AP just seems a natural progression into this and has always held my fascination at how so many wonderful images are produced by the amateur community. To pass up a chance to give it a try is just too much of an opportunity to miss.

Will say that's a stunning image though  - and something I know I wont be able to reproduce for a very long time (if I ever get that far into it!) I shall take a look at the forums you suggested and have a good read up.

Dave

[Thalestris24]

Hi

I don't think you've mentioned what scope/mount you have? I get the impression you are wanting to do some sort of "remote viewing"? Do bear in mind there are limits to cable lengths, data rates etc.

I'm not sure what it is you're wanting to achieve with trying to process streaming images in real time? There is software available for handling web cam data acquisition and it's normal to record a .avi then process it to (eventually) get a final image but I believe this involves a number of steps. I suppose, in principle you could do some batch processing but I suspect it wouldn't be straightforward. Viewing raw data isn't a problem but I think you'd be limited to the moon really. Of course, you can't really do anything much without a tracking mount, at least.

Louise

[lensman57]

Thanks for the heads up A.G. I'm in no doubt as to the amount of time that will be required to get any half decent image and which is why I'm also looking at keeping it relatively cheap & inexpensive to begin with. As you said, it may well be something I hate and the last thing I want to do is blow hundreds of pounds on something that I will not keep at!

The moon will be my starting point (pretty hard to miss something that big in the night sky though I do have a habit of surprising even myself!) and will use that to hone some skills. If (and when) I get comfortable shooting images of that, I'll move on to the planets when they appear. DSO's though - I'm under no illusion that I won't be trying to AP any of those in the foreseeable future.

The other reason I'm also looking into digital EP's is this also allows me to view what's through the scope indoors. This is more so during the winter and gives me more time during the warmer nights to be able to get it all set up and calibrated for later in the year. AP just seems a natural progression into this and has always held my fascination at how so many wonderful images are produced by the amateur community. To pass up a chance to give it a try is just too much of an opportunity to miss.

Will say that's a stunning image though  - and something I know I wont be able to reproduce for a very long time (if I ever get that far into it!) I shall take a look at the forums you suggested and have a good read up.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I am really glad that you  are going to do some research and reading on the subject before splashing out, believe you me once you get started there is no end to spending money. I was not trying to put you off just to make you aware that AP is very different to terrestrial photography, I should know that, I did it for over twenty years. The Moon is beautiful , very often present and does not require a lot of specialised equipment to image it. A DSLR and a long lens is all you need and a tripod ofcourse. . If you want to do it with a scope then that is different ball game but still reasonably cheap to get going and as far as planetary imaging concerned most of the software is free. There are a lot of good folks here thaI  I am sure will help you get started once you decide what it is you wish to image and how.

Reagrds,

A.G

[DoctorD]

Hi Des

Have a look at the video astronomy section it's under Science-> Video Astronomy. You can use low light security cameras to view real time images on a monitor or PC.

Limited to PAL resolutions - 720x576 but you can get 10 to 20 second integrations which will show many of the brighter DSOs.

HTH

Paul

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Hi Des

Have a look at the video astronomy section it's under Science-> Video Astronomy. You can use low light security cameras to view real time images on a monitor or PC.

Limited to PAL resolutions - 720x576 but you can get 10 to 20 second integrations which will show many of the brighter DSOs.

HTH

Paul

Just wanted to point to that as well.

Also might want to check here:

http://www.nightskiesnetwork.com/