modded dslr or not?

[Thalestris24]

Wow Louise, what difficult imaging circumstances you have to work in.  Hats off to you.  As you quite rightly summise a cooled CCD camera would be very beneficial to you. Mono is the best as it gives more detail, but since you have so little time to capture it would take you forever to acquire an image.

Perhaps as you say a cooled DSLR is what you need, or a OSC CCD camera.

Carole 

Aww thanks Carole Well, I've chosen to do the AP, knowing the restrictions I have. But, at the end of the day, it's just a 'retirement hobby'. Yeah, I'm tempted by the mono detail but, there again, who will ever see that extra detail even assuming I can capture it successfully? I think I just get the satisfaction of producing an image of something very distant through my own efforts. Yes - one or other of the cameras would do! A qhy8l might be a compromise but then almost the cost of a cooled 1100d and I'm used to using my unmodded one so would be an easy transition. I dunno...

Louise

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Aww thanks Carole Well, I've chosen to do the AP, knowing the restrictions I have. But, at the end of the day, it's just a 'retirement hobby'. Yeah, I'm tempted by the mono detail but, there again, who will ever see that extra detail even assuming I can capture it successfully? I think I just get the satisfaction of producing an image of something very distant through my own efforts. Yes - one or other of the cameras would do! A qhy8l might be a compromise but then almost the cost of a cooled 1100d and I'm used to using my unmodded one so would be an easy transition. I dunno...

Louise

The QHY8L will blow the 1100D out of the water. Even a cooled one. No contest.

The QE and sensitivity in red (Ha) is much higher than a DSLR like 1100D.

Astronomyshed also has youtube videos about processing with the QHY8L and Nebulosity I believe. Worth to check out next to his review videos about the QHY8L.

EDIT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw8i5DMZ4SQ  review part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo5VbLPQHxE review part 2

[Thalestris24]

The QHY8L will blow the 1100D out of the water. Even a cooled one. No contest.

The QE and sensitivity in red (Ha) is much higher than a DSLR like 1100D.

Astronomyshed also has youtube videos about processing with the QHY8L and Nebulosity I believe. Worth to check out next to his review videos about the QHY8L.

Yeah I've seen the youtube vid. I've obviously seen other qhy8l examples too. Not sure if it has anything like liveview? I've got used to using APT too...

Anyway, mulling over the options.

Louise

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Yeah I've seen the youtube vid. I've obviously seen other qhy8l examples too. Not sure if it has anything like liveview? I've got used to using APT too...

Anyway, mulling over the options.

Louise

With the OSC CCD you basically take short exposures in a loop to mimic live view.

When it comes to APT. According to their feature page they support all ASCOM compatible cameras, which included QHYCCD.

http://www.ideiki.com/astro/Features.aspx

Thomas Fowler posted an improved user manual for the QHY8L in pdf format on the QHY forums, With help support for various programs, uncluding APT!

http://qhyccd.com/ccdbbs/index.php?topic=4275.0

[Thalestris24]

With the OSC CCD you basically take short exposures in a loop to mimic live view.

When it comes to APT. According to their feature page they support all ASCOM compatible cameras, which included QHYCCD.

http://www.ideiki.com/astro/Features.aspx

Thomas Fowler posted an improved user manual for the QHY8L in pdf format on the QHY forums, With help support for various programs, uncluding APT!

http://qhyccd.com/ccdbbs/index.php?topic=4275.0

Ok, thanks. I'd still like to see some users' results from a JTW Ultimate 1100d (http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/197124-jtw-ultimate-deep-cooled-canon-1100d-v3/) - just to compare

Louise

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Ok, thanks. I'd still like to see some users' results from a JTW Ultimate 1100d (http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/197124-jtw-ultimate-deep-cooled-canon-1100d-v3/) - just to compare

Louise

I have seen JTW's website and it's impressive of what they have achieved. The debayed DSLRs are very interesting. But the process involved to remove that bayer layer worries me a little about the longetivity of the sensor. So I have a hands off approach until I have seen People using it for more than a year. See the results and if any problems pop up over a longer period of time.

There are People here on this forum who have debayered DSLR sensors themselves and some of the images I have seen with it are incredibly impressive and very promissing for the future, when it comes to CMOS Technology.

I can only hope to see a native monochrome APS size Canon sensor in the body of for example a QHY8L at even more affordable prices.

That would really break open the market of cooled deepsky imaging cameras.

When it comes to the cooled 1100D. It means noise will be less of an issue, like with a Cooled CCD.

But the 1100D will still be the 1100D with average 35% peak QE compared to the 60% peak QE of the QHY8L.

What this means is, that you can get good results with the QHY8L at much shorter exposure times compared to a full spektrum modded cooled Canon 1100D (which is by the way more expensive than the QHY8L).

That's why I came up with the QHY8L as possible candidate for you, as you are imaging from a window with very short imaging timeframe oportunities. So you will get more out of a QHY8L than a 1100D in those short time intervals.

This is a single 15 minute exposure, with no dark, no flats used:

http://www.astrobin.com/full/29837/0/

I will start eating my socks if an 1100D can produce that with just a single 15 minute exposure.  

PS. This is an image taken with 5 min exposures, stacked 32 frames at a similar focal length as your 150PDS:

http://www.astrobin.com/full/66277/B/  (tho I don't like the artificial diffraction spikes)

[Thalestris24]

I have seen JTW's website and it's impressive of what they have achieved. The debayed DSLRs are very interesting. But the process involved to remove that bayer layer worries me a little about the longetivity of the sensor. So I have a hands off approach until I have seen People using it for more than a year. See the results and if any problems pop up over a longer period of time.

There are People here on this forum who have debayered DSLR sensors themselves and some of the images I have seen with it are incredibly impressive and very promissing for the future, when it comes to CMOS Technology.

I can only hope to see a native monochrome APS size Canon sensor in the body of for example a QHY8L at even more affordable prices.

That would really break open the market of cooled deepsky imaging cameras.

When it comes to the cooled 1100D. It means noise will be less of an issue, like with a Cooled CCD.

But the 1100D will still be the 1100D with average 35% peak QE compared to the 60% peak QE of the QHY8L.

What this means is, that you can get good results with the QHY8L at much shorter exposure times compared to a full spektrum modded cooled Canon 1100D (which is by the way more expensive than the QHY8L).

That's why I came up with the QHY8L as possible candidate for you, as you are imaging from a window with very short imaging timeframe oportunities. So you will get more out of a QHY8L than a 1100D in those short time intervals.

This is a single 15 minute exposure, with no dark, no flats used:

http://www.astrobin.com/full/29837/0/

I will start eating my socks if an 1100D can produce that with just a single 15 minute exposure.

Hi again

I agree - I think I'd go for the colour one rather than the debayered one but would like to see plenty of users examples/reviews. It's a new company so don't know how good they are really - plenty of hype on their web site and facebook page. I think they give a year's warranty, fwiw. Also, Canon have stopped doing the 1100d now although I'm sure there are still lots about. It's the 18mp 1200d now or the 600d is an option. I'm certainly tempted by the qhy8l... But O for a dark site!

Louise

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Hi again

I agree - I think I'd go for the colour one rather than the debayered one but would like to see plenty of users examples/reviews. It's a new company so don't know how good they are really - plenty of hype on their web site and facebook page. I think they give a year's warranty, fwiw. Also, Canon have stopped doing the 1100d now although I'm sure there are still lots about. It's the 18mp 1200d now or the 600d is an option. I'm certainly tempted by the qhy8l... But O for a dark site!

Louise

The 600D is a very nice camera. Will definitely produce less noice than an 1100D. Has a sligthly higher peak QE (40%) and larger ISO range.

You can get a full spektrum (or Baader filter) modified 600D at a very nice price on cheapastronomy.com . But ofcourse it's not cooled.

And as JTW is already charging 1400 euro for a deep cooled 1100D (just checked. Seems price has gone up). I don't want to know what they will charge for a deep cooled 600D. Most likely in the range of 1700 euro.

As comparison. The QHY8L is 1000 euro (899,- pounds at modernastronomy).

Ofcourse you have to make your own decisions on what you decide.

I myself just cannot justify 1400 euro for a cooled 1100D and even more for a cooled 600D, when I can buy a cooled APS size OSC CCD, with much higher QE for far less money.

PS. What we also don't know yet (as it's all fairly New) is possible dew (and potential ice forming) issues with deep cooling these extreme modded DSLR cameras and how they tend to prevent it. As many well known CCD manufacturers (including QHY) have gone through these so called "child disease" / enginering hick up phases before.

[Russe]

I have seen JTW's website and it's impressive of what they have achieved. The debayed DSLRs are very interesting. But the process involved to remove that bayer layer worries me a little about the longetivity of the sensor. So I have a hands off approach until I have seen People using it for more than a year. See the results and if any problems pop up over a longer period of time.

There are People here on this forum who have debayered DSLR sensors themselves and some of the images I have seen with it are incredibly impressive and very promissing for the future, when it comes to CMOS Technology.

I can only hope to see a native monochrome APS size Canon sensor in the body of for example a QHY8L at even more affordable prices.

That would really break open the market of cooled deepsky imaging cameras.

When it comes to the cooled 1100D. It means noise will be less of an issue, like with a Cooled CCD.

But the 1100D will still be the 1100D with average 35% peak QE compared to the 60% peak QE of the QHY8L.

What this means is, that you can get good results with the QHY8L at much shorter exposure times compared to a full spektrum modded cooled Canon 1100D (which is by the way more expensive than the QHY8L).

That's why I came up with the QHY8L as possible candidate for you, as you are imaging from a window with very short imaging timeframe oportunities. So you will get more out of a QHY8L than a 1100D in those short time intervals.

This is a single 15 minute exposure, with no dark, no flats used:

http://www.astrobin.com/full/29837/0/

I will start eating my socks if an 1100D can produce that with just a single 15 minute exposure.

PS. This is an image taken with 5 min exposures, stacked 32 frames at a similar focal length as your 150PDS:

http://www.astrobin.com/full/66277/B/ (tho I don't like the artificial diffraction spikes)

Wow!!! I want one! Where do I sign up???

d)

[Thalestris24]

The 600D is a very nice camera. Will definitely produce less noice than an 1100D. Has a sligthly higher peak QE (40%) and larger ISO range.

You can get a full spektrum (or Baader filter) modified 600D at a very nice price on cheapastronomy.com . But ofcourse it's not cooled.

And as JTW is already charging 1400 euro for a deep cooled 1100D (just checked. Seems price has gone up). I don't want to know what they will charge for a deep cooled 600D. Most likely in the range of 1700 euro.

As comparison. The QHY8L is 1000 euro (899,- pounds at modernastronomy).

Ofcourse you have to make your own decisions on what you decide.

I myself just cannot justify 1400 euro for a cooled 1100D and even more for a cooled 600D, when I can buy a cooled APS size OSC CCD, with much higher QE for far less money.

PS. What we also don't know yet (as it's all fairly New) is possible dew (and potential ice forming) issues with deep cooling these extreme modded DSLR cameras and how they tend to prevent it.

Actually, I got the impression from them that JTW only offer the 1100d as a deep cooled version now so the 600d may not be an option for a cooled dslr anyway. Their web site is not up to date so prices may be bit uncertain though they confirmed the 1400 euros with me a month ago. But 1400 euros = about £1150 vs about £900 for the qhy8l. I'd have to add the extra cost of a lp filter for the QHY so there's not much in it cost wise. I could also use a JTW 1100d with my canon zoom lens which would be handy for widefield shots. JTW say they purge the ultimate cameras with argon and seal them. I'm sure they would have tested it for any dew problems etc. But, yeah, need to wait for user reviews.

Louise

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Actually, I got the impression from them that JTW only offer the 1100d as a deep cooled version now so the 600d may not be an option for a cooled dslr anyway. Their web site is not up to date so prices may be bit uncertain though they confirmed the 1400 euros with me a month ago. But 1400 euros = about £1150 vs about £900 for the qhy8l. I'd have to add the extra cost of a lp filter for the QHY so there's not much in it cost wise. I could also use a JTW 1100d with my canon zoom lens which would be handy for widefield shots. JTW say they purge the ultimate cameras with argon and seal them. I'm sure they would have tested it for any dew problems etc. But, yeah, need to wait for user reviews.

Louise

You need a CLS clip filter for the DSLR too.

Unless you already have one?

A regular 2" LP filter is about 80 pounds. A lot cheaper than those CLS clip filters.

[Thalestris24]

Yeah I have a cls-ccd clip and JTW include them fitted with the ultimate cameras. I think I'd probably get a Hutech one if I was to get a qhy8l. They are about £150...  But anyway I'll be mulling over it for a while. Maybe I won't get another camera at all. It would help if the weather was kinder...

Louise

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Yeah I have a cls-ccd clip and JTW include them fitted with the ultimate cameras. I think I'd probably get a Hutech one if I was to get a qhy8l. They are about £150...  But anyway I'll be mulling over it for a while. Maybe I won't get another camera at all. It would help if the weather was kinder...

Louise

Yes weather is a total nightmare.

Got over three months straight cloud cover by now here in Oslo. /sigh

[Thalestris24]

Yes weather is a total nightmare.

Got over three months straight cloud cover by now here in Oslo. /sigh

Commiserations! The frustrating thing is that they sometimes forecast clear periods here and I get all excited but then at the last minute it gets cloudy Still, I'm in it for the long haul!

Louise

[Thalestris24]

Ok - so I've bitten the ccd bullet and ordered a qhy8l .  I dithered and overnight it ended up costing me an extra £100    . They were selling like hotcakes, apparently.  But prices are likely to go up again... It's painful to spend a thousand quid, but still. It seems like quite a good camera with a 40 deg C delta which I think will be helpful as my kit is otherwise more or less at room temperature. At the same time, the qhy10 has come down in price - was tempted, but couldn't justify another £300...

Hope I've done the right thing.... I was still considering the supercooled JTW ultimate but, in the end, the higher QE of the ccd and 16bit ccd vs 14bit cmos, sold me. It's slightly frustrating in that the qhy8l sensor seems to be an 'ex-nikon' camera one and you can pick up an old d70 (but only 12 bit) for less than £100... Oh well.

However, JTW are still getting an order for an uncooled monochrome 1100d from me . Trying to get the best of both worlds. I know it's possible to do NB with the qhy8l but seems better to have the full resolution of a mono. Of course, the mono 1100d won't know that it's mono so there might be some extra processing involved with the raw files. I'll have to look into that!

Louise

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Outch, just see the price has gone up indeed.

I guess this the new 2014 edition, that was suppose to cause a price rise due to the cooler update.

But congrats!! You won't regret it. There are a lot of people out there happy with this camera.

EDIT: Just noticed the price drop of the QHY10. That's a huge price drop indeed.

[Thalestris24]

Outch, just see the price has gone up indeed.

I guess this the new 2014 edition, that was suppose to cause a price rise due to the cooler update.

But congrats!! You won't regret it. There are a lot of people out there happy with this camera.

Hi

I think the 'cooler update' is really a bit of a ruse. I don't think they've actually changed anything but it was a very cheap camera in comparison to others on the market. Perhaps too cheap for it's spec, from a commercial selling point of view. So I think the price changes are just rebalancing. It still seems good value but wish I'd grabbed one at the old price - sigh. Apparently, the old icx413aq sensors are running out now so I guess eventually qhy8l's will be superceded.

Anyway, I know some people have had problems with the qhy8l but I've seen plenty of good results so I'm hopeful. I'm looking forward to the mono 1100d too - another model that will now fade into a purely second-hand market. Us amateur astrophotographers seem destined to pick up the dregs of the mass market! I suppose prices will increase generally as old ccd sensors cease to be available. Mind you, I daren't think what academic institutes and others have to pay for high-spec 'scientific' cameras, so mustn't grumble too much about current prices.

Louise

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Hi

I think the 'cooler update' is really a bit of a ruse. I don't think they've actually changed anything but it was a very cheap camera in comparison to others on the market. Perhaps too cheap for it's spec, from a commercial selling point of view. So I think the price changes are just rebalancing. It still seems good value but wish I'd grabbed one at the old price - sigh. Apparently, the old icx413aq sensors are running out now so I guess eventually qhy8l's will be superceded.

Anyway, I know some people have had problems with the qhy8l but I've seen plenty of good results so I'm hopeful. I'm looking forward to the mono 1100d too - another model that will now fade into a purely second-hand market. Us amateur astrophotographers seem destined to pick up the dregs of the mass market! I suppose prices will increase generally as old ccd sensors cease to be available. Mind you, I daren't think what academic institutes and others have to pay for high-spec 'scientific' cameras, so mustn't grumble too much about current prices.

Louise

He updated the cooling from -35 to -40.  Not big of a change no. But as you already said, it was really low priced for this kind of camera. The next camera that comes closest to the QHY8L is the Atik 383L+ at 1700 pounds (which has the old KODAK sensor that produces a lot of noise and needs temperature matched dark frames).  With the QHY8L, when fully cooled, you will hardly need any dark frames. Sony sensors in general just produce overal much cleaner images.

There were early problems when the QHY8L released, regarding some dew and icing problems. But these have all been fixed over time. Also a Silicon gel tube with silica beads is included now, to prevent any dew forming.

That's where the initial negativity came from. Typical issues and pains other camera producers have gone through as well.

To close it off. This is what can be achieved With One Shot Color cameras. I just love this image. It's trully amazing:

http://qhyccd.com/image/repository/QHY10-12/Flying_Monsters_Scorpius_QHY10.jpg

EDIT: Here is his website, where you can see more: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ytoropin/sets/72157627512718101/

[Thalestris24]

He updated the cooling from -35 to -40.  Not big of a change no. But as you already said, it was really low priced for this kind of camera. The next camera that comes closest to the QHY8L is the Atik 383L+ at 1700 pounds (which has the old KODAK sensor that produces a lot of noise and needs temperature matched dark frames).  With the QHY8L, when fully cooled, you will hardly need any dark frames. Sony sensors in general just produce overal much cleaner images.

There were early problems when the QHY8L released, regarding some dew and icing problems. But these have all been fixed over time. Also a Silicon gel tube with silica beads is included now, to prevent any dew forming.

That's where the initial negativity came from. Typical issues and pains other camera producers have gone through as well.

To close it off. This is what can be achieved With One Shot Color cameras. I just love this image. It's trully amazing:

http://qhyccd.com/image/repository/QHY10-12/Flying_Monsters_Scorpius_QHY10.jpg

EDIT: Here is his website, where you can see more: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ytoropin/sets/72157627512718101/

Yeah a truly lovely image made with his F2 Nikkor - and very dark skies, no doubt! Only 6 subs too. Sometimes I wish for city lighting powercuts! I'll maybe try some widefield shots with my cheap canon zoom lens attached to the qhy8l! I should invest in a laptop and a leisure battery so I can take some of the kit outside. I hope I don't regret not buying the qhy10 but I really wanted the monochrome camera too. I have to wait several weeks now until Bernard restocks. Getting excited already!

Louise

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Yeah a truly lovely image made with his F2 Nikkor - and very dark skies, no doubt! Only 6 subs too. Sometimes I wish for city lighting powercuts! I'll maybe try some widefield shots with my cheap canon zoom lens attached to the qhy8l! I should invest in a laptop and a leisure battery so I can take some of the kit outside. I hope I don't regret not buying the qhy10 but I really wanted the monochrome camera too. I have to wait several weeks now until Bernard restocks. Getting excited already!

Louise

I think the main difference between the QHY8L and QHY10 is the pixel size tho. The QE is the same (60,50,50%). So don't get all worked out over it. There is always bigger, better, etc. At a moment you just have to buy something for the price you want to pay.

I have seen similar quality images made with the QHY8L. It is a really nice camera for the price.

Here, I did some better digging  Not everyone uses Astrobin.

http://astroexpo.pl/?module=Photo&func=fullview&id_photo=4887  (click image for larger size)

Nice site with QHY8L images: http://www.flickriver.com/groups/1634703@N24/pool/interesting/

Another: https://astrolucius.wordpress.com/category/foto-astronomiche/

I have the QHY8L really high on my own wishlist of possible CCD camera candidates.

The QHY10 is definitely interesting too, now the price has come down significantly, tho (due to large data size of images) I worry a bit about the long download times at full res 1:1 bin and how this works with focussing and centering.

PS. And regarding using camera lenses. I found this:

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p2836_Geoptik-T2-Adaptor-for-CANON-EOS-Lens-with-1-4--Phototripod.html

[Thalestris24]

I think the main difference between the QHY8L and QHY10 is the pixel size tho. The QE is the same (60,50,50%). So don't get all worked out over it. There is always bigger, better, etc. At a moment you just have to buy something for the price you want to pay.

I have seen similar quality images made with the QHY8L. It is a really nice camera for the price.

Here, I did some better digging  Not everyone uses Astrobin.

http://astroexpo.pl/?module=Photo&func=fullview&id_photo=4887  (click image for larger size)

Nice site with QHY8L images: http://www.flickriver.com/groups/1634703@N24/pool/interesting/

Another: https://astrolucius.wordpress.com/category/foto-astronomiche/

I have the QHY8L really high on my own wishlist of possible CCD camera candidates.

The QHY10 is definitely interesting too, now the price has come down significantly, tho (due to large data size of images) I worry a bit about the long download times at full res 1:1 bin and how this works with focussing and centering.

PS. And regarding using camera lenses. I found this:

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p2836_Geoptik-T2-Adaptor-for-CANON-EOS-Lens-with-1-4--Phototripod.html

Yeah, I realise it's mainly the pixel size that's the difference. The smaller pixel size of the QHY10 would still be bigger than the 1100d and would be advantageous especially if I were to use a barlow. I don't think there is any problem with focusing as there is a preview mode. I think after exposing for say 5 or 10 mins having to wait 10-15s for the image to download isn't really a problem.

As soon as I get the qhy8l, get set up, and get clear skies, I'll be sure to post my first light images and my opinion of the camera.

Louise

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Yeah, I realise it's mainly the pixel size that's the difference. The smaller pixel size of the QHY10 would still be bigger than the 1100d and would be advantageous especially if I were to use a barlow. I don't think there is any problem with focusing as there is a preview mode. I think after exposing for say 5 or 10 mins having to wait 10-15s for the image to download isn't really a problem.

As soon as I get the qhy8l, get set up, and get clear skies, I'll be sure to post my first light images and my opinion of the camera.

Louise

Looking forward to it!

[Russe]

How large are the file sizes after 300-600s exposures??

[GuillermoBarrancos]

How large are the file sizes after 300-600s exposures??

Can´t find it either. Bit annoying atm, as the review section of CN seems to be gone now and will be for quite some time.

But there are several People on this forum that have the QHY8L. So they should be able to tell us.

[Thalestris24]

Hi

It's simple enough to calculate the theoretical raw file size (excluding headers which are negligible:

resolution = 3032 x 2016

multiply by 16 bits = 3032 x 2016 x 16

divide by 1024 x 1024 x 8 to get megabytes

This gives a size of 12 Mbytes so that's a minimum size.

The exposure time makes no difference.

However, the file format will make a difference. I assume qhy use something standard such as fits format. Then the actual files will be much bigger! I'm sure someone here can confirm qhy file formats/sizes and actual qhy8l file sizes.

Note the above formula doesn't quite work for Canon raw files. They vary in size from image to image so Canon must do some compression on the initial raw data. The 1100d files are several Mb smaller than the theoretical minimum 17.4 Mb.

Louise