Manual Guiding

[long_arms]

Yes you did read that right!

MANUAL guiding.

It seems that on the older websites I go on you still see some mention of this but I've never seen a topic about it on here (I do understand why).

Anyway, I haven't got money to spend on upgrading my mount to enable any form of electronic guiding. And I'm not 100% convinced with handset modifications etc.

I have the standard heq5 (again you read that right!) just dual tracking motors, but with greater stability and weight handling than an eq5. I bought it second hand in good condition for around the price of an eq5 by the way. It would cost £300 to upgrade the mount for guiding.

I've seen people discussing the ability of finder guiders and wondering why I can't just get an adapter for a webcam or my firefly (perhaps with a barlow) and manually guide with the finder, sharpcap and a reticule over a guidestar?

I'm 20 and very keen so I understand why the effort would be too much for some, however I would be completely fine sitting out in the cold staring at a screen all night if it meant 5 minute subs.

I would love to hear everyones opinions on this, or any alternatives they can think of.

Thanks,

Dan

P.s I have a 200p f/5

[steppenwolf]

Absolutely no reason why you shouldn't manually guide, that's how it used to be done and I have tried it myself. However, poking your eye down the guide 'scope for long periods of time is uncomfortable in the extreme so your webcam idea is a good one although remember that webcams have fast 'shutter' speeds to you will require bright stars to guide on. I'd recommend using Al's Reticule software for the crosshair overlay.

[ArmyAirForce]

I used a webcam and Sharpcap software for manually guiding this image of M103. Sharpcap can add crosshairs to the screen so you can tell if the star is drifting.

5 x 5 minute subs

[long_arms]

Thankyou so much for the replies

I was worried that it was a bit of a pipedream! That's a great image! I guess I'll have to just give it a go then when I can. (And look at m103, I've seriously neglected open clusters since getting my telescope)

I'll crank up the shutter speed on my firefly and if that fails have a play with an asdacam. As a first deep sky imaging target it will obviously be m42 so there must be a couple of bright guide stars around there!

Thanks again,

Dan

[chrisshillito]

I have the standard heq5 (again you read that right!) just dual tracking motors, but with greater stability and weight handling than an eq5. I bought it second hand in good condition for around the price of an eq5 by the way. It would cost £300 to upgrade the mount for guiding.

Dan,

You can certainly manually guide, and using a webcam finderscope to provide the guide image might seem a convenient method of going about it. However manual guidiing is usually carried out at a focal lengh equivalent or greater than the imaging focal length. If you guide by eye on a finderscope image then I'm afraid by the time you notice and correct for any movement your image has already been compromised by a much larger pixel movement! Auto guiding is able to get away with using finderscope images beacuse the software's centroid algroithms can determine the centre of a star image to a sub pixel resolution (they say to a 10th of a pixel but I'm not convinced its that good myself). So to sucessfully manually guide you will most like need need a higher focal length image - so either a guide scope or off axis guider. The problem with an off axis guider is that the image you would get would be dim and would most likely be beyond a non modified webcam.

I assume the £300 you mention is the cose of fitting a synscan upgrade kit to your mount. Whilst this is one option for autoguiding it isn't the only one. For instance there is a simple modification on the handcontroller paddle that can be made such that ST-4 signals effectively result in paddle button presses. See this guide from shoestring astronomy (http://www.store.shoestringastronomy.com/eq_mod.pdf). Shoestring provide a simple kit for this costing only $8 (but then it is just a connector on the end of a wire!) . To provide the ST-4 output from your PC you would need a shoestring GPUSB ($75) or a hitecastro USB guider that FLO sell for £59 (http://www.firstlightoptics.com/guide-cameras/hitecastro-usb-guider.html).

Chris.

[ArmyAirForce]

...... The problem with an off axis guider is that the image you would get would be dim and would most likely be beyond a non modified webcam.....

I tried my webcam through my TS OAG and could only see mag 4 stars and brighter which very much limited targets I could guide on. The webcam was however only a stop gap measure until I could afford my proper guide camera.

[long_arms]

Thanks guys,

I think to be honest I shall firstly just nail drift alignment and see what length subs I can get. I'm sure 2 minute subs could give me plenty of imaging candidates!

I assume the £300 you mention is the cose of fitting a synscan upgrade kit to your mount.

Yes. It seems a lot for a couple of motors and gears! Plus I have no interest in goto. I wish you could buy some of the bits oem, without synscan controllers, posh new case for sockets etc.

I had seen the handset mod before but I am a little sceptical as I have seen people on here saying the handset has blown. A new handset isn't cheap, plus I would want the handset to still work without a pc for visual purposes (it hopefully does?)

There's no need for me to jump straight to guiding to be fair, I was just thinking ahead. If I see an OAG come up cheap, I would certainly be interested, definitely what I'd want for the future.

Dan

[steppenwolf]

I had seen the handset mod before but I am a little sceptical as I have seen people on here saying the handset has blown. A new handset isn't cheap, plus I would want the handset to still work without a pc for visual purposes (it hopefully does?)

It's hard to see a correlation between modifying the basic hand-controller for autoguiding and them 'blowing' as the modification simply places relays in parallel with the original direction key switches. This is a very passive modification and can be made even more so if a relay board is used between the guide camera output and the hand-controller.

[long_arms]

I'm sorry I was referring to this topic from quatermass, (If it is innappropriate for me to link to his topic, please remove it, I just want to be as clear as possible )

I would love to do this mod as long as I can reduce the risk of paying £100 for a new controller! Not sure what a relay board is but I have an electrician friend that could help me with anything.

On that topic they discuss arduino's and all sorts of things that go straight over my head aha!

Dan

[ArmyAirForce]

...... If I see an OAG come up cheap, I would certainly be interested, definitely what I'd want for the future.

Dan

Depending on what imaging camera you use, you may have a focus issue with the 200P and some OAG's. My DSLR is fitted to my 200PDS, and to achieve focus, the focusser is only about 1/2 inch out. With my 9mm thick TS OAG fitted, the focusser is only 1/8 inch out to get focus. I can't recall if the 200P is a low profile focusser. If it isn't, and you get a normal thicker OAG, you may not get focus. I'm sure there are others here with more knowledge of the 200P who can advise.

[chrisshillito]

I think to be honest I shall firstly just nail drift alignment and see what length subs I can get. I'm sure 2 minute subs could give me plenty of imaging candidates!

Fair enough, there's nothing wrong with taking time to learn the basics - too many folks seem to rush in and are quickly out of their depth. You certainly don't need guiding to get results you can take real pride. In going an unguided route you may find yourself having to having to be more selective in choosing your "best" subs in order to reject those images where PE is moving the fastest, but in my view a slightly oval stars are no reason to spoil the pleasure of actually capturing DSOs.

I had seen the handset mod before but I am a little sceptical as I have seen people on here saying the handset has blown. A new handset isn't cheap, plus I would want the handset to still work without a pc for visual purposes (it hopefully does?)

To be honest If you search through forums such as these you will find examples of folks blowing most things up and as folks rarely post to say "another day and everything's still working fine" this can give a more worrying impression than is strictly warranted. I'm sure Doug at shoestring would be happy to discuss any concerns you may have - he and his products have a good reputation as far as I'm aware. As I understand it the mod simply makes the same electrical connections that pressing the buttons do - I may be wrong but I don't believe there is any voltage being supplied. The mod won't affect non guided operation. Anyhow I just though I'd mention it as an option you might want to research and appreciate that hardware mods aren't everyone's cup of tea.

Chris.

[chrisshillito]

I'm sorry I was referring to this topic from quatermass, (If it is innappropriate for me to link to his topic, please remove it, I just want to be as clear as possible ) http://stargazerslou...s/#entry1742273

I would love to do this mod as long as I can reduce the risk of paying £100 for a new controller! Not sure what a relay board is but I have an electrician friend that could help me with anything.

On that topic they discuss arduino's and all sorts of things that go straight over my head aha!

Dan

Dan,

I can see why you would be concerned from reading that thread but if you concentrate only on what Quatermass says you will see that he himself does not attribute his failures to a ST-4 mode - this is just pure speculation made from others.

The first one with added guide port blew because it got left in the rain but the others 3 were all left as normal and run from the supplyed battery back. The fact that they blew with normal use has put me off them for good if your having to pay 100.00 for the whole lot your going to want something more reliable then that for sure.

Sent from my GT-S5670 using Tapatalk 2

So only one of his controllers had the mod and it blew from being left in the rain! The problem with discussion groups is that sometimes folks in their efforts to help make valid speculations that others then jump on before the original poster can respond.

Chris.

[ollypenrice]

I'm all for you having a go at manual guiding via a webcam but, as Chris said, a very cheapo longer fl scope would be a better bet. I gave one away last year and somebody might give you one.

As for GoTo, it is not, in imaging, what it is in visual observing. It is a time saver and very, very helpful. In imaging, time is precious and must never be wasted. Also you will often want to image things that cannot be seen, and have never been seen, in any telescope.

Olly

http://ollypenrice.smugmug.com/Other/Best-of-Les-Granges/22435624_WLMPTM#!i=2277139556&k=FGgG233

[stem1989]

manual guiding is possible, but it can get very frustrating on long cold nights, by all means give it a go and hopefully you will stick at it longer than I did lol >.<

[ArmyAirForce]

When I was doing it, I had the scope on the patio, while the laptop and myself were hiding in my daughter's play house where it was warm!

[Ludd]

That sounds like quite a cool arrangement. I've wondered about a laptop-assisted guiding set-up. For planetary imaging I often have an f10 scope set up with a webcam in the end, and I can sit in comfort with the handset in front of me, monitoring the position of the planet to make sure it stays in the middle of the tiny chip of the toucam. It would not be a very big step from that set-up to having my little f6 scope on the same mount, with my DSLR stuck on the back and pointing at some DSO or other while I monitor a nearby star on the laptop screen.

So thanks for the inspiration!