"So you believe is astronomy do you?"

[sanmatt]

With all respect, I would consider that as ripping people off (as naive as they may have been). I also doubt whether astrologers have much of an understanding of mathematics.

It's a con, plain and simple.

[Probablynot]

It's a con, plain and simple.

I do think there needs to be a little bit of respect for the science (look it up) upon which the much more recent practice of astronomy was founded.

Astrology was (is) no more or less empirical than astronomy. Both are based on observation. Astronomy - the child of Astrology - merely ignores the empirical knowledge that the astrologers had built up about earthly parallels, and concentrates on observation and theorising.

The way that astrologers link earthly events with heavenly observations has changed over the centuries. Astrologers learn, like astronomers do. The fact that (eg) the Moon can be seen to be in a particular part of the sky does NOT 'cause' a person to have certain characteristics or tendencies. But the primary 'cause' that created the Universe is the same 'cause' that moves planets in their orbits. The primary 'cause' that put the Moon where it is in the sky, is the same 'cause' that resulted in my being born, and eventually taking an interest in astronomy.

Butterflies and storms. It's chaos theory writ large.

Astrology is just an attempt to see ways through the chaos and observe similarities, parallels. So is astronomy. So is the Hedron Collider. So is religion. So is the Hubble telescope. So is philosophy. So is quantum, string theory, et al.

[Timshortman]

Having a belief in something is not necessary bad as the placebo effect shows us belief in a medicine will and can help you if you think it will.

I don't agree with making money out of a belief but if you want to believe that you are a only compatible with a Leo go for it!

(I'm a leo btw)

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2

[PortableAstronomer]

I read somewhere that there are 9 times more astrologers in the United States than there are astronomers...sad really, people would rather believe in hebby geeby, hocus pocus, you-do-voo-do, stand up kneel down cross yer legs and say ommm horse droppings - than science, reason, evidence or even common sense

I get the impression there is significantly more astrology followers on this side of the Atlantic too. Just because it offers a highly illogical feeling of reassurance on one's daily lives, just like street lights create a feeling of safety for the wider public. The combination of the two highly illogical consequences eventually wound me up enough to write a few SGL posts on what I think it should be called : Cosmic Delusion Syndrome.

Sorry to mention it again, but I felt much better after writing it. :-)

But seriously though, if you say you're into Astronomy then people think you're into horoscopes.

If you say you'er a stargazer, people think you look at stars. I don't think I've ever looked at a star through a scope.

Or do you just say astronomer and not care what people think?

Is there an alternative short phrase or expression that you prefer, that better describes amateur astronomy?

I say I "photograph the night sky", then immediately show a quick time-lapse of the milky way rotating over a dark site. That usually ensures that any perception of my activities are suitably distanced from that voodoo mumbo jumbo horoscope malarkey.

Tim, good point to mention the placebo effect which sums up how Mystic Meg must have made her money. I must say I had a good laugh reading some of the replies in this thread.

[David JM]

I do think there needs to be a little bit of respect for the science (look it up) upon which the much more recent practice of astronomy was founded.

I did look it up, there is another post with references, even Wiki refers to astrology as "a system of beliefs", not a science.

Astrology was (is) no more or less empirical than astronomy. Both are based on observation. Astronomy - the child of Astrology - merely ignores the empirical knowledge that the astrologers had built up about earthly parallels, and concentrates on observation and theorising.

Earthly parallels, yes. When Sirius rises the nile floods, or it did 3500-4500 years ago, it's probably a bit different now with precession and man-made control of the river. Astromomy makes different, and provable predictions. What's more if the theory is proven to be wrong it will be discarded.

But the primary 'cause' that created the Universe is the same 'cause' that moves planets in their orbits. The primary 'cause' that put the Moon where it is in the sky, is the same 'cause' that resulted in my being born, and eventually taking an interest in astronomy.

The universe was likely to have been created by a random fluctuation. Planets move in their orbits because of momentum and gravity. You were born by a biological interaction and beat the odds as [iIRC] 90% of pregnancies don't go full term. Your interest in astronomy was probably due to your environment. There is no one 'cause' that links three of these events. The current physical model may eventually get us the GUT, but the big bang and gravity are probably linked. You could of course say the 'cause' is some form of god.

Butterflies and storms. It's chaos theory writ large.

Astrology is just an attempt to see ways through the chaos and observe similarities, parallels. So is astronomy. So is the Hedron Collider. So is religion. So is the Hubble telescope. So is philosophy. So is quantum, string theory, et al.

How does astrology actually observe similarities and parallels? Similarities and parallels to what, or between what? Astronomy hasn't yet found a parallel to our solar system.

The LHC isn't looking for parallels, it is trying to discover the final [possibly] parts of the laws that govern the universe.

Religion-a discussion for another forum perhaps?

Hubble is discovering and exploring parts of the universe that we haven't seen before.

You have alternated between things that have provable results and accurate predictions in your last list with things that don't.

I made an astrological prediction last week that someone wearing blue would bring you an important message. Let me know if it comes true.

[David JM]

Is there an alternative short phrase or expression that you prefer, that better describes amateur astronomy?

Yes:

"I am someone who lusts after things that I cannot afford.

Someone who would patiently wait for weeks for a clear sky to use the kit I can afford.

Someone who will freeze their backside off in the middle of nowhere away from all the light pollution.

Someone who finally sees or images a faint smudge that barely fills 1% of the frame and that Hubble has seen with more clarity and I can look up on the web in two seconds.

...and thinks it's worthwhile to do it."

[Probablynot]

I made an astrological prediction last week that someone wearing blue would bring you an important message. Let me know if it comes true.

In what way was it astrological?

Oh, and if Steve at FLO was wearing blue when he predicted I'd be getting a SW Exp 200PDS OTA in the next few days, I'm hoping I'll be able to give you Good News soon!

[PortableAstronomer]

"I am someone who lusts after things that I cannot afford.

Someone who would patiently wait for weeks for a clear sky to use the kit I can afford.

Someone who will freeze their backside off in the middle of nowhere away from all the light pollution.

Someone who finally sees or images a faint smudge that barely fills 1% of the frame and that Hubble has seen with more clarity and I can look up on the web in two seconds....and thinks it's worthwhile to do it."

Ouch, I guess I was asking for that. Silly me.

[Quatermass]

I want to believe..

I want to believe that the clouds are going to clear away this week and its going to stop raining every night sigh

[Probablynot]

Trying to get you practical-obsessive people into a spiritual thought pattern can be rather depressing.

Om

Om

Om

(repeat after me)

Om .....

[Quatermass]

My dog does that when I give him his dinner om om om om om:)

[Probablynot]

You've been watching too many tv ads, Mark

[Quatermass]

I know its all these clouds keeping me indoors driving me nuts

[decomo50]

Yes, also sad that nearly every newspaper and mag on the shelf devotes an entire page to this hebby jebby - hocus pocus - mumbo jumbo, astrology nonsense, how many of these publications devote a page or part of to astronomy or science topic?.....why not?, because we is stupud as a species:) sigh

[PortableAstronomer]

It's because, like other parts of journalism in newspapers, delivering horoscopes is valued on the article's effect rather than accuracy. Good comparison is that of horoscopes and the articles on of street lights being switched off to save money, followed by the obligatory remarks of "eco-nutters and nerdy anoraks complain about light pollution" ; and the subsequent journalistic scaremongering of natural darkness : They are both forms of journalistic playgrounds. They offer Joe public the feeling of connecting to their own hum drum daily routine, through shocking exageration or just plain mumbo jumbo. That's where astrologers and journalists have in common, and that's why they probably get along rather well in terms of co-publishing.

In contrast with astronomy, even if they did know the difference between astronomy and 'cosmic delusion syndrome'/astrology, then most of those still think that stargazers look at featureless white dots in the sky, while being outside in the scary darkness.

One must forgive most people for not seeing the appeal of looking at featureless points of light in the sky at silly hours in the morning; especially now since newspaper editors have taught them that if you venture more than 5 metres away from a floodlight and into those scary dark patches then you'll get mugged.

Most people are so swamped out with light pollution that the only 'stars' they can see in the sky are the brighter planets. It could be a nice conjuction of Venus and Jupiter, or Saturn's rings might look great through a scope, but to them, they're just bright stars so they must think we are really looney.

LP has destoyed the beauty of the night sky ; but it hasn't destroyed Joe public's quest for articles of psychological reassurance and connections to the daily events of one's own life.

[Quatermass]

I try to encourage people to take a closer look at the sky showing my neighbours M101 live on the lap top had them talking about astronomy for weeks. People often have no idea what is just above there heads. I am sure when they are made aware of the reality of whats up there it changes there perspective on life. Religion and politics are not allowed to be discussed on the forum for good reasons but one positive way to change our outlook on life is to become an astronomer that really opens your eyes

Sent from my GT-S5670 using Tapatalk 2

[David JM]

In what way was it astrological?

Either:

1] Mars was in Leo and Saturn was rising

Or

2] I made it up and it's so general it will happen to someone, somewhere.

I'll let you decide.

[sanmatt]

I do think there needs to be a little bit of respect for the science (look it up) upon which the much more recent practice of astronomy was founded.

Astrology was (is) no more or less empirical than astronomy. Both are based on observation. Astronomy - the child of Astrology - merely ignores the empirical knowledge that the astrologers had built up about earthly parallels, and concentrates on observation and theorising.

The way that astrologers link earthly events with heavenly observations has changed over the centuries. Astrologers learn, like astronomers do. The fact that (eg) the Moon can be seen to be in a particular part of the sky does NOT 'cause' a person to have certain characteristics or tendencies. But the primary 'cause' that created the Universe is the same 'cause' that moves planets in their orbits. The primary 'cause' that put the Moon where it is in the sky, is the same 'cause' that resulted in my being born, and eventually taking an interest in astronomy.

Butterflies and storms. It's chaos theory writ large.

Astrology is just an attempt to see ways through the chaos and observe similarities, parallels. So is astronomy. So is the Hedron Collider. So is religion. So is the Hubble telescope. So is philosophy. So is quantum, string theory, et al.

I wrote a 24K word thesis on astrology. It's a con, plain and simple. However I do understand that it underpinned Renaissance life. However today, it's a con, plain and simple and for £1.50 per minute you can call me and I will tell you why ;P

[David JM]

for £1.50 per minute you can call me

Depends on what you are wearing

[sanmatt]

Depends on what you are wearing

It doesnt matter what Im wearing, I'd just be reading out a script promising you riches, love and friendship....or something else equally vague

(jeans and a jumper btw)

[David JM]

It doesnt matter what Im wearing, I'd just be reading out a script promising you riches, love and friendship....or something else equally vague

(jeans and a jumper btw)

Sounds like the "Dead Ringers" Brian Sewell call to an adult chat line.

[sanmatt]

Sounds like the "Dead Ringers" Brian Sewell call to an adult chat line.

Ah no this would be an astrology line! And you know that!

Part of my thesis research was to chat with astrologers, and those doing the phone lines - and they confessed that they are given scripts to use with everyone. I had to have a full natal chart made for me also...right loads of cobblers it was. And I had to make readings for people too.. people can ask a questions and the time is logged and its based on the time the question was asked amongst other things, they wanted to know if they were loved, or if they would be more than friends, or if they are thougth about. I tell ya, there are a lot of needy sad miserbale people out there in dire need of answers.

In Renaissance times, the questions asked were 'when shall I cut my hair?', 'when shall I bathe?'. When will Pope Innocent VIII die?, who stole my sheep.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I once asked an astrologer if he could guess my star sign, given that she had had quite an earful of my personality already. She accepted the challenge and stated I was clearly a Gemini. I stated I was an Aquarius. She then stated I must have Gemini rising. As an astronomer, I could quickly work out I had Aquarius rising. She then stated my moon-sign must be Gemini. I stated that no doubt some rock was in Gemini when I was born, but that I doubted it had anything to do with who I am,

I guess that that remark is so typically Aquarius, isn't it

[pajr777]

Are we allowed to move on to tarot, homeopathy and intelligent design now that we've debunked astrology, or should we stay closer to 'home' and do alien abduction?

[George Jones]

For fun, let's take the title of thread literally, "So you believe is astronomy do you?"

Now, focus on a particular aspect of astronomy, Newton's law of gravity. Pretend that Newton's law of gravity is true (actually, it isn't). What would it take to prove Newton's law of gravity true, so that no belief is required?

Full disclosure: I'm a physicist.