CPC 800 Hyperstar CCD recommendation

[AlistairHowie]

I'm about to purchase my first scope, a CPC 800, and am looking at getting Hyperstar for DSO imaging. I know I need to walk before I can run, but I'm just trying to get an idea of CCD costs for such a system.

I don't see much point in taking images if they're going to just sit on my laptop, so I'd be looking at a CCD with enough resolution that I could print out some decent photos ... not sure the size of the photos, but certainly bigger than 6x4.

So I have 2 questions ....

Can I simply look at the number of mega pixels as I would with an ordinary digital camera, and use that as a guide to determine how large my prints could be, or are there other considerations that I need to take into account like size of pixels, etc?

I'm just about to buy the telescope and accessories, so I don't have thousands to spend on a CCD. Can someone suggest a good CCD for a CPC 800 scope using Hyperstar - something that would let me print reasonable size images - say A4 or even A3?

What else would I need for such a set-up - is an autofocuser essential or just a nice to have. Again, any recommendations?

Lastly, ... is it true that CPC OTAs don't need to be recollimated each time the secondary mirror is removed for Hyperstar? Seems too good to be true, but Starizona's website make a specific point of it not being reuired because the lens assembly is keyed so can't go in teh wrong way. Just wondering.

Many thanks!

[BlueAstra]

You may need a wedge with a Cpc to get really long exposures without field rotation. I'd look at cylinder format cameras to minimise aperture blockage at the front, like Starlight Xpress. I think the minimum telescope aperture size with a DSLR would be 9.25" or greater. If the pixel size of the camera is the same as your DSLR then the megapixels would be comparable for image size, though the format may be different.

[Tiki]

This will be helpful if you've not already seen it.

http://stargazerslounge.com/discussions-cameras/89946-choosing-ccd-camera.html

[AlistairHowie]

All good advice/food for thought. Thanks.

[dmahon]

I was going to buy one of those, but was put off by the experts in here (and am glad they did so). I got an HEQ5 and an Equinox 80 instead.

To get the most from the CPC I think that you need a wedge and a permanent setup, which I don't have.

If you do go down that route, I agree that Starlight Express, new Atik and some QHY cameras have the best format.

[AlistairHowie]

I was going to buy one of those, but was put off by the experts in here (and am glad they did so). I got an HEQ5 and an Equinox 80 instead.

To get the most from the CPC I think that you need a wedge and a permanent setup, which I don't have.

If you do go down that route, I agree that Starlight Express, new Atik and some QHY cameras have the best format.

Hmmm ... and there I was thinking that I'd bottomed out my 'scope research, and was now moving on to accessory research!

I've been impressed by this video of DSO imaging in a light polluted parking lot ....

It does seem, though, that with a hyperstar lens, an autofocuser and CCD, that unguided DSO imaging can be achieved "relatively" easily. Now, that's not to say it's easy, nor without a learning curve and the need for experience, but it does seem to be considerably easier and more convenient that what traditional DSO imaging would require.

I know an apo on an EQ mount is more desirable, but with the CPC it does seem like I can get all the convenience of an Alt/Az system with the potential for non-wedged DSO imaging.

.... or have I just fallen for some serious markting hype??

[ollypenrice]

To the best of my knowledge no-one on here is using a Hyperstar, at least with any regularity. It is a tempting system but don't just swallow the Starizona ads hook, line and sinker. F2 is one almighty F ratio. The depth of field (are you in focus or are you not?) is bogglingly shallow. The need for collimation and orthogonality are extreme. All of these challenges are very real. Those who master them get great Hyperstar results. Those who don't get a mess. A Hyperstar is about as intolerant of error as it gets and it is based on a mass production scope. That combination would give me pause. It is why I don't have one, though on paper it would suit me down to the ground for getting fast results for guests. I just don't believe in fairies, I guess, but perhaps I should?

Atik are launching a new Hyperstar friendly range and I rate their cameras highly - I have five of them.

How does the price of a Hyperstar, all done and dusted, compare with a Takahashi FSQ85? If they are in the same ball park I'd take the Tak any day. It just works.

Olly

PS Forget counting pixels in astro imaging. In fact it isn't a bad idea to forget it in daytime photography either since the mnaufacturers have cottoned onto it as a way of making your present camera 'obsolete' so you'll replace it. In astro CCD you first and foremost need signal. Big sensitive pixels are good for this. Wnen you have lots of signal you can sharpen and push contrast so that you can bring out fine detail. If you have lots of noisy little pixels you'll have to blur in order to get the noise down.

[AlistairHowie]

Thanks, Olly - just the sort of reality check I was looking for! All in cost, as best I can figure for my proposed system would be approx (all in sterling):

CPC 800 - £1,500

Hyperstar 3 - £700

Microfocuser (inc temperature compensaton) - £500

Maxim DL Pro - £325

CCD - £1,000 guesstimate

Call it £4k all in, versus what Google tells me is £3,450 for the FSQ85 scope only.

Now, in a sense, all this is academic at the moment as I haven't even purchased my first 'scope yet ... I'm just trying to keep an eye on the future and make sure as best I can that what I buy now won't preclude particular activities in the future.

I like the CPC for all the obvious reasons - quick fork mounted alt/az set-up for visual observing, which lets face it is all I'm going to be doing for the first year anyway ... probably longer. I could then see me getting started with imaging, but of course that's when I need to open my wallet up ... costs might actually be prohibitive anyway. It was a useful exercise just listing out the full costs of the above. The more I read, the more I see that I need ANOTHER piece of kit. And all I was wanting was to take some nice pics and put them up on the wall in my house. I guess that if I wait long enough, prices will fall ...

[BlueAstra]

You're doing the right thing. Giving a lot of thought to it now will save ££££ later. If you are even faintly thinking of imaging then an equatorial mount must be a serious contender. In my case I got nexstar 8se as a first scope alt-az visual system with the knowledge that I could demount the tube to use on an equatorial mount later when I wanted to move on to imaging. I later got an eq6 and put the 8se OTA onto it. I also got a refractor and use it on the same mount. The 8se mount now rarely get used since I spend most of my time imaging with the eq6.

[AlistairHowie]

My thinking risks coming full circle here, unless I'm carefull! I was previously looking at a Celestron 11" OTA on a CG5 mount ... which I know is inadequate for any photography and on the limit for visual, but FLO has them on offer at £1,595 at the moment, and having aperture fever already I reckoned that would be a good starter scope with the mount, at that price, basically thrown in for free. Add in a decent mount a year of so down the line and I'd be set for imaging ... or so I thought.

But then I saw all the comments about the CGEM mount being a coffee grinder, and the NEQ6 bolts bending, the idler wheel rattling at the start and end of fast slewing, etc which got me terribly depressed about the apparent quality of affordable EQ mounts. Now, I have absolutely no experience of any of these mounts - my research is limited to Google and Youtube - but having researched a heck of a lot over the past few weeks, I really haven't found anybody with anything bad to say about the CPC mounts. OK, the combined fork and OTA is large and heavy, but all agree that the well placed handles mitigate the weight to a large extent. Combine all of the above with the lure of alt/az, unguided imaging with Hyperstar and that's how I got into this predicament in the first place!

I then see amazing images from Olly and others with small aperture refractors and I just get really confused ... but I'm guessing that the tradeoff there is that although they take great images, I would see less DSOs compared to a larger SCT?

Now I'm really confused .... maybe I should just switch to Solar observing ... far warmer.

[Earl]

If Imaging is your objective, the best starter setup has to be a 80mm refractor faster the better, and a minimum of a HEQ5 with a ST80 with a QHY5 as a guide scope and then budget around £1500-2000 for a good ccd, filter wheel and filters.

With DSO imaging its all about the Fast small scopes.

[ollypenrice]

What usually emerges on these threads is that a small fast refractor for imaging and a big Dob for visual is the best compromise of all...

I have 2 EQ sixes, they make funny noises, but they work fine, certainly at shorter focal lengths. If you want to image DS at longer FLs then you are likely to want a very serious mount. I will soon be trying a Mesu 2 which, on paper, has the best accuracy/payload/cost ratio of them all and by a country mile. Watch this space.

The mount will not be here for review but will belong to a guest.

Olly

[Merlin66]

A C11 sits nicely on a NEQ6 mount....The NEQ6 may not be the absolute best mount, but it certainly does the job and is well supported by many forum groups.

For DSO imaging I agree with Olly.

[AlistairHowie]

Okay, I don't think I am a million miles away from the right decision. The fact is that I don't have limitless funds, so two scopes are out of the question. I'm completely new to this hobby so simplicity, speed of setup and portability are important. I don't definitely want to get into serious imaging, only time will tell where the hobby takes me. So on this basis a CPC seems like a good compromise. Use it for visual, try planetary imaging down the line, learn as much as I can and then either sell it all and go the apo route or keep it and try Hyperstar for an extra £2-2.5k (gulp, not cheap this hobby is it?).

[ollypenrice]

(gulp, not cheap this hobby is it?).

...marginally cheaper than motor racing...

Olly

[AlistairHowie]

Not really much consolation that ...