Seeing Spirals

[monkey_coral]

I ave been looking around te net at the absolutey MA-HU-SIVE orion 50" monster dobs and it got me wondering what size apature to you need to start seeing spiral structures of some galaxies?

Is it even possible in a 14" dob with dark skies?

[Moonshane]

I have easily seen spiral structure with direct vision in M33 and M51 at dark sites in a 12" dob.

[robbieince]

As an example i can see the spiral arms of m51 in my light polluted skies on a good night with my 12 inch flextube dob.

If I use filters such as a Lumicon uhc I can see them more readily too.

Others are just as clear but most are just smudges.

Dark skies obviously help - when at kielder the views are loads better. With a 14 inch you should see some spirals pretty comfortably.

Regards

Rob

[John]

I've seen very clear spiral structure in M51 with a 12" scope under dark skies. I reckon my 10" might be able to show this too, again under excellent and dark skies.

[RikM]

I have had hints at spirals in M51 with my 10", but I could be using averted imagination since I know they are there. I don't think so though, because I sketched it, then checked a book image and I had drawn it the right way round.

[swamp thing]

Hi

TBH seeing Galactic structure and detail is like planetary observing: it's a skill that has to be learned.

A quick cursory glance at a Galaxy will just reveal a faint fuzzy (hence the name), but a skillfull detailed study will reveal a great deal more even with a smaller aperture.

Eg M31 through a 10": fuzzy halo with brighter almost stellar core and possibly 1 dust lane, with a quick glance.

With a detailed study at various mags: some of the Globular clusters and star birth areas can be made out. Admittedly this requires some research on where these features are but they are all observable with quite modest scopes.

Doing some research on your target can be very rewarding on the brighter Galaxies. You'll be surprised what detail can be readily seen if you are prepared to look.

I recently was observing M33 with another forum member who was using the same size scope as me from an excellent site. He could not see the spiral structure in it. I told him what to look for and where to look and hey presto he could see the spiral arms and the bright star birth areas within.

So do some research away from the eyepiece, it can be immensely rewarding when you do observe.

A quick glance at any object never reveals all that can be seen take your time, really study each and every object.

Be sure you have really observed an object not just glanced at it.

A detailed study of an object may take several nights and many hours but at the end of it you'll really learn what you and your scope can achieve.

In some ways very similar to imaging a quick exposure reveals little. More time equals more data.

Good hunting and clear skies

Regards Steve

[monkey_coral]

Interesting and exciting to hear. When I am one day not restricted to views from my balcony and can set up in a garden it is nice to see that my wait for a bigger scope will worth it. I have a 6" SCT and from my heavily light polluted site can just about make out a feint greenish smudge that is Uranus however anything deep sky Except M13 and M11 are pretty much a write off. M11 is probably my favourite object in the sky.

By the sound of things I will be looking at a 14" scope. Has anyone tried anything any bigger than that? Did it make any difference? The jump in money above 16" seems huge and I would want to see some significant improve to consider investing o those levels.

[swamp thing]

By the sound of things I will be looking at a 14" scope. Has anyone tried anything any bigger than that? .

Out of the replies you have already had myself and Moonshane are both currently using 16" scopes.

These can reveal considerable detail and structure.

Regards Steve

[Moonshane]

Hi

TBH seeing Galactic structure and detail is like planetary observing: it's a skill that has to be learned.

A quick cursory glance at a Galaxy will just reveal a faint fuzzy (hence the name), but a skillfull detailed study will reveal a great deal more even with a smaller aperture.

Eg M31 through a 10": fuzzy halo with brighter almost stellar core and possibly 1 dust lane, with a quick glance.

With a detailed study at various mags: some of the Globular clusters and star birth areas can be made out. Admittedly this requires some research on where these features are but they are all observable with quite modest scopes.

Doing some research on your target can be very rewarding on the brighter Galaxies. You'll be surprised what detail can be readily seen if you are prepared to look.

I recently was observing M33 with another forum member who was using the same size scope as me from an excellent site. He could not see the spiral structure in it. I told him what to look for and where to look and hey presto he could see the spiral arms and the bright star birth areas within.

So do some research away from the eyepiece, it can be immensely rewarding when you do observe.

A quick glance at any object never reveals all that can be seen take your time, really study each and every object.

Be sure you have really observed an object not just glanced at it.

A detailed study of an object may take several nights and many hours but at the end of it you'll really learn what you and your scope can achieve.

In some ways very similar to imaging a quick exposure reveals little. More time equals more data.

Good hunting and clear skies

Regards Steve

wow Steve

I can see why you go to dark sites!

cannot wait to get out properly with my 16"

[monkey_coral]

Hi

TBH seeing Galactic structure and detail is like planetary observing: it's a skill that has to be learned.

A quick cursory glance at a Galaxy will just reveal a faint fuzzy (hence the name), but a skillfull detailed study will reveal a great deal more even with a smaller aperture.

Eg M31 through a 10": fuzzy halo with brighter almost stellar core and possibly 1 dust lane, with a quick glance.

With a detailed study at various mags: some of the Globular clusters and star birth areas can be made out. Admittedly this requires some research on where these features are but they are all observable with quite modest scopes.

Doing some research on your target can be very rewarding on the brighter Galaxies. You'll be surprised what detail can be readily seen if you are prepared to look.

I recently was observing M33 with another forum member who was using the same size scope as me from an excellent site. He could not see the spiral structure in it. I told him what to look for and where to look and hey presto he could see the spiral arms and the bright star birth areas within.

So do some research away from the eyepiece, it can be immensely rewarding when you do observe.

A quick glance at any object never reveals all that can be seen take your time, really study each and every object.

Be sure you have really observed an object not just glanced at it.

A detailed study of an object may take several nights and many hours but at the end of it you'll really learn what you and your scope can achieve.

In some ways very similar to imaging a quick exposure reveals little. More time equals more data.

Good hunting and clear skies

Regards Steve

Can you make out that level of detail from sites near where you are? I notice you are in Sutton which is preety near to me.

[umadog]

A friend of mine has seen spiral structure in M33 with his 8". I can easily see it in M51, M33, and M101 from a dark site with my 10". I've seen the most prominent dust-lane in M31 through an 85 mm when it's dark. Masses of detail in >10" on M31. Dust lanes in NGC 891 and the sombrero are pretty easy also when it's dark. Basically, you don't need a big scope you need dark skies.

SwampThing is bang on, though. The key is knowing what the stuff looks like. In the past I've had some of the features in the eyepiece and not seen them because I wasn't looking for them. This is why some beginners get disappointed. They don't realise what they're seeing.

I'm not even sure if Orion is selling those 50" scopes. I think there was some problem with tube flexure. Could be wrong, though. Either way, if I were buying something that big I wouldn't be doing so from Orion...

[John]

By the sound of things I will be looking at a 14" scope. Has anyone tried anything any bigger than that? Did it make any difference? The jump in money above 16" seems huge and I would want to see some significant improve to consider investing o those levels.

I tried a 20" scope under dark skies last year. I only had a few minutes with it and M51 was my target of choice. The view was breathtaking and the full and detailed spiral structure was very much "in your face" - no need for averted vision or even to concentrate - it was all there just like a photo, except better

[RikM]

My 10" is the biggest scope I can cope with at the moment but my brother-in-law has a 16" and it's magic. If I had more space to store one and was able to drive out to a dark site more regularly, I would have no hesitation in getting one.

[RikM]

A quick glance at any object never reveals all that can be seen take your time, really study each and every object.

Be sure you have really observed an object not just glanced at it.

A detailed study of an object may take several nights and many hours but at the end of it you'll really learn what you and your scope can achieve.

In some ways very similar to imaging a quick exposure reveals little. More time equals more data.

Good hunting and clear skies

Regards Steve

This is so true.

One of the reasons I sketch is that it gives me an excuse to spend enough time at the eyepiece to fully appreciate what I am seeing. As you spend more time observing you become immersed in the view and extra detail starts to come out. You really can see more.

A comfortable viewing position and eyepieces that suit your eyes really help with this as well.

[swamp thing]

Can you make out that level of detail from sites near where you are? I notice you are in Sutton which is preety near to me.

From Sutton.........you'd be lucky to see M31:D

Conditions there are atrocious. I never use the scope from anywhere near where I live.

The nearest I set up is close to Dorking.

Regards Steve