Eyepieces for William Optics Zenithstar 66ED (Petzval)

[LDUNN1]

Mark, many thx for the welcome......& also for the helpful advice - that does indeed sound like something to look out for.......I might be just a little disappointed if I bought an expensive quality EP only to find I can't focus it! ;-)

.....does the 2" diag make a big differnece to the light path length vs the 1.25" diag???

The Hyperion's are on my shortlist - their flexibility appeals, & that is of the fixed FL type....however the zoom is not going to give me the Mag that I'd ideally like - but that could be inexperience on my part.......I was kind of looking for a significant step up in Mag from my 15x70 binos......the 8-24 would be 17-50x - I was kind of thinking more along the lines of 50-100x (taking max mag rule of thumb of 50x per inch would give 130x as practical limit for this 'scope, so 100x initially felt 'safe' to me, but through the comments here, I'm not so sure now).

Mark, I note you have the 3-6mm Nagler zoom & the 8mm Ethos - have you tried these in the 66ED???? both are on my shortlist - would love to hear you comments specifically on those two - does the 3-6mm Nag push the 66ED too far in terms of Mag? Does the Ethos give the 'wow' factor on the 66ED that I've read about, like looking into a huge pool?? .....I also note you have the hyperion zoom (also on the short list) which is the one you have initially recommended on the 66.......mmmmmm

Russ, as posted in the groups page (which I have now found!) I would really appreciate trying some different EP's out on my scope before committing to a purchase - that would be great, thx! fingers crossed on the weather front now!

[Mark at Beaufort]

I must admit I have not really tried the 8mm Ethos or the Nagler zoom on the SD66 but if we get a clear spell over the next few nights I will give it a try and report back to you.

The focal length of the SD66 is 388mm against your 400mm for the Petzval which will be about 130x ish on both scopes. I will view Saturn and some nice doubles to give you a better idea of the Nagler. The 8mm Ethos is 48x and a 2 degrees FOV so I will find a few cluster to test this out.

Lets hope for some clear skies.

Mark

[LDUNN1]

Mark - I'd really appreciate you doing that for me......you never know, it may even be a revelation for you too? ;-)

.....I'm thinking that the very wide AFoV with the Ethos, will make targets easier to find in the scope at higher mags than other significantly narrower AFoV EP's - which may lessen the need to swop EP's somewhat &/or permit a greater spread between EP's FL wise.

......if you could throw your recommendation of the Hyperion zoom into that test, that would be great too. Saturn will probably be the most meaningful test for me as every scope I've looked through over the past couple of months since I started this astro interest seems to have been stuck to Saturn.......I understand it has been a good target recently. The doubles & clusters will probably not mean much to me in isolation as I have not viewed many or any at all, so I'll be totally reliant on your back-2-back comments.......I can't wait to hear teh out come now - will be very interesting for me!!! Many thx in advance!!!

[Mark at Beaufort]

I thought you might appreciate some photos showing the different sizes of the EPs on the scope - Nagler zoom and 8mm Ethos.

To test the quality of the scope at different magnifications I tested the system on the Sun. There are a number of good sunspots at the moment and I studied 1224 and 1226.

In the 8mm Ethos the FOV is excellent (2 degrees+) - image very sharp. Even though the FOV in the Nagler is much less at 6mm the view of each sunspot is very good. Still good at 5mm but starting to go soft at 4mm and 3mm although fine detail could still be made out.

The view of the Sun with the Hyperion zoom is very good especially at 12mm and 8mm. In fact ignoring the extra FOV of the Ethos there is not that much difference with the view.

The two photos of the Nagler shows it at 6mm and 3mm.

Mark

[LDUNN1]

Wow Mark - that is fantastic - & fast too - really appreciate all you have done for me on this - lots of great feedback there for me to use.

So, I think from your observations that we can maybe put a pencil line through the Ethos 3.7mm & Nagler 3-6mm zoom on the grounds that anything 4mm or less is going soft......so maybe 5mm is the limit.....

Which puts me at the Ethos 6mm or Hyperion 5mm at the max end......I think that backs up Russ's comment at the start of this thread on what he thought the max realistic mag was of his ZS......I'll have to refer back to the earlier posts when I am done typing here.

......or of course, I could go for the hyperion zoom for much greater range & flexibility, albeit at the reduced mag that it offers.........mmmmm tricky choice!

thx for the pics - I agree with others that the Ethos doesn't 'suit' the scope visually, but I am not too concerned at what the kit looks like in the dark, but what the views are like through it........all the comments on the huge views that the Ethos provide is quite a draw to me.......but is it worth paying 3 imes as much for vs the Hyperion......when you have no experience, it is difficult to call!

.....I think your post has definatly tightened up the short list somewhat......I don't see the sense in spending a fortune to get a soft view......

.....What this also confirms is that you could bring them to focus too which is good news.

Much appreciate your time on this Mark - Thx......

[Mark at Beaufort]

I like Hyperion EPs and in the past had the 5mm, 8mm, 17mm and the 24mm. I only sold them because I had the fast Dob and I wanted the quality extra FOV.

The Hyperion zoom is good quality and it is very good on the WO66 and my 4" Astro Tech APO frac.

I still think you would be better with the zoom and maybe a higher mag - Hyperion 5mm with some fine tuning rings - link - First Light Optics - Baader Hyperion Finetuning Ring

The one thing that you might want to consider is a wider field EP because the 24mm end of the zoom is slightly narrow. Possibly the 24mm Panoptic with its 68 degree field is one of the better EPs although to go wider you need 2" EP which goes back to the query on the diagonal.

I will still do a review on Saturn etc but I still think that 5mm is going to be the highest that you can go and this only on certain occasions.

Mark

[Moonshane]

they do look gorgeous the WO scopes.

definitely on my buy at some point list.

[Rossco72]

On a scope like the 66, and mine is a slightly different f7 triplet, the zoom is both convenient and practical. You will be able to use all of the available lengths and for those 1 or 2 nights a year when you can use a 5mm, get a decent Plossl for £30 or so and for the widefield stuff pick up a 35-40mm EP and you will be covered.

However once the Zoom is in there, I doubt you'll use anything else with any frequency as 8-24 will cover 80-90% of your needs. If you added a good quality Balow, this could also cover 4-12mm and do away with the need for a seperate high power Plossl.

Cheers

[LDUNN1]

Mark, referring to the hyperions, you say "I only sold them because I had the fast Dob and I wanted the quality extra FOV" ......was that swopping them for the Naglers or the Ethos?.......I really don't want to end up buying an EP, that I then later upgrade.....I'd rather bite the bullet now & buy once....the Ethos seem to represent the pinnacle of the EP world......but also recognise that not having any EP's of note, & not knowing anything, then maybe a zoom would be good as over time I'd be able to better gauge what length I end up using most.

I'm sure I'll go for a WO 2" diag now, so that wider 24mm should not be an issue.....but I guess I am not convinced yet on the attraction of the lower mag end, when I have binos that seem to cover that.....maybe I'm missing the true attraction of the wide views here.....I know my excitment of actually being able to see a recognisable Saturn at the high mag end was substancially greater than the low mag wide field views I've had so far.

there does seem to be quite a stong leaning towards the zoom here - taking note of Staurts comments again.....I think I am going to have to listen to the multi voice experience coming from you guys here........there seems to be a lot of love for that hyper zoom.....

Shane, I know I have little to measure the WO against, but it feels wonderful - & the paint job in Marks photos looks brilliant (mine is a simple black gloss, but it feels silky smooth)......I have one of the bigger WO's triplets on my short list to use as an imaging scope - once I think my imaging skills are approaching the limit of my camera lens that I am currently using (an old manual Olympus Zuiko 600mm f6.5 mounted on a canon 5d2).....rather handily, the time it is taking me to get my imaging skills up is also permitting the funds to build up too for such a purchase!

Mark, I look fwd to your comments on viewing Saturn if you get time (& clear skies) to do them.

I thank you all once again for your fantastic support!

[John]

...the Ethos seem to represent the pinnacle of the EP world......

They are very good indeed (I have 3 of them) but they are not necessarily the pinnacle for all purposes, if we are talking about ultimates here.

For planetary / high power use I reckon the ultimate would be the Zeiss Ortho's or ZAO's as they are known. Small fields of view, tight eye relief and a price tag of around $600+ each - if you can find any !.

FWIW you can match the Ethos with the Pentax XW's IMHO and the Baader Genuine Orthoscopics albeit without the immense field of view and, in the latter, again with tight eye relief.

BGO's cost less than 25% as much as an Ethos.

Choices, choices

[Mark at Beaufort]

My involvement with Astronomy goes back to the mid 1960s when I had a 6" Newt. In 1999 I bought a Celestron 5" Nexstar SCT and improved my EP collection by buying Antares W70 EPs because I liked the extra FOV. I then bought a Hyperion 17mm EP which I liked so much I purchased the other Hyperions selling my collection of Antares EPs.

Along the way, since 1999, I have bought other scopes 6" SCT, 6" f/8 frac, WO SD66, 4" APO frac then the 10" Dob. I keeped the Hyperions until I bought the Dob and then I obtained the 13mm Ethos S/H from this forum. I since bought the 8mm Ethos, then sold a Panoptic 35mm to obtained the Nagler 26mm. I only bought the Nagler zoom this year after selling a 5mm Nagler.

With having so many good EPs why did I purchase the Hyperion zoom? In my view it was the perfect EP for my PST which I took to view an Annular eclipse and a Total eclipse in 2005 and 2006.

Sorry about the long story but it gives you an idea. Trouble with any hobby you keep improving and you want the kit to match.

Regards

Mark

[LDUNN1]

John, I may have given the wrong impression - I am not necessarily after the 'ultimate' EP in terms of all out image quality, although good IQ is a requirement obviously (I have cheap examples at the other end of the spectrum already ;-) ).

By 'Ultimate' I was really referring to the combo of hi-ish mags & wide views.......it sounds like an ideal combination.....the ultimate maybe? But thank you for correcting me that the Ethos was not necesarily giving the ultimate in IQ.

I read a few reviews of the Ethos where the writers talk of an almost 'being there' type experience - looking through a port hole of a spaceship type experience......that sounds appealing.....

One of my cheap EP's gives what I believe maybe a narrow view & I don't like it - very sensitive to where you place your eye & then its like looking at something down a bit of a tunnel. I'm looking for something that will give more of a 'wow' factor......so when my wife takes a peek through it she is going to be amazed & therefore be more readily positive to further expense on astro kit in the future ;-)

Mark, thx for your astro background, I started mid Feb ;-) ......bit later in life maybe so I need to take some short cuts to catch up - hence I am looking to skip the gradual imrpovements to EP & start with something that will see me through for many years to come - unless there is a major technological break through of some kind that renders all before obsolete.

What was your driver to sell the hyperions when you got your dob? - do the Ethos work so much better with the dob, or the hypers not work so well with it?

"you keep improving and you want the kit to match" I can relate to that - I've windsurfed for approaching 30 years, & am now quite fussy over the kit I sail - experience makes you quite critical. I'm trying to avoid having a collection of 'old' unused kit on the astro side by buying quality items first time round (I have a garage full of old windsurf kit as it is) To be fair, I suspect that windsurf kit has developed at a far greater pace than astro kit has over the same period - its almost been revolutionary in windsurfing over the past 15 years where as I suspect its been more evolutionary in the astro world - with maybe the exception of imaging, which has gone through revolutionary type changes with the coming of digital.

[John]

John, I may have given the wrong impression - I am not necessarily after the 'ultimate' EP in terms of all out image quality, although good IQ is a requirement obviously (I have cheap examples at the other end of the spectrum already ;-) ).

By 'Ultimate' I was really referring to the combo of hi-ish mags & wide views.......it sounds like an ideal combination.....the ultimate maybe? But thank you for correcting me that the Ethos was not necesarily giving the ultimate in IQ.

I read a few reviews of the Ethos where the writers talk of an almost 'being there' type experience - looking through a port hole of a spaceship type experience......that sounds appealing.....

....

I was probably being pendantic - the Ethe (which I think is the correct plural of Ethos) are superb eyepieces and there is much more to them than just the ultra wide field of view.

Having tried many eyepiece types over the 30+ years I've been in the hobby I've ended up with 2 sets of eyepieces that perform excellently, an ultra-wide set that comprises Naglers and Ethe and a "minimal glass" set which comprises Baader Genuine Orthoscopics and Tele Vue Plossls. To some extent the choice over which set I use depends on my mood - the orthoscopics with their tight eye relief and narrow fields of view do present more challenges in use of course

Quality eyepieces like these work well in any scope so are generally future proof. That's good because I tend to change scopes reasonably frequently

If I were to move over from Tele Vue / Baader to another premium brand exclusively it would be the Pentax XW range. Although they are wide angle rather than ultra wide, their large eye lenses, generous eye relief make them very comfortable to use (more so than the Naglers / Ethe) and their build and optical quality are top drawer

At these levels the choice starts to become one of personal preference as much as anything

[Mark at Beaufort]

I can appreciate your statement about windsurfing. Although I am now retired my other main hobby is photography and together with two friends we set up a website. I make this point because Dave, who is in his 70s, goes windsurfing at Poole throughout the summer and I know he has recently spent a fortune buying new boards and sail.

To get back to astronomy I have read and admired the reviews of Ethos EPs for some time and when a 13mm became available S/H on this forum I had to buy it. I just loved the quality and the wide view so I bought a new 8mm Ethos as well. Although I bought a 35mm Panoptic about the same time I just wanted the Nagler 82 degree FOV so I obtained the 26mm.

To answer your question if my Dob is perfectly collimated then the view with the Ethos is sharp across the whole FOV but with the Hyperion you get some coma although in saying that its not too bad.

I don't use a goto but star hop to each target DSO and with the Nagler and Ethos this is so much easier.

Hope this helps.

Mark

[Rossco72]

If money is not a consideration then this is the best zoom out there in my opinion and I have one and previously had a Baader Zoom (also very good)

First Light Optics - Pentax XL 8-24mm Zoom

The thing for me is you are using a 66 scope. In time with a larger fast dob then maybe the TV Ethos range would be more useful but there is always scope for a good zoom and for "grab and go" it is ideal.

When your 66 becomes your travel scope or grab and go you will appreciate the practicalities of a quality zoom.

[LDUNN1]

......well guys, I can't say that 'money is no object' exactly, BUT I'd much prefer to go without something a few months while I save up for the good quality item, rather than buy something that 'will do' now.......the ZS 66ED was bought on price grounds however - it just seemed too cheap to pass up, but seemed to have a reasonable 'quality' reputation, & I don't envisage selling it as I move onward & upward in time - it is more versatile than that to me - guidescope, grab 'n' go, travel - whatever - currently it will be my only 'proper' viewing scope.

John - I'm glad I now know what the plural is - been struggling with that one! ;-) I'll add the Pentax XW's to the short list after what you wrote - they sound potentially better than the 'Ethe'

Mark - glad you could relate to the windsurfing comment - funny you should mention photography, as I have had a long interest in this field too & could have used that analogy too. You have confirmed my thoughts that the wider fields make finidng your targets easier with such EP's - while my main kit is goto, it will be tied up doing imaging duties, so the visual scope is going to be manually controlled but someone who struggles to do a 3 star alignment on the goto scope! ;-) - I need every bit of help I can get right now ;-) Your comment about going for teh Ethos when you got a fast dob falls inline with what Stuart commented on - wonder if his comment was a nod towards your post.

Stuart, are you implying that the Ethos range it not suited to a 66mm refractor? but better suited to a large fast dob? I can understand the logic that a zoom would suit a grab n go - & I think that I am probably going to get one after reading all the great advice on here - if nothing else, it will cover a large number of bases (8-24mm) which will help me better understand & appreciate what FL EP's I want/need.......& if I want to travel light, I'll just take the zoom. ie, even if I add further EP's in teh 8-24 range at a later date, a zoom may still be a useful tool to have in the bag.

I am tempted with a second EP in the ultra wide hi mag category - maybe around the 4.5-6mm range - logic being that the wider AFoV at hi mags will help me find the target, AND it will give me an ultra wide EP to sample & relate to the glowing reviews.

......now the zoom choice was pretty straight forward - just the hyperion up until your post.....now I have to consider the XL too ;-)

[Mark at Beaufort]

Last night was clear and although my main aim was to view DSOs from the Herschel 400 list I also set up the WO SD66.

I viewed Saturn with the Nagler zoom and I was pleased with the results - in fact the view with the 4mm and 3mm element was very good. Titan was very easy although I could not really detect the other Moons. The rings very clear although I could not see the Cassini division but I was not expecting that with such a small scope.

Tested the system on some doubles - Castor and Adhafera easily split. Porrima no go but again not expected.

Put on the 8mm Ethos fantastic FOV. Viewed M4, M57 and M13 all very nice.

Well there you go more difficult decisions but I must admit it was a clear and transparent night. I bagged 9 more DSOs from Coma Berenices.

Mark

[John]

... I'll add the Pentax XW's to the short list after what you wrote - they sound potentially better than the 'Ethe'......

Not better, different. Above a certain performance level (I won't say price because the Baader Genuine Orthos don't cost a lot but deliver premium performance) it's a matter of deciding what characteristics will work best for you.

There are quite a few observers who don't want or like ultra wide fields of view so Naglers / Ethe don't appeal to them one bit.

I guess this is why eyepiece choice is a very personal thing

[LDUNN1]

.......well, I have at least ordered up the WO 2" diagonal from FLO this morning - so I'm (slowly) getting somewhere ;-) ......I went for this one:-

First Light Optics - William Optics 2" Dielectric Diagonal with SCT Adaptor

......will hopefully be nice on a WO scope too.

.....so, back to the EP's......

Mark, I really appreciate you taking time out to view 'odd' EP requests through a tiddly scope ;-) - many thx.

......think that has just muddied the waters again, hasn't it? ;-)

.....so the little 66 took the Nagler zoom at the 3mm end ok - suggesting that the seeing conditions may have impacted the prior test you commented on.....guess that is still a risk - no point buying an EP if I can only use it on 'perfect' nights which happen rarely.......I guess this is where a hi mag zoom comes into its own - you can zoom to the best the conditions permit......which kind of brings the Nagler zoom back into play.

.....& then there is your "Ethos fantastic FOV" comment......

.....oh boy, this is a tougher decision than I every thought it was going to be!!! ;-)

John, that is interesting to hear that there are observers that don't like the ultra wide views, first I've read of that - what is there not too like? they sound like the best of both worlds to me, being hi mag & wide AFoV's.

.....I'm going to have to read about that Pentax zoom - have not done so yet - maybe this evening......but I am not sure I am wanting to pay 4 times the price for just 'different' & not 'better'.......but I guess the nature of the 'difference' is why some would deem them 'better' & others not.....

Those hypers do sound something of a bargin though.

.......I can see I'm going to end up with Marks EP collection: just get them all - Ethos, Nagler & Hyper - good plan Mark ;-)

[John]

...John, that is interesting to hear that there are observers that don't like the ultra wide views, first I've read of that - what is there not too like? they sound like the best of both worlds to me, being hi mag & wide AFoV's....

You will find lots of people who prefer a 68 degree field of view over 82, 100 or 110 degrees. For some, not being able to see the edges of the field of view without moving your eyeball or tilting your head is uncomfortable or unpleasant, some even complain of feeling a little nausea.

My personal preference is for ultra wide as it has been for some time. Partly this is driven by the fact that I use undriven, alt-azimuth mounts for my scopes and the wide field of view means a bit less "nudging".

As I said, eyepiece choices are a very personal thing.

In an ideal world you would try out a few different types before "splashing the cash" of course

If you buy good quality used eyepieces you can usually sell them again with little or no loss if you decide they are not for you

[LDUNN1]

John - "try out a few different types before "splashing the cash" is exactly what I am hoping to do at the next gathering I go to.....ideally I'll manage to resist the temptation to buy an EP sooner rather than later & that way I might be able to try out a few more EP's first to get a better idea of what I want.......would be good to meet up with my usual group as I know I liked someones eyepiece alot.....just don't know who or which one!!!

In one of the eyepieces I looked through, I did note my eyeball darting around to take in all of the view it was so huge - but this did not make me feel sick in the slightest......but then it was only a quick go......

.......I note that Mark seems to be getting out viewing better that the weather in my area is permiting currently - I think I've been clouded in since last Tuesday!

[Mark at Beaufort]

.......I note that Mark seems to be getting out viewing better that the weather in my area is permiting currently - I think I've been clouded in since last Tuesday!

Spent the afternoon viewing the Sun with the PST and the WO SD66. Used the 13mm Ethos and thousand oaks filter. The views of the various sunspots were so sharp.

Mark

[LDUNN1]

Sounds like you had a good afternoon Mark.......clouds have finally broken here......but I've been at work all day & don't have a solar filter anyway......

......sounds like the Ethos on the 66 is good then.....did you chose that EP as part of the feedback to me or was it a natural choice for solar????? ......would you have chosen the Ethos for that task prior to me posting this question? ......now you have tried it once, are you likely to return to that EP again on the 66 for solar work? if not, which EP would be your natural choice?

[John]

......sounds like the Ethos on the 66 is good then.....did you chose that EP as part of the feedback to me or was it a natural choice for solar????? ......would you have chosen the Ethos for that task prior to me posting this question? ......now you have tried it once, are you likely to return to that EP again on the 66 for solar work? if not, which EP would be your natural choice?

This sounds like ones of those telephone questionnaires

[Mark at Beaufort]

......sounds like the Ethos on the 66 is good then.....did you chose that EP as part of the feedback to me or was it a natural choice for solar????? ......would you have chosen the Ethos for that task prior to me posting this question? ......now you have tried it once, are you likely to return to that EP again on the 66 for solar work? if not, which EP would be your natural choice?

To be honest no. I had both scopes side by side. The Hyperion zoom was in the PST and the 13mm Ethos in the William Optics. When viewing the Sun I usually use the PST and the Hyperion zoom. The reasons I had both scopes out today was the amount of sunspots so I needed the extra EP.

Mark