Eyepieces for William Optics Zenithstar 66ED (Petzval)

[LDUNN1]

;-0 @John - yes I suppose it does......I'm so sorry guys.....get a bit carried away trying to learn all this new stuff & have so many questions.......it must be frustrating to you experinced guys that probably answer loads of these types of questions......it must be enough to drive you away from sites like this! I'll try & curtail my questions.....you have all answered loads on this subject & been really great in doing so.......I've got a good diagonal coming now, so hopefully this wkend I might be able to try some EP's out......I'll have to take some cookies along to the obo on Saturday I think inorder to bribe a borrow or two of some EP's.......

Mark, I heard that there was an aurora alert at amber in the past day or two - so can only guess that sunspot activity must be wild right now......sounds like something I'll have ot investigate in due course......but I wont ask any 'how to view solar' questions here right now ;-)

[John]

No problem about asking questions - please don't take my comment in any way as a criticism - it was a gentle joke that's all

The eyepiece world is probably more confusing than the scope world in some ways and I'm not surprised that the sheer variety of options and prices take newcomers to the hobby rather aback !

Trying a few eyepieces out is a great idea - cookies / jaffa cakes are usually considered good "payment"

[LDUNN1]

....no criticism taken at all John - I read back my mail after your comment & was a bit horrified how it came across to be honest! & laughed at your observation too....then quickly moved to put out a mail to try & take the sting out of my last post!

....I have been been looking out at 2nd hand EP's as i think you suggested, and I've noticed in general that good astro gear tends to fetch close to its new price anyway.

....it is not as if these quality EP's are £50 a pop either where you could afford to make the odd error - which compounds the issue somewhat......but I suppose, as the 2nd hand values hold up well, that you can probably sell that £400 EP & lose less than £100 if you got it wrong.

.....I'm going to do my best to old off any purchase until at least the weekend where hopefully I might get to try a few EP's to get a better idea......failing that, then I think next week I'm going to play it 'safe' & just get the Hyper zoom & take it form there.......I am figuring that the hyper zoom should be relevant to have in an EP line up pretty much no matter what other EP's I add to the collection.

When I first started getting into this astro lark, back in Feb/Mar time, I started reading up about 'scopes in general, looking for what to buy, & came to the conclusion quite quickly that there are so many types of scopes out there, so many different sizes, costs, brands & models, AND I was not really sure what I wanted to see with it, that I realised I was not ready for the 'scope purchase......but coming into this interest with a photo background, I decided to just use my camera kit for a while - but recognised I needed a motorised mount to extend my options, so i started reading about mounts - & luckily enough, my options dropped out very fast - I had 3 on a short shortlist, & one of those was lined through almost immediately, which left me to chose between HEQ5 Pro & NEQ6 - I went for the 6 purely for the increased payload & wanting to safe guard myself for an future 'OTA purchase which I knew was wide open.

I've been playing at imaging with the nEQ6 since Mar & its proving very good, a great challenge & very rewarding (& frustrating too!).

I had no idea that EP's would be as bad a 'scopes to choose!.....& I had no idea that EP's can have such dramatic differences & characters.

I've done some more googling & reading tonight - & I found a good reveiw of Ethos vs Nagler vs an UW Meade - & the reviewer described a 'kidney bean' effect that was quite bad on one of the EP's - I have heard of this effect before, but not read a good description of it until now - one of the cheap EP's I have has this effect in spades & i hate it & want to avoid it at (nearly) all costs......& interestingly the reviewer commented that the Ethos had no kidney bean effect at all that he could detect........the plot thickens......

[Mark at Beaufort]

I don't mind you asking questions, better that than buying something that you regret.

John and I have been doing observational astronomy for many years so we have gained a little knowledge in that time

Mark

[LDUNN1]

Thanks Mark......I do feel that I have taken up alot of your & John's time on this though.

......It is interesting to me that looking at both of your EP collection listed in your sign-off signature that you both have Naglar, Ethos & Baader.......I must be on the right tracks considering my pick from these!

[LDUNN1]

UPDATE:-

The WO SCT 2" diagonal arrived from FLO this evening - wow - its big (vs the cheap 1.25" units that came with my ST80 guidescope.

It feels very nicely made, the SCT adapter is not quite in the same class as the str8 SCT 2" & 1.25" adapters that came with the scope though, still good, but not quite as nice.

......I can only use it with the 1.25" adapter in & the cheap EP's that came with the ST80 however, so difficult to say if the image has improved any really, but I am very happy with it - the 'scope now looks like a 'proper' scope & not a toy ;-)

thx guys!

[Mark at Beaufort]

It will be interesting how you get on with this SCT design diagonal. It would be nice to try out my Nagler 26mm in one - the FOV should be impressive

Mark

[LDUNN1]

.....The FoV of the Nagler is not wider than the Ethos though is it????

If you are ever down Southampton way, it would be a pleasure to let you try out this WO diagonal.....

....It is certainly a hefty wedge (in a nice way).....I can't wait to put a quality EP in it ;-).......I'm even more tempted to just go & get something now......it is going to be a struggle resisting until Saturday!

The SCT adapter part screws directly into the triangular section of the diagonal in place of the 2" dia tube that would normally slot into a 2" compression joint. This SCT adapter shortens the light path significantly by approx 1"-1.5" (estimate) - without this shortening, the WO ZS 66ED does not seem to make focus (on the quick go I had - but I best double check that!). Obviously other 'scopes may not have this issue, but it's worth mentioning. At least you have the option of straight 2" tube for compression join OR the SCT.

The diag also came with the 2"->1.25" adapter in the eyepiece end.......which I hope/plan to do away with in time, but it's nice to have it currently & I guess as a 'just in case' for the future.

[Rossco72]

I couldnt get my 17mm Ethos to focus in my 66 using a 2" visual back and a normal push fit 2" diagonal.

I had to use an SCT diagonal to achieve focus.

[LDUNN1]

......when I first tried to put the new diagonal on, in my enthusiasm, I screwed the short SCT adapter onto the 2" tube that sticks out of the diagonal that would attach to the 'scope.......not realising initially that the 2" tube can be unscrewed from the triangular part of the diagonal & that the SCT adapter can be screwed directly into the diagonal housing.

......the extra length due to the 2" (diameter) tube meant I could not initially reach focus, but I quickly spotted the issue & resolved.

I tried out the WO diagonal last night - viewed Saturn with the cheap skywatcher 10mm (that came with the ST80) & with/without the 2x barlow (that also came with the ST80 - how do they do that ST80 at the price with all of these extra 'goodies'??? ;-) ). I also had an old 2nd hand 20mm plossel - don't know much about it, all the letters are worn off, but its a tad more weighty than the SW EP's & has a slightly better quality feel (not much better though!). Got wife to come & take a look - first time she has looked through any of my kit at the heavens......got an instand 'wow' followed by 'is that really Saturn up there?' (when head was removed from EP & looking up at the 'star' the scope was pointing too).......I was quite pleased by her reaction given that through the WO ZS 66ED with a 20mm EP (initially), the image of Saturn was very small (but still recognisable). When I switched to the SW 10mm & 10mm+barlow, the image got a bit bigger but degraded - what I don't know is if this was just because of the cheap EP's, OR because I was over mag'ing the scope......I strongly suspect it was the EP's & barlow quality as it would only have been at 40x w/out the barlow & then 80x with it (might have just started getting into pushing the scope a bit too far with the barlow & the 10mm according to others comments on here though).

I did have a quick go of connecting my Canon DSLR up to the WO diagonal too, but the light path was too long to get focus - I removed the diagonal & had a str8 light path into the DSLR & focused fine (using 2" diameter adapters)......but Saturn was understandably miniscule & not work a photo attempt. I can add stacked 2x & 1.4x converters (similar to barlows) between the DSLR & 'scope adapter to boost the focal length / magnification, but the tripod head was not stable enough for this, so it will have to wait until I get the EQ6 mount out......this was just a quick "looksie".

.......I picked up a 'classic' Towa 339 80mm f15 1200mm a few weeks back, but have not tried it out yet - I've ordered up some 0.965" to 1.25" adapters in preparation ( couldn't find any 0.965" to 2" ones) for when I get a decent EP though - hope to get better views of Saturn through that just due to the greater FL.

[John]

... When I switched to the SW 10mm & 10mm+barlow, the image got a bit bigger but degraded - what I don't know is if this was just because of the cheap EP's, OR because I was over mag'ing the scope......I strongly suspect it was the EP's & barlow quality as it would only have been at 40x w/out the barlow & then 80x with it (might have just started getting into pushing the scope a bit too far with the barlow & the 10mm according to others comments on here though)...

The low quality eyepiece / barlow won't help the scope perform at it's best but even with the best quality accessories 66mm of aperture is not a lot ....

If you want "wow" images you will need more aperture as well as focal length. I find 4 inches of aperture the minimum for satisfying images and preferrably 5 or 6 inches - more for deep sky objects.

I have thought a number of times through this thread whether, once you use the scope a bit, you might want to invest in more aperture rather than ultra-premium eyepieces.

At the end of the day it's aperture that will deliver the "wows"

[LDUNN1]

yeah, (sigh) I know you are right John......& I do plan to buy something much bigger......& because of that, I'm happy to invest in good EP's now with a view to the future......otherwise I don't think I would been planning on putting a £400+ EP on a £150 'scope ;-)

.......the WO ZS 66ED is just a cheap grab'n'go to me (a very nice one all the same!), something to play with while I get my head around justifying spending a large sum on a much bigger scope......I think I know what I'd like to get, but it mean dipping into the isa now, or saving up over the summer.......& as viewing opportunities are somewhat reduced that this time of year, I thought I'd take the save up approach.

Despite the meagre aperture & focal length of the 66, it did still get a 'wow' for all the right reasons (there was a concern that my wife would have not been impressed & would have started asking awkward questions about how much did this scope cost to get that small pathetic view of saturn ;-) ). I'm still amazed that such a small scope can show you saturn at all to be honest!

[MikeWilson]

Trying a few eyepieces out is a great idea - cookies / jaffa cakes are usually considered good "payment"

Hi Lawrence,

If you want to try out some of my eyepieces, you're more than welcome to borrow them. Jaffa cakes make for an excellent loan currency in the astronomical world :-)

However, like you, I'm considering getting the Baader Hyperion Zoom eyepiece to replace all my smaller eyepieces - it'll save space in my eyepiece box and be more or less one of the only eyepieces I'll need. I'm not much of a visual observer, but it's nice to get out there and look from time to time.

Best,

Mike

[LDUNN1]

Cheers Mike......didn't know you had any eye pieces - thought you were just imaging like me ;-)

Yeah, that would be great - what have you got? Next viewing at BAF is scheduled for Fri 17th I see.....I'm planning on going, are you???

[LDUNN1]

(ps to Mike, it was McVites caramel digestives last time ;-) )

[MikeWilson]

I brought the Jaffa cakes last time :-)

I have some eyepieces from the Revelation Plossl set. A 12mm, 20mm and 32mm with a 2x Barlow. I'm planning to sell them though, this imaging lark is an expensive mistress and it needs funding :-)

EDIT: BAF on the 17th? Sounds awesome. Don't forget that we've got a rather special event on the 12th - you're going to that, too?

[LDUNN1]

yeap - I'm on for the 12th too.

Put the 17th in the diary too!

....hey, I just noticed your sign off on here - you got a 550D too????? didn't you swop that for a modded 1000d or something????

[MikeWilson]

yeap - I'm on for the 12th too.

Put the 17th in the diary too!

....hey, I just noticed your sign off on here - you got a 550D too????? didn't you swop that for a modded 1000d or something????

It's in my diary :-)

Yup, I've got a 550D too - for daytime use (and I have used it with the scope once or twice). I sold my 1000D to another SGL member here in order to put towards the QHY8L.

I know you're a keen photographer, but for me it started the other way around. I bought my first DSLR (a 1000D) purely for astro use and then ended up liking it for daytime use and pulling family photographic duty. It's also a secondary hobby for those times when one cannot do anything astro related :-)

Mike

[LDUNN1]

Gents - another update:-

Got out observing last night with the South Coast group for the first time - very friendly bunch (most astronomers seem to be), & I got to try out a number of EP's in the little WO ZS 66ED

.......Meade 5000's, Ethos & Hyperion Zoom.

.......The view through the Ethos was magnificent as per all the things I've read about it, but if you factor in price the decision is not clear cut. If you favour flexibility, then the hyper zoom is very very good option.

.......So the decision is still not made, but at least I now have a better idea of what the major options bring to the table.

.......will post again if/when I make the purchase......

.......its been an education!!!

[LDUNN1]

.....oh, just wanted to add, with the Hyper-zoom I got a small bit of kidney beaning - not really bad, but it was there. I could live with it though - not as bad as the same effect on an old EP I have which I find frustrating in use, but it does give sharper images vs the freebie Skywatcher EP's I got with the ST80, when you get it right - hence, currently its the EP I am using most as it seems noticeably sharper. Russ identified this as a 20mm Celestron Plossel (the lettering has practically all rubbed off) - apparently pretty well respected so I'm told, but due to the kidneys, I want to get something better in this respect. This 20 Celestron plossel has apparently lost its rubber eyecup which is making the kidney's much worse.

The Ethos had NO sign of kidneys......& I don't recall seeing them in the Meade 5000's either.

.......If I am going to 'splash out' on the Ethos, I now have the tricky task of which size to go for.......I am thinking of getting a quality barlows so that whatever EP I get can be used close to the max mag of this scope on occassion to increase the flexibility.

......I'm thinking the 8mm as this gives me 50x & with a barlows 100x which seems to be close to the mag limit - so I'd have the mid & hi ends covered.

Maybe at a later date I'd add a wider EP that with the barlow woudl drop the mag between 50x & 100x - maybe something like the 11mm.

I also noticed that with the quick go on the hyper zoom, I tended to zoom out to find the subject & then zoom back in to look at it......hence this backs up the idea of 8mm too......

[Mark at Beaufort]

Deciding on EPs is always a difficult decision. I generally believe that we buy too many EPs and now if I am observing DSOs its only the 26mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos (the main used EP) and the 8mm Ethos. Yes I use the Hyperion zoom which I believe is a quality EP for the money but its main use will be my solar viewing.

Good luck with your decision Lawrence and if you buy the 8mm Ethos it will stay with you whatever scope for might purchase in the future.

Lets know how you get on.

Mark

[LDUNN1]

Cheers Mark for all your comments, posts & advice.

I think I'm now down to a toss up between the 6mm & 8mm - & I know that which ever I get, it will be with me for whatever the future may hold. It gives an awesome view!

As soon as I get one - I'll be sure to post back here!

......my WO diag attracted a few positive comments on Friday nights viewing too!

[LDUNN1]

Update:-

......well, having settled on the Ethos for its gorgeous vistas, I thought I'd sorted this one out......

......it then came to picking a EP FL - I make an Excel chart up with the options showing the mags with & without a 2x power mate.

......tried out the 'free toot' EP's that I already have (a 20mm & 10mm & 2x barlow) to get a feel for the mags involved.

......been going round & round in circles......so I decided to pull the trigger on a Nagler 3-6 zoom ;-)

......why I hear you all ask, after settling on the Ethos range?.

......Well, I've figured that getting the Nagler zoom will allow me to get a very good understanding of what I am happy with max magnification wise, on this WO ZS 66ED scope, & potentially other scopes I may own in the future.

This should help guide me into what Ethos FL to go for - taking a 2x powermate / barlow into account.

.......with the barlow putting the ethos just short of the max I am happy with.

.......plus, I'll always have the Nagler zoom for those rare conditions where the seeing supports higher mags.......it might even be that the Ethos will fall a fair bit short of the optimum mag that a seamless zoom will give, so for planetry, this zoom may be used more than just helping define the Ethos.

.......it might be a gigantic mistake, but having spent a week, re-reading all your comments, & flitting between the 6mm, no wait the 8mm, no the 10mm, no the 6mm.....etc etc (you get the picture), I had to do something to break the deadlock somehow! ;-)

......I appreciate that much of the time, my scope will only support the half nearest the 6mm end of the zoom range, but I think I should learn a fair bit from this & the final size of Ethos I go for should 'drop out' (hopefully).

......have been concerned that I might end up buying an ethos & 2x PM/barlow & then discovering that with the 2x PM/barlow it is too much magnification & I never end up using it with the 2x PM/barlow as a result - which is counter productive when you have so few EP's to start with. Hopefully now I'll end up with an Ethos which I'll beable to use effectively with & without the 2x add-on.

.....hope that makes some kind of sense......

as an aside, In daylight I did some back to back photos through my Olympus 600mm lens with & without Olympus 2x converter, canon 70-200 f2.8 IS with & without 2x & 1.4x converters (plus stacking them), the WO ZS 66ED & the ST80. Camera in all cases was Canon 5d2. I have been using the OM 600mm for astro-photography since March time. In these daylight tests, shooting an object 2 miles away, surprisingly the 70-200 f2.8 IS mk2 with stacked 2x & 1.4x converters came out top (I was zooming in on the image taken without converters to get the same image size on screen for comparison). The ST80 was the worst, & I'm sad & surprised to say that the WO was not far behind. Maybe this is to be expected as they are optimised for astro use & not daylight.......maybe another night time back to back test is in order.......but for now, I think I am going to switch to the Canon zoom plus converters for my imaging, until I get something better. the Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS mk2 is a very well respected lens in photography circles though, so maybe I should not have been so surprised by the result, its just that I know the Canon 2x converter (I have the mk2) is also known for being less than perfect......

[LDUNN1]

UPDATE:-

.....just for those of you that helped me out on this, I thought you might appreciate hearing the complete story.

.....I bought & used the Nagler 3-6mm zoom on the WO ZS 66 - mainly used it to view Saturn over the past month or so.

.....the image degrades too much at 3mm to be not worth the extra mag involved IMO. 5mm is usable, 4mm is where it becomes questionable.

.....I suspected the purple haze / CA was contributing to the degraded image when you pushed the limits, so I decided to buy a Baader Semi Apo filter to combat all manner of nasties. This filter does have a positive effect on the purple haze, but does not eradicate it totally (I didn't expect it to though), but it doesn't seem to introduce any adverse colour cast either (as some do). I have not done enough viewing with/without it to comment further though.

.....based upon my experience with the Nagler & the cheap SW EP's, & viewing with others EP's I decided I'd get a 10mm Ethos - if nothing else, when people as whats the mag, it will be easy to work out ;-) .......sadly, life isn't straight forward & you have to be flexible......an 8mm Ethos came up cheap 2nd hand - so I decided to go for that instead!

It is a lovely EP - giving 50x mag in the WO ZS 66.....a nice mid power EP.

.......I thought I'd wait until end Aug before adding to my small EP collection, wanting to drop something lower powered into play / bigger exit pupil. I'd read for DSO's an exit pupil between 2-3mm was ideal......the 8mm giving only 1.32 in the WO ZS 66.

.......it was a toss up between the Ethos 17 & 21 - this week I saw TelescopeHouse had a 10% sale on - so I brought forward the purchase. Thursday night I settled on the 21mm, which would give me slightly less mag in the WO ZS 66 than I ideally wanted (19x) with a 3.5mm exit pupil, but this seemed to match the bigger scopes that I may buy in the future (I have a list of 'potentials' covering all the major design groups - reflectors/refractors/cats). There was only a £100 difference between them too.

Friday morning arrives & I go to order (TH 10% off sale started Fri) - but just before I order I visit SGL - & would you believe it there's an E17 2nd hand for sale - the price differnetial now grew to £200 - the 17 was 2/3rds the cost of the 21mm. Dilemma time again!

.......after much hand wringing & consulting with Russ - I ended up going for the 17mm which is better suited to the WO ZS 66 I think, giving 24x mag & 2.8 exit pupil......there is no telling when or if I might buy a bigger scope, & even if I do, it's primary role will be imaging, so I'll still be using the lovely little WO. The E17 should turn up next week - it will be interesting to see if I notice the effect of the exit pupil size.

.............& finally, I'm probably going to get a Powermate in the TH sale to double the mag of the 8mm to 100x - which the nagler seems to indicate is the max I can push this particular scope - I am figuring that the PM'ed E8 will be a better view than the Nag @ 4mm.

[MikeWilson]

Good choices! Time to give them a good real world test next time we have an observing session