With These Requirements Can You Advise?

[G2EWS]

Hi All,

Just introduced myself and wanted to discuss my requirements and if I am heading down the correct route!

I am as mentioned an amateur photographer and use a Nikon D3X for portrait and landscape work and a D3S for sport, low light or general walking about.

After many years of not taking much notice of space I am trying to make my mind up if this is a hobby I could bolt onto my desire of photography. I blame this on a friend from Exeter - John and his Wife Lynne, who may be a member here. They have been posting photos on facebook that have got me interested!

I would want to take the telescope with me when go away in our RV (motorhome) so portability is important. As is being able to set up fairly quickly. I definitely want it to be self seeking and have seen various versions of this.

From one site I came across this:

Skyliner 300P FlexTube SynScan™ Go-To Telescope

Which seems to fulfil all of my criteria.

However, I am aware that you folks get asked these questions all of the time and I am a total newbie to this hobby.

If this product is totally useless for my needs or there is a better way of getting the results I am after please let me know.

Oh and I am reading like mad to catch up on as much as I can. So bear with me if I appear to have little or no knowledge!

Many thanks for your assistance.

Best regards

Chris

[brianb]

Well if I needed to get a scope into a motorhome, I certainly wouldn't be looking at a 12" Dob ...

Look at the Astrotrac portable mount system. You can use that with your existing tele lenses, or invest in a small high quality imaging refractor, like the Televue 60is.

[brantuk]

Hi Chris

Questions are fine - one thing about astronomy is that people generally enjoy helping others at all levels - we'd rather see you get something suitable to you rather than a dud

The 300P is indeed a great scope that will show you just about everything you'll ever want to see. However when folk talk about portability they usually mean "grab and go" small scopes. The 300P is by no means grab and go - it's quite a beast but breaks down in two liftable bits - but its big and heavy.

We have no probs with ours - the base goes in the Volvo estate boot on it's side and the tube on the back seat. Then we tow the caravan. You'd need to check if the base will fit through the RV door - it's a wide diameter.

If you are a serious photographer though - the 300P will be unsuitable for deep sky objects, and you'll get limited results with planets. It's on an alt/az mount (dobsonian) and these types are not accurate enough at tracking for imaging.

You would really need an equatorial mount and then a good one. Something like a S/W Eq6 pro and upwards. This will track in right ascension (as the stars rotate) - the alt/az only gives altitude and azimuth tracking. You can then choose an OTA for the mount - look at 8" newtonians and whatever refractors fit within budget. This sort of setup will be no problem in an RV.

Hope that helps you think about it more - good luck

[brianb]

If you are a serious photographer though

I think it goes without saying that anyone toting a Nikon D3 is serious.

[brantuk]

Yeah brian - I shoulda said "if you're gonna be serious about astro imaging" lol

[G2EWS]

Hi Brian and Bran,

Many thanks for the advice.

Brian the motorhome is an American RV so has plenty of room. I will take two camera bags, tripods, flash tripods and used to take my 600mm prime lens with me. All fits safely in the bedroom then is transferred to the drivers seating area once we arrive on site.

Bran, do I take it you are talking about something like this:

Sky-Watcher 250PX Explorer with EQ-6 PRO SynScan Computerised GOTO Mount (924/854) - Warehouse Express

This is where I started but changed to the flextube after seeing that it was more suitable for portability.

I have a bro in law who used to be into this and suggested I may need a catadiopric model so it does not need re setting everytime I get to location? Does that make sense if so what would you suggest?

Best regards

Chris

[brantuk]

The 250 PX is one suitable and popular alternative. But be careful with weight. By the time you add cameras, eye pieces, guide scopes, and fixings etc to the tube, you need to be sure the mount and motors are rated to cope.

A lot of great photography comes from appochromatic refractors on that sort of mount - I'm toying with those myself now for the first time - so no expert by any means. One of the imaging guys will be along in a bit to advise further on that.

Catadioptrics are great on planets but have narrower fields of view. If you want to snap galaxies and nebulas a wide field appo is probably going to be more suitable. That said - you can observe most things with all scopes - it's just that some are better than others at imaging particular types of objects.

I would thoroughly recommend reading "Making Every Photon Count" written by Steppenwolf from the forum here. It'll give you a great insight into astro imaging and explain the possibilities and methods with different scope types

http://www.nightskyimages.co.uk/making_every_photon_count.htm

[lukebl]

It's worth noting that, if you want to image DSOs (galaxies, nebulae, etc.) size isn't everything and you'd be better off with a much smaller imaging scope. Big is fine for visual, but no real advantage (apart from image scale) when imaging.

Having said that, I use a 250mm Newt for imaging but it is a bit big and cumbersome!

[Starblazer]

I have the 250px and I'm now getting a 150pds. The field of view for photographing the deep sky wonders, is just too small.

So the 150pds will get the whole of the main boy of m42 and runningman, whole of andromeda and it's satelite galaxies. It all depends on just how good you want the image and what you are willing to spend. Don't forget that newtonians need a coma corrector/field flattener....this is added cost but you will find this with anything you buy unless you pay out good wonga.

Also, although the d3 is a serious piece of kit, it may not be the greatest due to the fact it filters UV/IR much like canon without modification and i'm not sure you would want to mod that camera.

I'm sure there will be more about to make some reasonable suggestions but I would suggest you pop a price up of what you can afford and then see what people suggest from there.

[ollypenrice]

If you want to do photography you need to go in an entirely different direction. Firstly your mount has to be equatorial. End of story.

Secondly, the longer the focal length the better your tracking has to be. For any kind of serious astro imaging you need an autoguider, even at short focal lengths.

500mm is short, 1000mm is getting long and anything over 1500mm is likely to be tricky in any mobile setup.

Huge aperture you simply do not need. Have a look at the deep sky imaging section here to see what folks are using. The dominant setup is the small fast refractor. These work.

Maybe grab a copy of Steve Richards' book Making Every Photon Count?

Olly

http://ollypenrice.smugmug.com/

[Astro_Baby]

Well strangely I have a 250 on an EQ6 and its a veritable beast of a scope. T bo honest I cant see me ever using it much except for star parties.

Its just incredibly heavy and bulky. Almost exponentially bigger than my 8" which will probably stay on as the scope of choice for deep sky.

I think if astro imaging is your bag you should be aware that its technically challenging and expensive.

As an ex pro photographer myself I cam into this hobby assuming that, in time, I would go the astro route. My thinking was I am a very confident and accomplished pro and therefore how hard could it be to bolt the camera to a telescope and take some pics. It couldnt be hard than glamour surely with all the tantrums, hissy fits, magazine editors changing their minds etc etc

By the way my professional work was glamour my own work was landscape/cityscape.

The truth is photography in a terrestrial sense bears little relationship to astro imaging, apart from the fact you use a camera. The technical challenges are within my reach and abilities (at least I think they would be) but astro imagingh relies heavily on sitting in front of a PC and I do enough of that already.

On top of that, while it can be done from a fixed camping site, its wholly unsuitable as a hobby for someone like me who has to tote all the gear out of her flat everytime she wants to indulge in astro. A decent sized scope, mount, accessories, eyepiece case and power tank is more than enough to lug about without adding in a guidescope, laptop PC, cameras and extra power.

In terms of astro think not of taking a camera and some lenses, think more in terms of taking a whole studio complete with red tops, reflectors, flash brolleys, strobe flashes and props with you oh and also a darkroom enlarger

I dont want to put a downer on this but I have seen all too many people come into this lark with high hopes of getting 'amazing pictures of stuff like nebula' only to find that its either way too comp,ex, way too time intensive or just plain too expensive.

If imaging is where you want to be you have to kind of forget a lot of what seems obvious with a camera as a pro (the most common misconception for instance is that an amazing SLR gets you halfway there - it doesnt really - sorry). I know its a bit disheartening to be told your wonderbox camrea costing £££££ is not so useful as a cheap webcam for planets, I remember finding that out and it HURT

If I were in your shoes I would buy Steve Richards (he's a member here) book called 'Making Every Photon Count' its aimed at people starting down the imaging route and it will save you making expensive mistakes in your buying. If Steve had written it sooner it would have helped me for sure.

I stopped thinking of astro imaging and realised I would never have time to do it so concentrated on observing instead. EVen that suffers time constraints and the UK weather is abysmal for any form of astro. I have seen at least two people, who were accomplished astro imagers, pack it all up because of weather in the UK.

[G2EWS]

Hi all,

Many thanks for the additional advice. I am so pleased I asked!

So I need a telescope which has an apochromatic refractors with goto?

As to budget, I guess I am looking around the £1,500 as a starting point but happy to spend a bit more if necessary. If that is pointless to get what I want then I will have to re visit it.

Astro_Baby, I have never believed that owning a good camera makes you a good photographer nor do I believe that anything is achievable without effort.

I note you have this as your signature:

"No pessimist ever discovered the secret of the stars, or sailed to an uncharted land, or opened a new doorway for the human spirit"

Well I am most definitely falling of the optimist end of the scale, believing everything is achievable if you have the inclination to do it. Indeed I have spent my life teaching these principles to sales people and family alike!

However, having said that I fully appreciate I am heading for a complex and difficult hobby that may or may not take off. But I am willing to give it a try.

Best regards

Chris

[G2EWS]

Does anyone know if 'Making Every Photon Count' is available in ereader or pdf format?

Best regards

Chris

[Starblazer]

Does anyone know if 'Making Every Photon Count' is available in ereader or pdf format?

Best regards

Chris

Don't start skimping on a book that is worth more than the money you pay!!! Buy it, you won't regret it.

Firstly, i'd look at a mount, for the money you are spending, get the heq6 and a nice 80mm apo with field flattener. That is, if you are looking to do wide field, if you are thinking of planets then you have to go another route as you would be better off with something with a larger f/ratio something like f9 or greater, like the maks.

[brantuk]

Chris - send a pm to Steve (Steppenwolf) and he will be able to advise on that.

But he's great on sevice - when I ordered my copy in the afternoon it was on my doorstep next day at 9am

[Starblazer]

Doesn't matter how good your scope is, if your mount isn't set properly or capable of holding and moving the load without issue, then you will end up disappointed trust me lol.

Getting a good mount will mean you won't have to worry about that for a while until you start to go up in tube size.

[G2EWS]

Don't start skimping on a book that is worth more than the money you pay!!! Buy it, you won't regret it.

Firstly, i'd look at a mount, for the money you are spending, get the heq6 and a nice 80mm apo with field flattener. That is, if you are looking to do wide field, if you are thinking of planets then you have to go another route as you would be better off with something with a larger f/ratio something like f9 or greater, like the maks.

I really don't think I could be accused of skimping by buying an eBook! I have many thousands of books that go everywhere with me on my Sony eReader and iPad! Not sure it is that easy if they are in paper form! And yes I do refer to them a lot!

I think the eq6 seems to be the correct mount based on everything you have all said.

Just trying to get the right telescope now.

Best regards

Chris

[Astro_Baby]

Chris I wasnt suggesting that anyone who was pro would believe that a good camera makes you a good photographer but I have seen quite a few people turn up believeing that a top line DSLR is a good start in astro imaging and it isnt necessarily.

For planets for instance a lot of the imaging people use cheap webcams - there are reasons for that but some people do wonder why a cheap webcam is better than their shiny DSLR. I just threw that out as an example of how different it is in astro terms to anything you may have come across before.

Optimsim is good and I really wasn't putting a downer on it, honest, but I would be failing a beginner if I didn't mention issues.

I am ex-sales as well by the way and yes you have to be optimistic if you make a living doing that but you also need some hard headed realism in it as well. I am sure you have managed the classic optimism over sense sales people that exist I know I have in my time.

That qoute by the way is from Helen Keller - a childhood hero of mine and its a worthy qoute but Helen Keller was exceptional and a rule I learnt in sales is never base your expectations, your income or anything else on exceptions.

[G2EWS]

Hi Astro_Baby,

Sorry, I have heard it stated so many times before when you own a good camera. People tend to cite that all the time. As it happens I try to talk most newbies to the photography world away from high end cameras. As I am sure you realise it is all about the glass.

Like you, when you started I am at a loss to understand why a good camera would not be good thing for astro photography! But I am here to learn! I also have a Fuji S3 that I was thinking of getting converted to infra red. Am I reading correctly that this is a good idea for astro photography? If so, how do you get colour photos?

Took me years to understand f stops and shutter speeds, guess it is a long learning curve on here as well!!

Best regards

Chris

[G2EWS]

Chris - send a pm to Steve (Steppenwolf) and he will be able to advise on that.

But he's great on sevice - when I ordered my copy in the afternoon it was on my doorstep next day at 9am

Thanks Bran, will do that now.

Best regards

Chris

[steppenwolf]

The advice you have been given so far is pretty much what I would advise although I'd labour the Refractor argument a little further!

The quality of the mount is key to this endeavour just as a good solid tripod will ensure better terrestrial photographs. An EQ mount is absolutely vital as already stated, so please do heed this advice.

I think that a relatively short focal length ED Refractor would be the best place to start and an 80 mm would really help you find your feet in this hobby as you will find it a very different discipline to the sort of photography that you are used to. I quickly discovered this when I moved from my life long love of wild flower photography to astro-photography! The shorter focal length will put less demands on your mount and its tracking ability and make for a more realistic portable system.

Many deep sky objects are pretty large so a long focal length will not be so suitable and although reflectors can be bought with shorter focal lengths they are not so physically solid as refractors and will require regular collimation especially after a journey in your RV.

Your camera will be less than ideal for astro-photography because of its inbuilt IR filter which will tend to attenuate the red portions of the spectrum associated with the Hydrogen Alpha (Ha) and Sulphur II (SII) emissions from many nebulae but that certainly doesn't mean that you won't achieve satisfactory images.

With your budget, I'd consider something like:-

Mount and imaging Telescope

Sky-Watcher Evostar 80mm ED Pro on EQ6 mount

Guide Scope

Sky-Watcher 80mm ST Refractor

Autoguider

Sky-Watcher SynGuider

This would give you a nicely self contained system with a mount that is future proofed.

[G2EWS]

Hi Steve,

Many thanks for your input and your pm. I will order the book on my return from dinner.

Based on your above information I am trying to understand if the 'goto' is better or I should go with your suggested 'sky-watcher synguider'. How is one better than the other. Or better put, in what way is one better than the other?

Looking at your suggestions I would also have thought this would fit well within my budget:

Skywatcher Evostar 100ED DS-Pro Outfit

Along with the EQ6 and goto.

But I am in your hands as to what makes best sense!

Best regards

Chris

[ollypenrice]

I agree with Steve entirely, though if you are going to stick with a smallish refractor then the EQ5 is lighter and, I think, as accurate as the EQ6. It just won't carry a big scope as successfully if one day you want one. However, as a small bloke I would rather haul the lighter mount out any night! My own EQ sixes stay put.

Have a look at autoguiding options as well. I use a cheap ST80. My own autoguiders are getting on and were more expensive than you now need to pay.

Olly

[steppenwolf]

There is an important distinction between GoTo and autoguiding. A GoTo mount will find celestial objects for you and when it has done so, it will track them very well for visual use, often keeping the chosen object in the eyepiece for hours BUT this is not good enough for the long exposure times required to capture most deep sky objects. Unless you spend very serious money on your mount, your images will display star trailing caused by the mount failing to track accurately enough through what is known as Periodic Error (PE). PE is caused by minor inaccuracies in the manufacture of the gear systems that drive the mount and are called 'periodic' as they occur at regular points during the cycle of the worm drive. Other errors can be introduced by weight shift, binding, wind and atmospheric effects.

To ensure that the mount tracks very accurately, a feedback loop is required that checks to see if the chosen object has moved on the camera's sensor and a common way of doing this is to use a second telescope (the 'guide 'scope ') attached to the mount with the imaging 'scope with a guide camera checking to see if any movement is detected and then correcting it. This feedback loop is called 'autoguiding'.

[Starblazer]

The bonus with an EQ6 over and EQ5 is that if you decide to go for a larger scope or even decide to start mounting dual scopes with guide camera's and so on. You won't have to worry about overloading it.

With regards to the book, my mistake, thought you were looking for a free version lol.

You'd be surprised how many ask as they don't want to pay the small price for what is a really good informative book!