Expensive 8x40 bins or cheap 15x70?

[jonathan]

Hi,

I just got a SkyScout and have been enjoying it enormously over the last few nights, but when I look at Jupiter with my Mk I eyeballs (with glasses) it seems so tantalisingly close that I really want to get a better look at it. I don't have room for a telescope so am looking at the binocular option, so far I've read a few threads here and narrowed it down to 8x40, 10x50, or 15x70.

Here are some I've looked at:

8x40 for £70 - Opticron Aspheric

10x50 for £23 - Celestron UpClose

15x70 for £76 - Celestron SkyMaster

I don't have particularly strong arms and don't want the hassle of trundling out a big mount arrangement (which I don't really have space to store anyway, one of the reasons why I don't have a telescope) so that kind of rules the 15x70's out, not to mention the reviews I read that said they were rather fuzzy at the edges; pretty much everything of interest is stright up from where I live, only the plough is near the horizon (I live on a South-facing slope, about two miles away in the valley are two main roads and the bright car headlights are very off-putting to say the least, so I prefer not to look down there). Yes, I could drive a couple of miles up the road to the top of the hill but for the moment I'd like to see what I can from the back garden.

The 10x50's seem too cheap to be good, anybody tried these or have suggestions for better ones?

I would rather spend the money on a very good pair of 8x40's than be disappointed in a bigger pair that maybe isn't quite as crisp that I can't hold steady.

I don't expect to see the individual moons of Jupiter or the rings of Saturn, but it would be nice to be able to pick out star clusters and perhaps see nebulae. What will I actually see through a good pair of binoculars?

Thanks for your help!

[brianb]

The 15x70s will definitely show more but IMHO anything more powerful than 8x really needs mounting for astronomy - a decent camera tripod will do.

The cheap 10x50s will probably prove to be about 10x40 in use, loss of light by undersized prisms takes its toll and the coatings will likely be poor at this price level.

The very worst have "ruby" coatings on the outer surface only, internal surfaces uncoated ....

Good 8x40 or even 8x30 bins will show Jupiter's moons easily enough, also Titan, but you will not have enough magnification to show that Jupiter is a disc or much in the way of Saturn's rings, though they should look different from a star of similar brightness. i.e. definitely not a point.

BTW £70 is lower mid range for 8x40 bins, the top end of the market is over £1000. But the Opticrons should be quite reasonable.

[alfingido]

I have a pair of Russian 10x50's made by Tento. They really are superb and will easily show you Jupiters moons, but you really need to steady them as there is a lot of jiggling about ( with my arms anyway) Supported on the back of a chair or similar and they are fine.

I dont see any reason not to go for a good pair of 8x40's like you mention, but keep away from cheap 10x50's and try to test them if you can before use.

Allan

[jonathan]

Thanks all very much for the info!

The 15x70s will definitely show more but IMHO anything more powerful than 8x really needs mounting for astronomy - a decent camera tripod will do.

So I've been reading, but that would be no good for looking straight up unfortunately. When I get my back garden observatory built I'll install a chair from a rocket ship in the take-off position!

Good 8x40 or even 8x30 bins will show Jupiter's moons easily enough

Interesting! How much should I expect to spend or what make / model would you say is 'good' for an 8x40 pair? (better than the Opticron) I don't really want to spend much more than £100 to be honest, but indulge me if you will. How much for a good pair of 15x70s?

[brianb]

indulge me if you will. How much for a good pair of 15x70s?

£200+. Miyauchi no longer make bins in this class but when they did they retailed at around £1000.

[Bizibilder]

One suggestion I would make, if I may, is to make sure that whatever you buy you try first (go to the shop to try and then buy the same cheaper via the net!!). The reason is that two pairs of bins by different makers eg 10x50 can be totally different in weight and "feel" when you get hold of them. (Apart from differences in optical quality!). You will soon find what "fits" you the best. I have two pairs of 10x50's - one 35 years old, heavy and with a solid metal body - the other came as a "freebie" with my new telescope - Chinese imports, very light to hold and far better optics. They are WAY better!!

I would also suggest some sort of mounting as definately necessary, unless you are very lucky there will be some "shake" - even a simple tripod will eliminate this. You can buy a camera tripod for about £20 which will do the job. I often put a "cushon" on the top of mine and rest the bins on that ( I steal Mrs Bizibilders grain filled "warm-it-in-the-microwave" relaxation pillow) - it works well.

Overall - STEADY cheaper bins will outperform shaky expensive bins!

[alfingido]

You might be ok with a monopod rather than a tripod, it makes it easier to slew around the sky and still gets rid of the jigglies.

Allan

[jonathan]

I have a monopod which is the central column part of a big old camera tripod (very smooth and steady head movement), so that's not going to be a problem. Just need to get a decent binocular mount from somewhere for those vertical viewing sessions - might just be able to get away with it if I sit in a sun chair.

[kniclander]

obviously the correct answer is "get both"...

tbh if you are only getting one instrument (yeah right) I'd get the 15x70s as even cheap 15x70s will show you a lot more of the heavens than the world's best 8x40s

[jonathan]

OK, here's a question... are there any binoculars that have 90 degree viewing eyepieces? You know what I mean, so that I can be looking forward and the binoculars are pointing upward? I've seen eyepieces for cameras that do this so it shouldn't be outside the realms of possibility to make the same thing for binoculars.

As for the big debate, I suspect Kniclander is right - I may soon want more and 15x70 would at least give me probably the most magnification I'm likely to get within my budget, if I find I want higher quality or a lighter pair then I can go for the good 8x40s. I will give it some more thought anyway, got a few days until payday. ;-)

[alfingido]

They are available, though i am not sure if there are any UK dealers. Only in America eh?

Right-Angle Binocular Model RA-88-SA

Allan

[kniclander]

45 deg bins are also available but they tend to only come in the larger sizes and to be more expensive.

[Macavity]

Then there is that intriguing alternative of fixing the binocular above a tilt-able plane mirror, with a mechanism for azimuthal rotation. Good for those who find holding large chunks of metal aloft tiring. Pretty easy to access the Zenith too...

[brianb]

Good for those who find holding large chunks of metal aloft tiring.

But no better than a proper articulated binocular mount.

Issues:

1. Flatness of the plane mirror. If the mirror is a proper optical flat it will be OK, but the price will run well into four figures. If it's a back silvered dressing table mirror the image will be horrible.

2. Reversal of image. This may be a real issue if you want to refer to charts.

3. Any flat surface pointed at the night sky is going to dew up. It will be swimming in 10-15 minutes, and the design makes it hard to fit effective dew control systems.

[PeterMammoth]

I'd recommend the Opticron Vega II 7x50. Good wide FOV, minimal shaking. Long eye relief so I can use my astigmatism correcting glasses. And fully coated optics. £65 from FLO.

[jonathan]

I think after much looking and debating, based on what I've read here and elsewhere, I've narrowed down my realistic starter options to the following:

Meade Travelview 10x50

Celestron SkyMaster 15x70

Opticron Aspheric WA ZWCF 8x40

The Meade Travelview are cheap being £25 but who knows - they could be very good for that price. The other two come in at around the £70 mark, I think these present a fairly decent intro price and quality mark, I can always spend more later once I know what I want (as I don't currently own any bins it's difficult to really know this yet). I don't want to run out and spend hundreds on bins for my first pair, that would be rather nuts.

Any thoughts on these three? I could probably afford to buy any two of these, I'm thinking maybe the latter two. I have also looked at these but thought that they were a bit too expensive for a first pair:

Opticron HR WP 8x42

Oh, and there's also this:

Manfrotto 035BN Binocular Super Clamp

Definitely something I may need for a large pair, and not something I would have to replace soon.

Unfortunately I'm quite a way from any shops that have a good selection of binocs, only Jessops and they're a bit rubbish really. I can take my chances buying online and have a little faith that a quality pair should fit my eyes well enough.

[Bizibilder]

Buy online from a reputable dealer and you should be Ok. PLUS the fact that you have the greatest customer protection against shoddy stuff when buying online. I would suggest any suppliers that advertise in the major Astronomy mags should be OK. (or even this sites sponsors!! - although I have never dealt with them myself!!!!!!).

[Macavity]

But no better than a proper articulated binocular mount.

In strict fairness, I don't think I was making that specific comparison.

Aside: What works for the majority, may be a "show-stopper", for the individual. For me, such is often, the issue of weight. On a positive note, I am tempted by (relatively!) expensive 8x40s - The "quantum step" in weight - being LESS than e.g. 10x50s, might be significant for me.

[jonathan]

Actually I'm now leaning more towards the Bushnell Legend 8x42 Porro bins, they look very handy with 17mm eye relief and 5.25mm exit pupil (I've been doing some reading!) Would I really miss an extra 2mm on the exit pupil? I haven't come across a 10x50 pair that really grabs me yet, and a lot of people seem to be saying 8x42 is the size to go for.

Also I suppose it would be nice for my old dad to be able to enjoy them too (his eyes are definitely dimmer than mine).

[Macavity]

On the face of it, the 5mm (or so) exit pupil is in general accord with a typical dark-adapted ADULT eye pupil. As we see HERE, there's no harm in it being larger but, one senses, no great advantage either.

[brianb]

the 5mm (or so) exit pupil is in general accord with a typical dark-adapted ADULT eye pupil. As we see HERE, there's no harm in it being larger

There is, when you're using a reflector with a central obstruction - the shadow can be very disruptive. Even with a refractor, if you have a 8mm exit pupil and a 5mm aperture eye, your 80mm refractor will effectively be 50mm. Except that a 50mm refractor could be much shorter & therefore have a much wider field of view without suffering from false colour.

I do respect TV as a manufacturer of quality equipment but their philosphy is somewhat at variance with the real world in several respects.

[Macavity]

I do respect TV...

Heheh. Then I'm beginning to rather envy "TV". [teasing] Or, as Matt Lucas might say: "Yeah, I know"! OK, not invariably, but just... SOMETIMES! Gimme a break, maybe?

Hey, I ain't forbidding criticism (LOL) but I think that's the FOURTH successive SGL post I have had, "rather amply" deconstructed (w/bulleted lists even!) - Let's keep this a LEISURE activity?

Back on topic, I am very tempted by some 8x40's

[Paulus]

I just got a pair Tasco 2023BRZ 10x50mm Wide Angle Binoculars from eBay for £13.50 delivered. I was impressed by the field of view and eye relief (having glasses to correct very bad astigmatism), I picked out a number of objects I could see though the clouds the other night, M31 & clusters around cassiopeia, epsilon Lyrae into a double, - then just cloud!

I got them for scanning to improve my star hopping & general navigation around the night sky, not for observation alone, I've got the scope for that , But for the price I feel that it was good money spent.

Hope its of use to someone

[jonathan]

Celestron SkyMaster 15x70 arrived today. Although the near-full moon and generous cloud cover prevented any star gazing I did manage to get some superb views of the moon through the thin clouds and a few gaps.

I wear glasses for distance but they're fairly weak, I found that I just couldn't look through the binoculars properly with my glasses on anyway and got some very nice views without them.

I think I may have finally found the knack to using binoculars without getting double vision! I switch focus to my right eye, if I close either eye I can still see the object but by directing my focus to the right I see one circle rather than two, and only one object. Dunno if this will be of help to anyone (or indeed if I'm doing it right! It works for me anyway).

The bins themselves look solid enough, not exactly military grade but should last a long time if looked after. The tripod adaptor is actually quite good - it's a sturdy looking plastic piece that attaches to the front of the main shaft (I assume this is where they usually attach) with a hand screw, the hole for which is behind a cap that screws off. I attached this to my detachable tripod pole, although it was fine for moon viewing it was still too jittery to see Jupiter or anything else small, I will have to attach it to my main large tripod. The neck strap feels a bit flimsy for the size of the binoculars, the soft carry case is nice and comes with a decent enough strap. Also came with a lens cloth.

I'm sure there are better 15x70 bins available but at £70 I'm happy with these (for now). When I get a chance to spot some proper stars and other objects through them I'll report back.

[Bizibilder]

Jonathan

You should find that the right eyepiece has its own "focus" ie it will turn round. This is to compensate for your (or anyone else's) eyes being different.

The drill is to close the right eye. Focus using the central focus knob. Then open right close left and refocus ONLY BY USING THE RIGHT EYEPIECE ADJUSTMENT.

Then using BOTH eyes move the two "tubes" of the binocular closer or further apart until you only see one image. You should NOT see the old "binocular shape" that was used in old black and white movies of the 1940's!!!!!!!!

Hope this helps.