Altair Astro Starwave 102ED vs 102ED-R

[RobertI]

@badgerchap You may get a quicker and straighter answer to your questions from a retailer of AA products - I bought my 102EDR from Harrison Telescopes who were very helpful and quick to reply (and deliver). Another thing to to try is going to the International Astronomy Show on September 24th. It’s in Warwickshire which is probably a lot closer to you and there are loads of vendors. Altair are not attending but FLO will be there who sell the Starfield equivalent, Widescreen who sell the Technosky equivalent and many others. If you call them before hand they will bring along the scopes you want to try. 

[Louis D]

18 hours ago, badgerchap said:

I asked Altair about the glass in the 102ED, and this is their response:

"Hi there, unfortunately we can't discuss glass price specifics for commercial reasons. If you would like to compare both models to decide which is best for you, we recommend visiting to our shop and comparing the two scopes side by side to check the colour correction. It is very close, but there is a discernible difference, especially if you are under 30 years old, because this is the approximate watershed where retinal degradation begins to affect perception of the far blue wavelengths. We have them all mounted for comparison and it's no trouble at all."

 

This seems to me like they're saying that no, the 102ED does not contain FCD100. Surely if it did, that 'discernible difference' would be vanishingly small?

Funny, they can't confirm what their website explicitly states.  It smells like false advertising to me.  The ol' bait and switch.

[badgerchap]

10 hours ago, RobertI said:

@badgerchap You may get a quicker and straighter answer to your questions from a retailer of AA products - I bought my 102EDR from Harrison Telescopes who were very helpful and quick to reply (and deliver). Another thing to to try is going to the International Astronomy Show on September 24th. It’s in Warwickshire which is probably a lot closer to you and there are loads of vendors. Altair are not attending but FLO will be there who sell the Starfield equivalent, Widescreen who sell the Technosky equivalent and many others. If you call them before hand they will bring along the scopes you want to try. 

That's a great idea - the show is only 20 mins or so from me. Thanks, I'll definitely consider doing that, especially as I'm now putting the Askar 103 triplet into the shortlist (same price as the ED-R) and I'm certain someone will have one of them on show.

[badgerchap]

5 hours ago, Louis D said:

Funny, they can't confirm what their website explicitly states.  It smells like false advertising to me.  The ol' bait and switch.

Yeah, it seems a bit underhanded. I suspect they've just misinterpreted the question, but I've asked for some clarity. Hopefully they respond - otherwise it may end up as a lost sale as a result.

[Stuart1971]

7 minutes ago, badgerchap said:

Yeah, it seems a bit underhanded. I suspect they've just misinterpreted the question, but I've asked for some clarity. Hopefully they respond - otherwise it may end up as a lost sale as a result.

Personally I would look at other options, and give AA a miss, I have never found them very fourth coming when asking questions about there kit, the thing is it’s all rebranded items, that are mass produced in china under many different brands, and not there actual product, so they seem a bit lacking on actual information on many of there products..

I was wanting a camera 2 years ago and asked a bunch of questions, and they answered just one of them, i ended up getting in touch with the company that actually made the camera, Touptek, and asked them instead, and eventually bought direct from them too.. 👍🏻

[badgerchap]

29 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

Personally I would look at other options, and give AA a miss, I have never found them very fourth coming when asking questions about there kit, the thing is it’s all rebranded items, that are mass produced in china under many different brands, and not there actual product, so they seem a bit lacking on actual information on many of there products..

I was wanting a camera 2 years ago and asked a bunch of questions, and they answered just one of them, i ended up getting in touch with the company that actually made the camera, Touptek, and asked them instead, and eventually bought direct from them too.. 👍🏻

Agreed. Since starting this thread I have begun to consider other options. Starfield 102ed, which is as far as I can tell the same as the Altair ED-R, and the Askar 103. Problem is there seem to be some doubts about the Askar in terms of optical quality and the Starfield doesn't have the dual finder shoe, so it seems I'm still umm-ing and ahh-ing, but Altair definitely haven't endeared themselves to me here.

[John]

Some vendors and manufacturers have become reluctant to discuss specifics relating to their products. Skywatcher have taken a similar route with their more recent ED refractors which has caused some dismay amongst prospective purchasers. Their argument is that the products should be judged on their performance rather than the ingredients I think. The trouble (for the vendors / manufacturers) is that for more than a decade the glass types used in refractor objectives have been the subject of much discussion and debate on forums such as SGL and CN. I doubt that caginess over what is actually used in certain models now will put that genie back in the bottle somehow !

To counter that (a little) Tele Vue and Vixen have not revealed the ED glass type used in their non-Fluorite refractor objectives. I guess their brands have that "ring of confidence" to get away with that though.

Also, in the past, vendors and manufacturers such as Skywatcher and Altair have been quick to trumpet when exotic glass has been used in their sales pitches so it seems a little perverse that they should now want to be rather coy about the subject 🤨

Perhaps they are trying that old Jedi mind trick: "These are not the glass types you are looking for ......." 😉

 

 

Edited August 25 by John

[Dave scutt]

I used my skywatcher 100ED Pro with FPL-53 glass last night for the first , pointing at the moon I had no CA.

But I'm used to a bigger apture so there up for sale to fund a bigger dob

[badgerchap]

6 minutes ago, John said:

Some vendors and manufacturers have become reluctant to discuss specifics relating to their products. Skywatcher have taken a similar route with their more recent ED refractors which has caused some dismay amongst prospective purchasers. Their argument is that the products should be judged on their performance rather than the ingredients I think. The trouble (for the vendors / manufacturers) is that for more than a decade the glass types used in refractor objectives have been the subject of much discussion and debate on forums such as SGL and CN. I doubt that caginess over what is actually used in certain models now will put that genie back in the bottle somehow !

To counter that (a little) Tele Vue and Vixen have not revealed the ED glass type used in their non-Fluorite refractor objectives. I guess their brands have that "ring of confidence" to get away with that though.

Also, in the past, vendors and manufacturers such as Skywatcher and Altair have been quick to trumpet when exotic glass has been used in their sales pitches so it seems a little perverse that they should now want to be rather coy about the subject 🤨

Perhaps they are trying that old Jedi mind trick: "These are not the glass types you are looking for ......." 😉

 

 

Indeed.

Judging by performance would be great, if it was easy for us, the consumer, to achieve. My personal issue is that ~£900 is really pushing it, so I need to be confident about that performance and without a real road test, that's a big ask. Specs have to fill the void, and if the vendors are hiding them...I'm going to end up going to someone who isn't! I don't imagine I'm alone in that approach.

[badgerchap]

2 minutes ago, Dave scutt said:

I used my skywatcher 100ED Pro with FPL-53 glass last night for the first , pointing at the moon I had no CA.

But I'm used to a bigger apture so there up for sale to fund a bigger dob

I've had a couple of biggish Dobs, and they are great! However, now I'm looking for something I can bundle into the car with the kids as well as whip out for a short session in the evenings after work. Also, I'm not so bothered by DSO now and I'm looking forward to doubles, open clusters and general wide-ish field stuff. I do still have a 12" Newt and an 8" SCT though!

[Stuart1971]

18 minutes ago, badgerchap said:

Agreed. Since starting this thread I have begun to consider other options. Starfield 102ed, which is as far as I can tell the same as the Altair ED-R, and the Askar 103. Problem is there seem to be some doubts about the Askar in terms of optical quality and the Starfield doesn't have the dual finder shoe, so it seems I'm still umm-ing and ahh-ing, but Altair definitely haven't endeared themselves to me here.

I have just got the new Askar 71f, for review, and it’s a beautifully made little scope, but again they don’t say what the ED element is…although I have not pushed them on this 🤷🏼‍♂️

[badgerchap]

4 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

I have just got the new Askar 71f, for review, and it’s a beautifully made little scope, but again they don’t say what the ED element is…although I have not pushed them on this 🤷🏼‍♂️

For a comparatively new outfit they seem to be ticking a lot of people's boxes. The main reason I'm considering the 103 isn't even because of the glass - it's the mounting options, finder shoes and general housing, all of which look really good quality and very flexible which, for purely visual use, may just trump any minor optical issues.

[Dave scutt]

11 minutes ago, badgerchap said:

I've had a couple of biggish Dobs, and they are great! However, now I'm looking for something I can bundle into the car with the kids as well as whip out for a short session in the evenings after work. Also, I'm not so bothered by DSO now and I'm looking forward to doubles, open clusters and general wide-ish field stuff. I do still have a 12" Newt and an 8" SCT though!

I had a 12" dob the views where amazing.

But I wanted a 4" apo to show the kids and be able to travel with it, but the kids aren't interested 😞.

Both the setup's are very light weight and I can carry with one hand.

But I think I went the wrong way and now want a 16" dob

[Stuart1971]

10 minutes ago, badgerchap said:

For a comparatively new outfit they seem to be ticking a lot of people's boxes. The main reason I'm considering the 103 isn't even because of the glass - it's the mounting options, finder shoes and general housing, all of which look really good quality and very flexible which, for purely visual use, may just trump any minor optical issues.

Personally I don’t think you would regret buying the 103, the finish is very nice, and gets excellent reviews…👍🏻

Edited August 25 by Stuart1971

[badgerchap]

15 minutes ago, Dave scutt said:

I had a 12" dob the views where amazing.

But I wanted a 4" apo to show the kids and be able to travel with it, but the kids aren't interested 😞.

Both the setup's are very light weight and I can carry with one hand.

But I think I went the wrong way and now want a 16" dob

Aperture fever is a terrible thing and has no cure...except a 16" Dob which will at least fend it off for a few months! 

[badgerchap]

13 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

Personally I don’t think you would regret buying the 103, the finish is very nice, and gets excellent reviews…👍🏻

I think that unless I get a good answer from Altair, that'll be the way I go.

[Elp]

57 minutes ago, badgerchap said:

Starfield doesn't have the dual finder shoe

Is it so difficult to fit your own? Really? Less than a fiver each from AliExpress. I've also fitted the WO handle so have three mounting points for accessories.

But I get the point, these things are so cheap they should be included.

Edited August 25 by Elp

[badgerchap]

Just now, Elp said:

Is it so difficult to fit your own? Really? Less than a fiver each from AliExpress. I've also fitted the WO handle so have three mounting points for accessories.

But it get the point, these things are so cheap they should be included.

They are indeed cheap and easy, but if there's no significant difference between the OTAs other than this, why even bother with cheap and easy if you can have it pre-applied at the factory? 

[Ratlet]

5 minutes ago, badgerchap said:

I think that unless I get a good answer from Altair, that'll be the way I go.

The 103 also has a removable section to allow you to achieve focus with a bioscope without a Barlow.

I very nearly got one but a good deal on the tecno-sky came up so I snaffled that.  Really like the idea of binoviewing with a large fov though...

With regards to finder shoes, I got the extra but also got this:

https://www.svbony.com/sv211-203mm-saddle-handle-bar/

Honestly the handle is much more useful as you can mount an rdf or telrad or whatever further up the tube where it is more useful (in some cases)

[Elp]

3 minutes ago, badgerchap said:

if you can have it pre-applied at the factory? 

Because you usually have to pay through the nose for it for a one minute task, far cheaper to do it yourself. I've sourced many finder shoes and fitted them cheaper than the cost to usually source one or two from the UK.

Edited August 25 by Elp

[badgerchap]

5 minutes ago, Ratlet said:

The 103 also has a removable section to allow you to achieve focus with a bioscope without a Barlow.

I very nearly got one but a good deal on the tecno-sky came up so I snaffled that.  Really like the idea of binoviewing with a large fov though...

With regards to finder shoes, I got the extra but also got this:

https://www.svbony.com/sv211-203mm-saddle-handle-bar/

Honestly the handle is much more useful as you can mount an rdf or telrad or whatever further up the tube where it is more useful (in some cases)

The Askar has one of those handlebars as well as the extra shoe. These little things are what's tempting me...

[Elp]

If I were doing it again I'd get the 103 triplet, I was planning on it but a good used SF102 came up and I bought that instead. But my case is mostly imaging where you'll see the triplet correction more compared to a doublet.

[RobertI]

I also like the ability of the Askar 103 to binoview at low powers (although not sure whether absence of GPC introduces aberrations?). If you’re looking for views of doubles and clusters,  binoviewing is great - I really enjoyed looking at some doubles and open clusters with my BV and 102ED the other day (at around 57x with the GPC). The Askar does look nice, but I guess another consideration in a triplet like is cool down time? Perhaps not a huge issue in a smallish scope. FLO are currently offering the Askar for the same price as the Starfield. 

[badgerchap]

5 minutes ago, RobertI said:

I also like the ability of the Askar 103 to binoview at low powers (although not sure whether absence of GPC introduces aberrations?). If you’re looking for views of doubles and clusters,  binoviewing is great - I really enjoyed looking at some doubles and open clusters with my BV and 102ED the other day (at around 57x with the GPC). The Askar does look nice, but I guess another consideration in a triplet like is cool down time? Perhaps not a huge issue in a smallish scope. FLO are currently offering the Askar for the same price as the Starfield. 

Cooldown time's said to be around 30 mins, which is fine for me. 

[Ratlet]

29 minutes ago, badgerchap said:

Cooldown time's said to be around 30 mins, which is fine for me. 

Usually takes me more than 30 minutes to get setup lol.  Just take the scope out first so it has a bit longer to acclimatise.

You could probably arrange a swap for a 102EDR if you weren't happy with the 103.  See. Some comments on the focuser of the 103 but appears to be the usual 'needs fettling' rather than anything major.