4 Cameras ... opinions?!!!

[TareqPhoto]

Hi all,

It has been really long time since i posted here or even reading, got busy and carried out in life and astro became like forgotten passion for a while now.

Anyway, i am trying to get gear as possible to finish my setup i need, and the long i wait then the more options or opinions are happening which keep changing my plans, and i really don't mind waiting so long no buying or using until i get the right tools rather than using many gear and keep changing or replacing them if i can replace which means i didn't choose right from beginning, last 3-4 years were enough for me to show what should be done, i just need to choose correct wisely and plan it precisely. 

I have many scopes now, and i am trying to have something like 3-5 scopes to be very similar if not same give same or close FL/FOV, not like others using so all big difference FL/FOV scopes to match, i already covered most but i try to stick to a specific FOV/FL and having multiple imaging setup for it, so in this case wit those 3-5 scopes say i will choose 4 of them to use same exact camera sensor, then which version i should get as the 3 following options:

1. 3 Mono cameras and 1 OSC camera
2. 2 Mono cameras and 2 OSC cameras
3. 1 Mono camera and 3 OSC cameras

I can give more details for above if you need to give better answer or opinion, i just give the idea of what i want, living under Bortle 8/9 i know i always or mostly need longer integration time for most targets, and i don't have patience to finish one target in like 3-7 nights or even months to make it perfect, and most nights here are short time and targets don't stay in ideal/optimal zone in the sky for imaging, so it is almost like 2-4 hours only, this is not enough to cover all filters needed say LRGB/SHO or even half of that to make it nice, and i don't use or busy fast optics, so i depends on having multiple scopes and cameras of same/similar FL/FOV i mentioned before to capture different filter then i stack later.

[900SL]

Hi Tareq, i'm the guy formerly living in Riyadh.

From Bortle 8-9 I'd just go with three mono and one OSC. Good luck mounting, wiring, aligning and controlling that lot! Your flats panel is the size of a pool table, right? 

[TareqPhoto]

1 minute ago, 900SL said:

Hi Tareq, i'm the guy formerly living in Riyadh.

From Bortle 8-9 I'd just go with three mono and one OSC. Good luck mounting, wiring, aligning and controlling that lot! Your flats panel is the size of a pool table, right? 

Hi i forgot your name,

Nice to have someone in the region, not many around who are into astro, they are busy and hidden, anyway, thanks for posting here to me.

Ok, i will try to go with 3 mono and 1 OSC then, i will make sure all in use or at least 3 of them.

What is the problem with those lots? I mean i struggled with one setup in the past and it never fixed the time, but when i make one setup working it gives nice results but short data, so once i manage one setup it will be not a problem setup 3 as well, i will add more mounts and computers and remoting devices, since 2017 until last year i had only 1 mount of AZ-EQ6, only last year when I've got a budget i added two more mounts as portable, AZ-GTi, i can use my small setup with it, and it is easy to manage anyway just need time to make it excellent working then i leave it there, later this year i hope i might add another mount of EQ with higher capacity load but portable enough than my AZ-EQ6, with this i will be able to mount like 4-6 scopes setup, or something like 3 scopes and 2 lenses, wiring and aligning is not a big deal with my 4-5 years experience in issues, i bought guiding scopes too and i have plenty planetary cameras, and i have a person in my house who i can always use as a helper hands so i can make things faster.

[R26 oldtimer]

I like playing with equipment too, but to be honest, it's like an endless tweak.

Perhaps the best route is to concentrate on a decent one scope/camera setup, iron out all of its quirks, and image, image, image, process, process, process.

Edited January 31 by R26 oldtimer

[Elp]

Most people build up equipment over time as they get used to what works and what they want to image. If you do it all at once you'll run the risk of buying things you don't need. You state not wanting a fast system but speaking from experience, once you image F2 most other systems are way too slow even F4-5, I usually only use my refractors for RGB stars or small targets, all the emission nebulae is done via my fast systems be that telescope or camera lenses. If you're set on not imaging for long periods, AP is not really the right hobby, it's a long game, projects can be spread out over years. Even with my fast systems I still spend 10-20 hours on a target typically. I decided to upgrade as my last long period project took four months with one refractor, nearly 15 sessions and the end result wasn't as expected, but I put that down to the target and my local LP levels.

Edited January 31 by Elp

[TareqPhoto]

11 minutes ago, R26 oldtimer said:

I like playing with equipment too, but to be honest, it's like an endless tweak.

Perhaps the best route is to concentrate on a decent one scope/camera setup, iron out all of its quirks, and image, image, image, process, process, process.

I think i mentioned already that i tried for few years with one combo and regardless how good it is it didn't help much anyway, because i always need more and more time for better processing and results, so one setup will never be enough, and i don't have that kind of long patience to use one setup for several night to complete one target not easy or not done in 1 night, it means for many targets i will spend months and years, i already wasted years before in tests with one setup and never have nice result unless it is many nights which is not the case, i hate to spend like 3-10 nights for 1 target no matter what.

[900SL]

Hi Tareq, controlling multiple cameras is not straightforward if you are dithering, which you should be. 

You can dither a mono camera taking long exposures, but you gave to synch the other two.. and if also shooting OSC at the same time, the exposure time will be lower

[TareqPhoto]

3 minutes ago, Elp said:

Most people build up equipment over time as they get used to what works and what they want to image. If you do it all at once you'll run the risk of buying things you don't need. You state not wanting a fast system but speaking from experience, once you image F2 most other systems are way too slow even F4-5, I usually only use my refractors for RGB stars or small targets, all the emission nebulae is done via my fast systems be that telescope or camera lenses. If you're set on not imaging for long periods, AP is not really the right hobby, it's a long game, projects can be spread out over years. Even with my fast systems I still spend 10-20 hours on a target typically. I decided to upgrade as my last long period project took four months with one refractor, nearly 15 sessions and the end result wasn't as expected.

Thank you very much for answering me and also you revealed the issue in your post where i highlighted.

I once tried my Canon 135mm lens at F2 for Orion using Ha LRGB filters, imagine that i needed like 3 nights and it still wasn't good, so i am very sorry if the fast optics or system wasn't enough yet, i won't stop astro because of that but i won't spend more for less, maybe spending less for more, i mean Celestron F2 system are all so expensive really, so for one setup i can have like 2-3 cheaper setup, and i was lucky to buy my refractors and cameras at discounted nice prices, so i kept that way, then i saw few people who used those slow systems in this array method and managed to finish 1 target in like 1 night or mostly 2 nicely, in fact i did and it worked, so i wanted to add to make it even more effective, so instead one setup for like 10-20 hours which means several nights, why not say for example 4 individual setup each for like 3-4 hours which means i can manage to get 12-16 hours per night, so in 2 nights if serious i can have like 20-32 hours at best, i think that will be plenty for most targets if i need, later i could go less like using only 1 or two setup only to add little extra data, this is better than i spend like 4-6 nights every time per target and still not perfect maybe if i have issues in some of those nights.

[TareqPhoto]

19 minutes ago, 900SL said:

Hi Tareq, controlling multiple cameras is not straightforward if you are dithering, which you should be. 

You can dither a mono camera taking long exposures, but you gave to synch the other two.. and if also shooting OSC at the same time, the exposure time will be lower

I was thinking about this by going with say more mounts, so if i can have like 3 mounts where only one can carry 2 scopes then the other 2 mounts will have own one setup, so i manage those two first quickly and be ready then i spend little time before imaging to manage one setup for dithering and syncing until i can add one more extra mount, most likely for small setup with my two AZ-GTi i can use each just fine, i said i will add one more mount this year so then i will have total of 4 mounts, if i am lucky enough then i could buy another one later to have 5 where i use the best 3 first, and then i choose one of this AZ-GTi as 4th extra, i am planning to use my Canon EF 300mm lens to be with my other three scopes, so the lens can be used with AZ-GTi then, which scopes better using EQ mounts niece one.

Edited January 31 by TareqPhoto

[Elp]

If you didn't get an RGB result with M42 at F2 with a 135mm lens within one session you're doing something very wrong. It is a very bright target. How long in minutes did you spend on it? AP is around 70-80 percent effort post processing your data, if your skills are not up to a reasonable spec I suggest learning more. You can have the best equipment in the world but without PP skills all you'll see is a black screen with the data, but you can get results with average data and good skills and paid for PP software is not necessary to achieve this.

Edited January 31 by Elp

[Elp]

FYI, I also use multiple setups at once, they're a headache to setup and put away unless you have them permanently setup. Two is the most to comfortably setup from fresh, you have to factor in time taken to polar align, focus, set your plan, guidescope calibration etc etc. If they're permanently setup most of this time can be ignored.

Edited January 31 by Elp

[TareqPhoto]

6 minutes ago, Elp said:

If you didn't get an RGB result with M42 at F2 with a 135mm lens within one session you're doing something very wrong. It is a very bright target. How long in minutes did you spend on it? AP is around 70-80 percent effort post processing your data, if your skills are up to spec I suggest learning more. You can have the best equipment in the world but without PP skills all you'll see is a black screen with the data, but you can get results with average data and good skills.

RGB wasn't the problem although i spent like full night only for them because i was using the mono and trying to have multiple exposure for each due to HDR of Orion, and the weather didn't help that time as it was partial moving clouds so i ended up like having about 2.5 hours only as best clear, and because the focus keep changing and also i was using a fast lens and no AF motor so you can imagine how headache i was facing to make focusing perfect for each filter, and i spent another full night with f2 collecting Ha only which was nice actually, but then lum was a bit headache also as it was trial and error for best settings, it was brighter but i managed to get it right which also ate some of the night for it.

In general, on target made me to spend that much, and the lens is cheaper, but i won't capture all targets at 135mm anyway, now i have better scopes as in 2017-2020 i was using my only refractor of ST80 and not much of my lenses including 300mm f2.8, and in 2020 until today i was lucky to get astro cooled cameras at nice deals brand new, so between this and some people i saw using multiple setup successfully i was thinking why not, it is not about those people who failed using multiple setup with headache, but about those who did it successfully even with nightmare/headache, and your statement is true because i want to have nice data to process with, i downloaded some high quality data even short time and processing was amazing better than my longer time data but meh all ugly to play with, most nice data under bad LP are hours long, it is very simple, either many setup as many can for less nights or so fast systems or just slow average setup one and spend nights over nights over nights much more to collect data, no solution that those, i chose to go with multiple average speed systems.

[Elp]

Mono imaging will generally take longer over a project even though it's technically faster than OSC, it does for me anyway. I don't change filters during a session as it eats up time, and less time makes the data noisier. I also don't refocus, and focus manually on everything. So bare minimum doing narrowband takes two (HOO) or three (SHO) sessions. For quick single session images I use a OSC camera. I stopped thinking in my mind to rush things, and finishing projects when the data has been acquired, even if it take a few years to finish, trust me, it'll enable you to rest easier.

I have done one hour images with my Hyperstar, but prefer to gather more data before finishing an image.

Edited January 31 by Elp

[Space Oddities]

I have to agree with Elp. If you can't achieve anything in 2 or 3 hours, I don't think 8 or 20 hours will bring you anything more, and I can't imagine what 4 setups running at once would require in terms of logistics...

Just to give you a humble example of what a highly impatient astrophotographer, who is still learning PixInsight, using average equipment from a Bortle 7/8 zone can do.

• This is 1 hour and 15 minutes worth of exposures at f/4.9 in mono/LRGB: https://www.instagram.com/p/CgYswWes-_0/
• This is 1 hour and 40 minutes at f/5.5 with an OSC camera and a dual narrowband filter : https://www.instagram.com/p/CkVkxUKsVPO/
• This is a whooping 3 hours at f/4.9 in mono/SHO : https://www.instagram.com/p/CflHsI3M0VW/
• This is 7.5 hours in 2 nights, so less than 4 hours per night for each panel of the mosaic: https://www.instagram.com/p/CzCKXRvs_ja/

Now, you might argue that adding more time would improve the pictures. Yes it would if you pixel peep, but not much to be honest. For example, here is NGC7000 again but this time in SHO. Also at f/4.9, just cropped in a bit. 13 hours of exposures in total, but I don't find it any better than the LRGB version that has only 1h15 worth of photons: https://www.instagram.com/p/CgdqYRZs8Aj/

 

[TareqPhoto]

11 minutes ago, Elp said:

Mono imaging will generally take longer over a project even though it's technically faster than OSC, it does for me anyway. I don't change filters during a session as it eats up time, and less time makes the data noisier. I also don't refocus, and focus manually on everything. So bare minimum doing narrowband takes two (HOO) or three (SHO) sessions. For quick single session images I use a OSC camera. I stopped thinking in my mind to rush things, and finishing projects when the data has been acquired, even if it take a few years to finish, trust me, it'll enable you to rest easier.

I have done one hour images with my Hyperstar, but prefer to gather more data before finishing an image.

With changing filter it is always headache without an AF installed, and don't forget to take dark frames for each exposure even once for all three filters if same temp and settings, but i have to take flat frame for each filter, in the past i wait until morning to do that using daylight sky, so in the past i had issues and only recently years i started to solve most of them, but with that time passed until now i managed to add more gear, then my plan changed, i got my new scope like several weeks ago and i will add it to my other two same scope i bought back in 2021-2022, only need to add third same camera i use for both same scopes [IMX571 mono and OSC], and also my 300mm f2.8 lens which i can add 1.4x teleconverter then it will be in almost similar FOV of my two scopes and the new scope i can buy a reducer to also make it same, then all what i need is just two more same IMX571 cameras, just i ask which two to add now, either two mono or two OSC or one mono and one OSC, one OSC i will only use it for RGB data alone with no filters changing, only RGB, but i also have a dual Nband filter [L-Ultimate], means either another OSC or using this one i have with broadband data which means more time also, a third OSC i was thinking about something like a dual band filter with OIII and SII or SII and Hb for example, L-Ultimate as you know is Ha/OIII.

[Elp]

6 minutes ago, Space Oddities said:

example

These images are quite fantastic. I also agree about the added time, you anticipate you'd see more, but it hardly makes a difference other than minimising the noise. That is unless you're after that very faint signal or dust, then the added time is usually the only way to reveal it, or image from somewhere darker.

Edited January 31 by Elp

[Elp]

Personally, I'd start with one system. And get it working well, so much so that it can be setup with zero issue and you get reliable results EVERY time. Then think of the next one.

The only filter I use with OSC is a luminence or the lextreme. All narrowband specific data is done via mono.

[Space Oddities]

16 minutes ago, Elp said:

These images are quite fantastic. I also agree about the added time, you anticipate you'd see more, but it hardly makes a difference other than minimising the noise. That is unless you're after that very faint signal or dust, then the added time is usually the only way to reveal it, or image from somewhere darker.

Thanks! I have to admit NoiseXTerminator really helped here. And it made me realise that short exposures are actually viable in 2024, even with average editing skills. I'm still struggling, but each night is a valuable lesson!

[TareqPhoto]

27 minutes ago, Space Oddities said:

I have to agree with Elp. If you can't achieve anything in 2 or 3 hours, I don't think 8 or 20 hours will bring you anything more, and I can't imagine what 4 setups running at once would require in terms of logistics...

Just to give you a humble example of what a highly impatient astrophotographer, who is still learning PixInsight, using average equipment from a Bortle 7/8 zone can do.

• This is 1 hour and 15 minutes worth of exposures at f/4.9 in mono/LRGB: https://www.instagram.com/p/CgYswWes-_0/
• This is 1 hour and 40 minutes at f/5.5 with an OSC camera and a dual narrowband filter : https://www.instagram.com/p/CkVkxUKsVPO/
• This is a whooping 3 hours at f/4.9 in mono/SHO : https://www.instagram.com/p/CflHsI3M0VW/
• This is 7.5 hours in 2 nights, so less than 4 hours per night for each panel of the mosaic: https://www.instagram.com/p/CzCKXRvs_ja/

Now, you might argue that adding more time would improve the pictures. Yes it would if you pixel peep, but not much to be honest. For example, here is NGC7000 again but this time in SHO. Also at f/4.9, just cropped in a bit. 13 hours of exposures in total, but I don't find it any better than the LRGB version that has only 1h15 worth of photons: https://www.instagram.com/p/CgdqYRZs8Aj/

 

This is 2.5 hours with just 1 filter Ha

https://scontent.ffjr1-4.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/243098154_3168453770131935_8206294627475278513_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=OCK7lc4ucbUAX-PfQXU&_nc_ht=scontent.ffjr1-4.fna&oh=00_AfD8f1gGhqs2-ixkpPWqnTz98MIsIk6XLf0M_labHu_ZAA&oe=65BFD4F7

 

And this is about 3.5 hours [3 hours and 35 minutes] two filters Ha and OIII together

https://scontent.ffjr1-3.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/191574542_3066752660302047_8750649519069809470_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=7f8c78&_nc_ohc=FApiiv_SLR0AX-gzxr9&_nc_ht=scontent.ffjr1-3.fna&oh=00_AfBz6xgppuCzmf1Lr3gc7kXpfwiDB3CgFJv9KdEz1fgVkw&oe=65E231C4

 

And this is 5.5 hours of 3 filters of SHO.

https://scontent.ffjr1-6.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/266731458_3225618204415491_963046389691935402_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=wFbyYd8v2x0AX9BAVKJ&_nc_ht=scontent.ffjr1-6.fna&oh=00_AfDmx7d5c4aVvEhEEt2c44JKylZsUMwWEFBXaRHz3jXVwg&oe=65C022A8

 

First one with Askar FRA400 without a reducer, the second one is my new scope which i bought it again of 90mm triplet as my first ever triplet APO to have, and third is my doublet 60mm ED which also i bought it again also new addition.

[TareqPhoto]

27 minutes ago, Elp said:

Personally, I'd start with one system. And get it working well, so much so that it can be setup with zero issue and you get reliable results EVERY time. Then think of the next one.

The only filter I use with OSC is a luminence or the lextreme. All narrowband specific data is done via mono.

Now after spending those years i am not willing to reset with one setup again, i mean i should spend time in the past with one mastering it and managing it with zero issues, but it sounds i had issues in all of my setup and not only one part, so by the time i enhance one part to another i realized i bought more, so then i can't just stand using one setup for like 1 year or even half year while watching my other 10 scopes waiting to be used, so 1 year one setup and second year 2 setup? Then when i will use say those 11 scopes, say 8 if we neglect the two achro and one Mak.

[TareqPhoto]

11 minutes ago, Space Oddities said:

Thanks! I have to admit NoiseXTerminator really helped here. And it made me realise that short exposures are actually viable in 2024, even with average editing skills. I'm still struggling, but each night is a valuable lesson!

in 2017 until 2020 i was struggling with my achro scope and DSLR lens and no APO or ED doublet scope, and that time no BXT or NXT or SXT, and i wasn't good with deconv of PixInsight really, and bad gradient wasn't easy to remove for me to learn it, the data itself wasn't that great to bother with anyway, so i decided i have to stop and make complete setup first then i can worry about how good data is before processing.

[Elp]

15 minutes ago, TareqPhoto said:

This is

These are pretty great also.

You mentioned you had issues, did you not resolve them before moving onto a different setup? If you've got the space for it and funds, by all means try and setup more. But do them one by one, get one working perfect or near enough, then the next. You might find you end up favouring one setup over all others, but will have specific equipment to image specific things too.

[TareqPhoto]

6 minutes ago, Elp said:

These are pretty great also.

You mentioned you had issues, did you not resolve them before moving onto a different setup? If you've got the space for it and funds, by all means try and setup more. But do them one by one, get one working perfect or near enough, then the next. You might find you end up favouring one setup over all others, but will have specific equipment to image specific things too.

Thank you very much

You saw that second one of the Crescent? I did a second test of that scope again on the Pelican and it was amazing really nice with SHO, but i needed at least 2 nights, took my time to process and by my mistake i didn't save the master stacked one so i didn't try again, then i stopped as i knew that the setup worked and i continued with planetary and recently since last year with solar imaging so i didn't get back to DSO, i got an offer nice price for a new scope so now i continue to go with more setup for DSO while i am still using or testing them, i resolved the issues slowly one by one until today so that i didn't stop buying while i am still resolving them and testing, once i have all or most setup ready then i am back out to put them at best, i don't want to mention another issues in my life that also affected my astrophotography and other hobbies in general, the point is while i am waiting to get ready for imaging i just came across to nice prices and offers for gear, i won't miss those only to first test what i have, the policy is "Buy now with offers, use/test later, you are the winner".

Edited January 31 by TareqPhoto

[TareqPhoto]

The new scope is already here, i can use it as separate alone different scope, or as additional be it as main or backup to what i have but need to use a reducer to match, so sooner or later i have to buy another camera for it rather than i swap a camera from one scope to another, my two 90mm triplets will be better to be connected with cameras after i calculated the back focus and leave it there, it is also headache to keep moving the camera and whatever filters from one scope to another, i will have to do that anyway with many scopes i have, so i try to fix one FOV setup then adding more to that, my 90mm with 0.8x reducer giving nice FL of 432mm to most targets, and with APS-C sensor it is even nicer, so i try now to match my new 106mm to that, i came with 0.75x reducer, but i will buy 0.6x reducer to give me 420mm, with APS-C it is similar close to 432mm with same sensor, if i can use my 300mm 2.8 lens with 1.4x that also will give me 420mm, so i can have two scopes at 432mm and one scope and a lens at 420mm, i want to use same camera sensor with all, i already have two IMX571 one mono and one OSC, for this 106+reducer i have to think about either a mono with Ha or OSC with L-Ultimate, then i have to decide what i can use that 300+1.4x with and for.

[Elp]

You'd have to decide what you want to do in terms of what you want to image DSO wise. OSC narrowband filters especially the newer HA/O3 and S2/O3 ones have closed the gap between choosing between mono and OSC. If I were doing real colour or galaxies, I'd err towards OSC and just use a luminence filter with it (unless a UV/IR filter is built into the camera). I like how clean mono data is to work with though, and due to LP mono is better for me so I use it much more often.

Edited January 31 by Elp