Help needed for first telescope...please?

[drdre2030]

Background: My 10 year old daughter has had a fascination with space for a little while next and so looking at a cheap option starter telescope to see if it something she will continue to be interested in, or just a phase. I've not used a telescope since I was probably her age either, so basically know nothing!

Options current considering: 

• Celestron Zhumell Z100 - £65/70ish (almost new)
• KONUS Konusmotor 500 - £30 (second hand)
• SkyWatcher Skyhawk 114/1000 - £45/50 (second hand)

Help needed: What would you suggest is best value? I will be learning to use it with her, main focus will be to simply observe although would be nice to take some photos, I don't believe without spending a good chunk more any are particularly good options for that. 

Thank you in advance to any advice given. 😁

Edited September 22, 2023 by drdre2030
Crossing out the photo element, as I know won't get anything good enough for that.

[Elp]

Cheap, easy, astronomy and if you lump imaging into it definitely do not play with each other.

For simplicity, up your budget to the ZWO Seestar and it'll fit your criteria. If you don't get on with it, it'll sell easily. Trouble is getting one ATM due to a long waitlist, even amongst astronomers with serious rigs already.

The only major limitation is it's focal length so planets will be tiny.

As you're starting out, you might find any other option frustrating.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Elp

[drdre2030]

16 minutes ago, Elp said:

Cheap, easy, astronomy and if you lump imaging into it definitely do not play with each other.

For simplicity, up your budget to the ZWO Seestar and it'll fit your criteria. If you don't get on with it, it'll sell easily. Trouble is getting one ATM due to a long waitlist, even amongst astronomers with serious rigs already.

The only major limitation is it's focal length so planets will be tiny.

As you're starting out, you might find any other option frustrating.

Thanks. As stated I am accepting that imaging would need more budget. Firstly, if they are hard to get that doesn't start well as want it for her birthday in just over 3 weeks. Secondly, that is not upping a budget, seems the Seestar is a circa £550 telescope! That's potentially 10x more than expecting to spend, like I don't mind spending a bit more say upto £100. But certainly not £500+.

[bosun21]

I would be looking at something like a Skywatcher Heritage 100P for your daughter. It’s a decent little scope but comes in around £129.

[Elp]

Cheap telescopes from experience aren't usually worth the hassle. One of the main issues is the mount and tripod they're supplied with, not worth the material cost as they'll vibrate and not settle down which will make focusing, even looking through it a shaky experience. A slight breeze, even walking around it will have the same effect. That's of course if the telescope is built well in the first place, if not you'll struggle to see anything at all.

Have a read of First Light Optics this forums sponsor, they have a starter scope section on their site. Many people here will recommend a dobsonian telescope, as it's easy to point, has large aperture for little outlay. The right scope as some will suggest can improve the experience.

Whatever option you choose other than the one I've suggested, you will require patience and the ability to fault find. It unfortunately isn't just a point and immediately gratification hobby, finding targets manually you'll find a challenge initially but enjoyable (it's also easier if you've got a stellarium at hand on your mobile for example) if you have a long term interest in the stars.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Elp

[drdre2030]

6 minutes ago, bosun21 said:

I would be looking at something like a Skywatcher Heritage 100P for your daughter. It’s a decent little scope but comes in around £129.

Thanks bosun21, this is why I had the Zhumell Z100 on the list as its around half the price of the 100p and like the 100p seemed to have positive reviews about it too. What would you say the pros and cons vs the 2 are?

6 minutes ago, Elp said:

Cheap telescopes from experience aren't usually worth the hassle. One of the main issues is the mount and tripod they're supplied with, not worth the material cost as they'll vibrate and not settle down which will make focusing, even looking through it a shaky experience. A slight breeze, even walking around it will have the same effect. That's of course if the telescope is built well in the first place, if not you'll struggle to see anything at all.

Have a read of First Light Optics this forums sponsor, they have a starter scope section on their site. Many people here will recommend a dobsonian telescope, as it's easy to point, has large aperture for little outlay. The right scope as some will suggest can improve the experience.

Whatever option you choose other than the one I've suggested, you will require patience and the ability to fault find. It unfortunately isn't just a point and immediately gratification hobby, finding targets manually you'll find a challenge initially but enjoyable (it's also easier if you've got a stellarium at hand on your mobile for example) if you have a long term interest in the stars.

I appreciate that, but the budget doesn't allow much, and likewise my figure is if we don't spend much on it we can probably end up selling it on in time for very little loss. Had a look at that option you provided and looks amazing! Not sure it 'feels' like a telescope to me, as all automated, and electronic. My memories are of using starguides and working out where certain stars were and trying to get in view what I wanted. Patience I can deal with, fault finding might be a little more annoying on top! 

Had a look on First Light Optics, and one of their options under their top ones is the SkyHawk-1145 which I believe (whilst a different optic) is similar to the Skyhawk 114/1000 I've got available locally to me. 

[malc-c]

Have a read of similar posts and you'll soon see that getting decent images requires a scope that is way above your budget.    Also you have no idea how long her interest is going to last, and most kids don't have the patience to wait for a scope to be set up etc.  The Skywatcher Heritage 100P as mentioned above is an ideal starter scope for kids.  It will resolve Jupiter and a good three of its moons, but only as a large dot surrounded by smaller dots, so don't go thinking you will see a large disk with banding and the great red spot.  Point it at a gibbous Moon and it will give a very good image that will wow her (it did when my Nephew  used one of these scopes when he was 9).

Nice to see you are thinking logically, so should she grow out of the interest you can sell it and recover some of the cost.

[LandyJon]

I'd look on Facebook Marketplace if you haven't already, if she loses interest after a few goes you can always put it back on there for the same money you paid and find something else for her.

SCTs (Schmit-Cassegrain) have very long focal lengths in a compact tube so they'll give good views of the planets, a quick look theres a Celestron 4SE around £250 near me, the bigger ones go over £500 last I saw.

Newtonians are bulky and the eyepiece sits high off the ground,, so might be more awkward for a youngster.

Refractors are small units but at your budget as others have said, likely have a flimsy tripod that would be an unstable viewing experience.

End of the day, you'll get your money back on 2nd hand and if she takes to it you can upgrade bits over time.

 

[Elp]

I think a tabletop dobsonian, or a larger one on its rocker box base will be more stable. The thing you need to have in mind with a long focal length is trying to find and centre a target becomes much more difficult as you are more "zoomed in" to the field, so a slight minor nudge of the scope will be massive in the eyepiece (mechanical slow motion controls help in this regard). Your target will also drift across the eyepiece field of view quicker due to Earths rotation so you'll have to adjust the scope position every few seconds. I've got a long focal length (1500mm) scope and also a short (360mm), I very much prefer the shorter focal length due to this. I can usually put up with the longer FL scope when planetary viewing as I have goto mounts which track.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Elp

[drdre2030]

9 minutes ago, malc-c said:

Have a read of similar posts and you'll soon see that getting decent images requires a scope that is way above your budget.    Also you have no idea how long her interest is going to last, and most kids don't have the patience to wait for a scope to be set up etc.  The Skywatcher Heritage 100P as mentioned above is an ideal starter scope for kids.  It will resolve Jupiter and a good three of its moons, but only as a large dot surrounded by smaller dots, so don't go thinking you will see a large disk with banding and the great red spot.  Point it at a gibbous Moon and it will give a very good image that will wow her (it did when my Nephew  used one of these scopes when he was 9).

Nice to see you are thinking logically, so should she grow out of the interest you can sell it and recover some of the cost.

I've removed the mention of photos, as clearly wasn't clear enough that I know photos were out of realism. Good to know, and not expecting a first scope, especially on a tight budget, to get anywhere like seeing anything too amazing. If she gets into it, then we can look in the future at upgrading. We did similar that last year she really wanted to learn to standup paddleboard, so tried it, got a cheap (but good value) starter board, and she loved it so this year we got her a new, child friendly board. Since, been out and done many trips including through a local coral on the lowest tide of the year - she got up at 530am to do it - so perhaps not quite most kids (her attitude might be though 🤣).

7 minutes ago, LandyJon said:

I'd look on Facebook Marketplace if you haven't already, if she loses interest after a few goes you can always put it back on there for the same money you paid and find something else for her.

SCTs (Schmit-Cassegrain) have very long focal lengths in a compact tube so they'll give good views of the planets, a quick look theres a Celestron 4SE around £250 near me, the bigger ones go over £500 last I saw.

Newtonians are bulky and the eyepiece sits high off the ground,, so might be more awkward for a youngster.

Refractors are small units but at your budget as others have said, likely have a flimsy tripod that would be an unstable viewing experience.

End of the day, you'll get your money back on 2nd hand and if she takes to it you can upgrade bits over time.

 

Yeah I've looked on FB Marketplace, thus why 2 options I've listed are second hand. As figure better value for money, and likely if she decides its not for her to recoup majority if not all the funds on it. Thanks for the breakdown of types, that's really useful, hopefully height of eyepiece won't be too difficult for her, she is 5ft1 currently. I remember my telescope was a refractor and the tripod was terrible, I do a bit of photography and similar with lots of photography tripods too.

5 minutes ago, Elp said:

I think a tabletop dobsonian, or a larger one on its rocker box base will be more stable. The thing you need to have in mind with a long focal length is trying to find and centre a target becomes much more difficult as you are more "zoomed in" to the field, so a slight minor nudge of the scope will be massive in the eyepiece (mechanical slow motion controls help in this regard). Your target will also drift across the eyepiece field of view quicker due to Earths rotation so you'll have to adjust the scope position every few seconds. I've got a long focal length (1500mm) scope and also a short (360mm), I very much prefer the shorter focal length due to this. I can usually put up with the longer FL scope when planetary viewing as I have goto mounts which track.

Ah ok so the Skyhawk 114/1000 might be a terrible idea to start with! Sounds like something like the Heritage 100p or the Zhumell Z100 I listed might be the better options then to start with. Although reading doesn't seem much between the 2. It is easy looking at specs and going the 1000mm + higher magnification sounds good, but actually might mean everything is a lot harder. As did see a Celestron 114 for £30 on FB Marketplace, but that had terrible reviews on telescope specific sites so discounted that.

[LandyJon]

9 minutes ago, Elp said:

The thing you need to have in mind with a long focal length is trying to find and centre a target becomes much more difficult as you are more "zoomed in" to the field, so a slight minor nudge of the scope will be massive in the eyepiece (mechanical slow motion controls help in this regard). Your target will also drift across the eyepiece field of view quicker due to Earths rotation so you'll have to adjust the scope position every few seconds.

Good point, I'm used to being on tracking eq mounts for imaging, OP situation just reminded me how excited my 2 (5 and 7yo) were after seeing saturns rings when I put an eyepiece on the 9.25 ... took me a bit to find, manually moving an EQ6 with no finder scope, but I had tracking to keep on it.

The celestron SCTs come on goto alt az mounts so you can find targets easily and recentre them, if you find a cheap WiFi module the phone app can control it from a star map.

I guess its a trade off, and a question of budget, they are a bit more than you were thinking of spending too, even for the smaller 4"

Just giving you an alternative 

[Elp]

The heritage generally comes highly regarded from a lot of people, haven't used one myself but there's a trend.

[LandyJon]

Also you can take photos just by holding your phone camera close to the eyepiece of any telescope, they won't be great, but a nice reminder of things you've looked at together.

There's also cheap phone holder clamps on amazon that attach your phone to an eyepiece, so don't totally dismiss the idea of getting some pics 🙂

[drdre2030]

5 minutes ago, Elp said:

The heritage generally comes highly regarded from a lot of people, haven't used one myself but there's a trend.

Yeah hopefully for the right reasons. But seems many mentions too.

5 minutes ago, LandyJon said:

Also you can take photos just by holding your phone camera close to the eyepiece of any telescope, they won't be great, but a nice reminder of things you've looked at together.

There's also cheap phone holder clamps on amazon that attach your phone to an eyepiece, so don't totally dismiss the idea of getting some pics 🙂

I've got a tripod, which I could work a way to connect the phone to, or probably better I've got a Nikon D5500 that could be set up too. Yeah in honesty, just as you say some memories, and for her to share/keep on her phone too.

[LandyJon]

5 minutes ago, drdre2030 said:

I've got a Nikon D5500 that could be set up too.

Just need a T adapter, attaches to the camera instead of its lens and makes it fit in a 1.25" eyepiece socket, they're £15 ish

It'd need some kind of remote shutter (cable/wireless) or delayed shutter ... basically touching the camera to expose introduces movement and blurs any image.

But yeah, get a scope and get her interested first.

[M40]

I'm going to +1 for the heritage 100P or the ursa major 102. Both above budget I know but both will give a wow when you look at the moon so would be my suggested first telescope.

Both are in stock at flo, the ursa major has a much longer focal length giving better views of the moon, to beat it you would need to use the barlow with the heritage. The downside of the ursa major is its heavier. All the best.

[drdre2030]

6 minutes ago, LandyJon said:

Just need a T adapter, attaches to the camera instead of its lens and makes it fit in a 1.25" eyepiece socket, they're £15 ish

It'd need some kind of remote shutter (cable/wireless) or delayed shutter ... basically touching the camera to expose introduces movement and blurs any image.

But yeah, get a scope and get her interested first.

Brilliant, that makes sense. I do have a wireless shutter for the camera too.

4 minutes ago, M40 said:

I'm going to +1 for the heritage 100P or the ursa major 102. Both above budget I know but both will give a wow when you look at the moon so would be my suggested first telescope.

Both are in stock at flo, the ursa major has a much longer focal length giving better views of the moon, to beat it you would need to use the barlow with the heritage. The downside of the ursa major is its heavier. All the best.

Yeah I don't mind going to circa £100 if it is going to be worth it. Not sure the weight bothers me too much as will probably live in my office at the end of the garden anyways, although the weight is not something I had thought about or checked. Thanks.

[Mandy D]

2 minutes ago, drdre2030 said:

Brilliant, that makes sense. I do have a wireless shutter for the camera too.

I highly recommend that you use "Muppet" mode (Mup - Mirror Up) when shooting with a telescope and remote. First click lifts the mirror, then you wait two or more sceonds to allow the rig to settle after the heavy clunk of the mirror and then finally release the shutter with a second click. The mirror dropping back down takes place after the shutter has closed, so it does not matter how much it all shakes at this point.

I call it muppet mode as I always forget that I am in that mode, so press the shutter release once and nothing happens, so I switch the camera off and try again. Eventually, after several failed attempts, I realise and feel like a right muppet!

[StevieDvd]

The Celestron Zhumell Z100 looks almost the same as the SW Heritage 100 so at the prices you mentioned would be a good choice. I'd check to see if it can also be mounted on a tripod (the whole thing) as the Heritage can be.

The experience of setting up a cheap EQ scope (which can be difficult for first timers) and they are usually flimsier can be off-putting.  So a simpler Alt/Az like the small dobsonians can help.

[bosun21]

2 hours ago, drdre2030 said:

Thanks bosun21, this is why I had the Zhumell Z100 on the list as its around half the price of the 100p and like the 100p seemed to have positive reviews about it too. What would you say the pros and cons vs the 2 are?

The Zhumell if it's in good condition is a good option similar to the Heritage 100. Both have parabolic mirrors. Check if it comes with any eyepieces and finder scope etc. If it does then it's all good.

[doublevodka]

Pretty sure both the Zhummel and Heritage are the same scope, made by the same supplier in China with different branding when they come out of the factory.

I went through a similar thing with my daughter when she was a little younger, although I had a shaky old long refractor at the time on an eq mount, it was surprising how quickly she could get it on target with the moon and keep it there with the slow motion controls, that said I wouldn't recommend it.

I'm a big fan of FB Marketplace for bargains, just check everything is fairly clean and no obvious signs of abuse such as dents, scratches etc and the optics are fairly clean (a little dust is fine)

At 5' 1" she could probably use most of the popular dobsonians honestly, a Skywatcher Heritage 130 or 150 would be totally managable too. Just bear in mind with any of the mini dobs you'll need to stand it on something sturdy, I use a 3 legged stool from Ikea for my Orion Starblast 4.5 for example, and another to sit on.

A quick search on FB shows there are a few about at the moment in various sizes, avoid the 76 if you can 100 and above have better mirrors generally, good luck with the search 👍

 

[drdre2030]

3 hours ago, StevieDvd said:

The Celestron Zhumell Z100 looks almost the same as the SW Heritage 100 so at the prices you mentioned would be a good choice. I'd check to see if it can also be mounted on a tripod (the whole thing) as the Heritage can be.

The experience of setting up a cheap EQ scope (which can be difficult for first timers) and they are usually flimsier can be off-putting.  So a simpler Alt/Az like the small dobsonians can help.

Think as others have said probably the same factory made and different branding/minor variances. Can't see any sources that allow it to be but I do have a fairly solid exterior table that has garden spikes on it.

2 hours ago, bosun21 said:

The Zhumell if it's in good condition is a good option similar to the Heritage 100. Both have parabolic mirrors. Check if it comes with any eyepieces and finder scope etc. If it does then it's all good.

Thanks, yeah it's an open box/customer return so even has a warranty too as from a retailer. States it comes with everything...but will check! 

2 hours ago, doublevodka said:

Pretty sure both the Zhummel and Heritage are the same scope, made by the same supplier in China with different branding when they come out of the factory.

I went through a similar thing with my daughter when she was a little younger, although I had a shaky old long refractor at the time on an eq mount, it was surprising how quickly she could get it on target with the moon and keep it there with the slow motion controls, that said I wouldn't recommend it.

I'm a big fan of FB Marketplace for bargains, just check everything is fairly clean and no obvious signs of abuse such as dents, scratches etc and the optics are fairly clean (a little dust is fine)

At 5' 1" she could probably use most of the popular dobsonians honestly, a Skywatcher Heritage 130 or 150 would be totally managable too. Just bear in mind with any of the mini dobs you'll need to stand it on something sturdy, I use a 3 legged stool from Ikea for my Orion Starblast 4.5 for example, and another to sit on.

A quick search on FB shows there are a few about at the moment in various sizes, avoid the 76 if you can 100 and above have better mirrors generally, good luck with the search 👍

 

They look almost exactly the same so figure you're right. 

Thanks, the Zhummel is from a retailer so should be clean! I've not the bullet and purchased it, if it's not good or missing stuff then can return it at least.

 

I'll set up some FB marketplace alerts too so if anything good comes up I'll know. 

[Louis D]

7 hours ago, drdre2030 said:

My 10 year old daughter has had a fascination with space for a little while next and so looking at a cheap option starter telescope to see if it something she will continue to be interested in, or just a phase. I've not used a telescope since I was probably her age either, so basically know nothing!

Hopefully, @PeterStudz will chime in.  I believe he has a daughter in the same general age range and recently purchased a telescope for the two of them to explore the skies together with.

[PeterStudz]

@Louis D is correct. I/we started out at the end of 2020 when my then 9yr old daughter started getting into astronomy and wanted a telescope for Christmas. I thought that this would be a great thing to do together, which it turned out to be. But it is was far from easy sailing. Someone on this forum said that “astronomy is a hobby that rewards patience” and this is very true.

At the time there was a chronic shortage of telescopes. I wanted a small table top Dob but just could not get anything new or second hand. So I ended up getting her a Skywatcher Skyhawk 1145p. Now, this is a step-up from the Skyhawk 114/1000 that you mention but it’s still totally inappropriate for a young kid. I did know that, but thought if it didn’t work out we could sell it and get something more appropriate later on. Interestingly we still have it. Although it’s been significantly upgraded as a grab-and-go plus travel scope. We’ve even taken it on an aircraft.

The picture in my profile is of my daughter plus telescope on Christmas Day. I can’t remember much about that Christmas, but looking at the moon with Alice on Christmas night sticks in my mind as if it were yesterday. Just the enthusiasm was fantastic.

Several months later we got hold of a Skywatcher 200p Dob for free via a member from this site. It needed some work but it’s been more than excellent. And just shows that with patience you don’t need to spend a lot of cash. To cut a long story short some things we’ve learnt…

Getting a small cheap telescope can be frustrating and if not careful might put you both off for life. Be patient and choose targets wisely. Alice is definitely a night owl and likes being outdoors which helps. But it’s certainly not something where you can stick her in the garden and assume she’ll be happy to get on with it. It’s something that we both do together. But personally I like that. 

A lot of astronomy in the UK is done in the winter months. Getting a young kid to sit out in the cold plus staying out long enough to get eyes use to the dark isn’t easy. One way I’ve got over this is to make the whole thing an event. Eg we’ve camped out in the garden (no tent), looked up at the constellations and looked for shooting stars. Watched for the International Space Station, toasted marshmallows, drunk hot chocolate, listened to the dawn chorus, watched for foxes and hedgehogs… the looking through the telescope just the icing on the cake. Camping also has the advantage that your eyes are always use to the dark. She’s also had astronomy based sleep-overs with friends. 

Don’t forget solar and viewing the sun in white light. You’ll need a decent solar filter (I made one) and MUST take precautions especially with kids around. But for us it’s been great. And a small telescope will work well. Also has the great advantage that it can be done in daylight and when it’s warm.

We’re in town with far too much light pollution (Bortle 7) so for us the moon and planets have been best. But for that you will need a more substantial telescope. Planets also have the advantage that they are relatively bright and on the whole you don’t need to get your eyes use to the dark.

We’ve also had a lot of fun taking pictures with a smartphone using a £10 adapter to hold it onto the eyepiece. The moon is an easy target to start with. 

Hope that helps!

[drdre2030]

Thanks @PeterStudz that was a VERY comprehensive post! 

Yeah it sounded like getting a cheap second hand unit might not be best to start with, as you said potentially putting us both off. Likewise the plan is for it to be something we do together, and some good ideas as she loves hot chocolates, camping, the great outdoors and similar stuff. 

I didn't know what bortle was, but just looked it up and I'm in bortle 5, just on the outskirts of bortle 4 by 500m, so easy enough to potentially go where a little less light pollution too. I'll just openly admit I've stalked some of your posts after you were tagged, and saw you mention Southampton...I'm in Bognor Regis. 

I never even thought of solar viewing! That's a great idea but 100% precautions.

Really appreciate your comment though and similar start as well. I've ordered the Celestron Zhumell Z100 (seems almost same as Heritage 100p), so hopefully be good enough start and see if there is enough interest before potentially taking a step up. 

Seems a great community here...so will be certainly sticking around! As will need all the help I can too. 🤣