What to buy next?

[Killpond]

Hey folks! I'm new here, and to the hobby, and I'd really like some advice on what equipment I should look at picking up.

I currently have a Fujifilm X-T5 with a 90mm f/2 lens and a 150-600mm f5.6 to f/8 lens.
The mount I have is the Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer GTi.

Since I purchased it I have unfortunetly had very few clear nights so I have no idea how well it can perform yet.

I'd like to focus on deep space galaxies and the one night I tried to get subs of M31 many of them had streaking stars (at 600mm). Is this just me being overaly optimistic with the focal length or do I need some kind of autoguiding before I can even atempt that? I'd taken 60 second subs and some came out well.

I live in an orange zone and I'm not sure what light polution filters, if any, I can get that would fit my camera or if I should even be expecting to get clear shots of M31 from here reguardless of filters.

I attached one image I managed to take with the 90mm f/2 lens (137mm full frame) but I can't recall what object it is since I had been taking a lot of shots that night just getting use to the mount.

Should I ditch the X-T5 and lens and go for a dedicated Askar 300 pro and camera with cooling or stick with it?

[Albir phil]

If you're just starting astro imaging it's best to use what you have and get use to it .Going into dedicated cameras is a different ball game .you have good mount ,best to use the 90mm FL is will be more forgiving on tracking than 600mm FL. I would start with 30sec exposure at 800iso take as many expo as you can .Hope this helps good luck👍

[Richard_]

I downloaded your image and uploaded to Astrometry.net to plate solve. If you're not familiar with this term, it means that your image is analyzed to determine where in the sky the image was taken. Here's the results:

https://nova.astrometry.net/user_images/8548453#annotated

If you follow the Declination and Right Ascension (RA) values, this lands you between Cygnus and Aquila constellation. Below is a screenshot within the Stellarium app on my phone with the same coordinates (please note that the box is configured for my setup). If you look at the corners of the box on the left and right you can see some red hazy features (likely clouds of dust or Hydrogen alpha) which you can also make out in your picture! Were you trying to image something specific or did you just point and shoot for a first try? 

For now, I'd reccomend that you keep trying with the 90mm prime lens. The shorter focal length will make it easier to find stuff in the sky and will make your Star Adventurer more forgiving in terms of polar alignment and tracking errors. Zooming in with the 600mm focal length will just exacerbate any inaccuracies so I'd avoid that for now. 

I've got an XT4 so I've also thought about the filter situation, but I've not seen any clip in filters for Fuji cameras. Optolong make the L-Pro filter which can work with Nikon and Canon cameras but not Fuji. I already had an existing astro camera prior to purchasing my XT4 so I've not used it for astrophotography... yet

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/light-pollution-reduction-imaging/optolong-l-pro-light-pollution-broadband-filter.html

 

[Killpond]

Thanks for the advice folks! I'll stick with the 90mm for now and see how I get on!

@Richard_ Thats amazing!! I think I've managed to do the same here?

Can't for the life of me recall what I was aiming at. I think it was just point it at the milkyway and pull the trigger?

[Richard_]

8 minutes ago, Killpond said:

Thanks for the advice folks! I'll stick with the 90mm for now and see how I get on!

@Richard_ Thats amazing!! I think I've managed to do the same here?

Can't for the life of me recall what I was aiming at. I think it was just point it at the milkyway and pull the trigger?

You got it! Some nearby targets are NGC 7000 (North America nebula), IC 5070 (pelican nebula) and The Veil nebula which can all be seen at 90mm focal length. Maybe you were aiming towards them? 

How are you controlling the Star Adventurer, is it by hand, using the synscan app on phone over wifi, or by an external device (like an ASI Air or a laptop/mini pc)?

[Elp]

I'd also stick with what you have. Don't get a filter yet, your cameras quantum efficiency is already hampered without adding in a filter which will reduce its sensitivity further by blocking out more signal.

Andromeda is fairly easily captured in around 5-10s exposures. My guess is you need to work on your polar alignment and tracking a bit more, you should be able to set your sidereal rate which will help fine tune any star streaking, you also need to make sure your payload is RA and Declination balanced, otherwise this will also lead to streaked stars.

Also learn to frame and point, if you've got a computer nearby you can take an image, transfer to computer or mobile and upload to astrometry.net and it will plate solve the image for you to tell you what you're pointing at. If your mount is well aligned with 2 or 3 star alignment your Goto's should be fairly good, you can use the LCD screen of your camera to centre your alignment stars.

If you're using a long focal length lens, do not underestimate the camera rotating under the load, unless you rig your mounting setup to have physical stops to stop your camera and lens from rotating, expect it to, especially when temperatures change.

If your mount doesn't have dithering settings built in (I'm guessing it won't as you're not autoguiding), make sure you slew your mount very slightly (we're talking 10-50 pixels, so minute) every five to ten minutes of time or so, when you stack this will reduce or eliminate hot pixel noise streaks in your stack. You don't necessarily have to do this to begin with, but keep in mind for future if you get a dark rain type pattern in your stack.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Elp

[Killpond]

43 minutes ago, Richard_ said:

You got it! Some nearby targets are NGC 7000 (North America nebula), IC 5070 (pelican nebula) and The Veil nebula which can all be seen at 90mm focal length. Maybe you were aiming towards them? 

How are you controlling the Star Adventurer, is it by hand, using the synscan app on phone over wifi, or by an external device (like an ASI Air or a laptop/mini pc)?

Good to know! I'm controling it with the Synscan app on my phone for now, but I have been looking at what other solutions I can use. I have a laptop with Windows on it but I'm thinking of installing Linux so I can use the same software as @Space Oddities uses in this post...

I checked today and Indi supports the X-T5 so it would allow me to control the camera via USB also BUT it feels like I could be going down a rabbit hole.

[Killpond]

40 minutes ago, Elp said:

I'd also stick with what you have. Don't get a filter yet, your cameras quantum efficiency is already hampered without adding in a filter which will reduce its sensitivity further by blocking out more signal.

Andromeda is fairly easily captured in around 5-10s exposures. My guess is you need to work on your polar alignment and tracking a bit more, you should be able to set your sidereal rate which will help fine tune any star streaking, you also need to make sure your payload is RA and Declination balanced, otherwise this will also lead to streaked stars.

Also learn to frame and point, if you've got a computer nearby you can take an image, transfer to computer or mobile and upload to astrometry.net and it will plate solve the image for you to tell you what you're pointing at. If your mount is well aligned with 2 or 3 star alignment your Goto's should be fairly good, you can use the LCD screen of your camera to centre your alignment stars.

If you're using a long focal length lens, do not underestimate the camera rotating under the load, unless you rig your mounting setup to have physical stops to stop your camera and lens from rotating, expect it to, especially when temperatures change.

If your mount doesn't have dithering settings built in (I'm guessing it won't as you're not autoguiding), make sure you slew your mount very slightly (we're talking 10-50 pixels, so minute) every five to ten minutes of time or so, when you stack this will reduce or eliminate hot pixel noise streaks in your stack. You don't necessarily have to do this to begin with, but keep in mind for future if you get a dark rain type pattern in your stack.

I'm just wondering if the X-T5 IBIS or the lens OIS could of caused the issue with streaking?

You are 100% correct about me getting more hands on time with the alignment. I've only managed to figure out how to do single star alignment right now and any GOTO commands need some level of manual correction once there.

The plate solving is something that really intrests me! If I can get the laptop hooked up to the camera, as mentioned in my last post, then it should be much eaiser to capture images on the fly and hopefully get software that will just do it all for me at the click of a button right?

When you talk about the camera rotating do you mean the glass inside the lenses (for my 150-600) shifting or something else? The 90mm lens is mounted on the camera that is in turn mounted to a Dovetail thats locked to the mount.

The point about slew'ing makes perfect sense and I will definitely try to start doing that!

Thanks @Elp!!

Edited August 31, 2023 by Killpond

[Killpond]

@Richard_ looks like this may be a better option "Indigosky" https://www.indigo-astronomy.org/indigo-sky.html

I have a Rasberry PI that I could install this on and connect to via my windows laptop. Sounds promising.

[Richard_]

11 minutes ago, Killpond said:

Good to know! I'm controling it with the Synscan app on my phone for now, but I have been looking at what other solutions I can use. I have a laptop with Windows on it but I'm thinking of installing Linux so I can use the same software as @Space Oddities uses in this post...

I checked today and Indi supports the X-T5 so it would allow me to control the camera via USB also BUT it feels like I could be going down a rabbit hole.

Yeah the camera support is a difficult one as astro software and manufacturers mostly cater for the Canon and Nikon cameras (in addition to dedicated astro cameras of course). I think that if you get your polar alignment spot on then slewing to a target with your 90mm focal length will allow you a higher error in Go-To. If possible, try and perform a polar alignment on Polaris rather than two or three star alignment (although you may have to do this if you don't have a view of Polaris). 

Here's a simulation I performed using astro tools. I put in the focal lengths of your 90mm and 600mm lenses and the approximate sensor size of your camera. The two boxes indicate the field of view of your camera when imaging M31 Andromeda using either lens. If you look at the readout at the bottom of the picture, at 90mm your field of view is 9.95° on the short side whilst at 600mm it is 1.5° on the short side. Let's say you performed a Go-To and you were out by 2°, then at 90mm this isn't a big deal whilst at 600mm you would shift over an image width away! When using just your eyeball and camera which isn't hooked up to plate solving software, it can be much quicker to find your target at lower focal lengths, it's easy to lose yourself in the sky with large focal lengths without plate solving and is another reason to avoid higher focal lengths for now. 

https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/

 

Regarding IBIS and OIS, I would turn these off and keep the camera in full manual mode. Remember to switch the aperture ring to manual as well! The image stabilization may try to counteract any sort of movement due to mount backlash or polar alignment error so best to keep it off. 

[Killpond]

13 minutes ago, Richard_ said:

Yeah the camera support is a difficult one as astro software and manufacturers mostly cater for the Canon and Nikon cameras (in addition to dedicated astro cameras of course). I think that if you get your polar alignment spot on then slewing to a target with your 90mm focal length will allow you a higher error in Go-To. If possible, try and perform a polar alignment on Polaris rather than two or three star alignment (although you may have to do this if you don't have a view of Polaris). 

Here's a simulation I performed using astro tools. I put in the focal lengths of your 90mm and 600mm lenses and the approximate sensor size of your camera. The two boxes indicate the field of view of your camera when imaging M31 Andromeda using either lens. If you look at the readout at the bottom of the picture, at 90mm your field of view is 9.95° on the short side whilst at 600mm it is 1.5° on the short side. Let's say you performed a Go-To and you were out by 2°, then at 90mm this isn't a big deal whilst at 600mm you would shift over an image width away! When using just your eyeball and camera which isn't hooked up to plate solving software, it can be much quicker to find your target at lower focal lengths, it's easy to lose yourself in the sky with large focal lengths without plate solving and is another reason to avoid higher focal lengths for now. 

https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/

 

Regarding IBIS and OIS, I would turn these off and keep the camera in full manual mode. Remember to switch the aperture ring to manual as well! The image stabilization may try to counteract any sort of movement due to mount backlash or polar alignment error so best to keep it off. 

I did find myself doing a merry dance of dropping the FL down to 150mm, refocusing, then aligning M31 then going back to 600mm and refocusing again.

[Elp]

3 hours ago, Killpond said:

about the camera rotating

If it's not all locked down super tight, and you don't have friction pads under the camera, the actual camera can rotate about its fixed 1/4 inch mounting point, especially with a heavy lens attached. I always wonder why camera equipment doesn't have two fixing points rather than one as this would solve this problem. I usually have two upstanding bolts against the camera body or around the lens to stop this rotation.

Regarding OIS, you shouldn't really be using this for astro and should be disabled if possible, and also use manual focus.

600mm is quite long, you can comfortably fit Andromeda full scale onto a 1 inch sensor at around 300mm. The longer your focal length the better your PA and tracking need to be.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Elp

[Space Oddities]

Hello!

Lots of good advice above! I agree with the main points: stick with what you have first; light pollution filters aren't worth it; don't use OIS or IBIS; stay at medium focal lengths for now, unless you're autoguiding.

Fuji cameras aren't very astro friendly, sadly: not many acquisition software support them natively, same with processing software (at least back in the day when I was using my Fuji camera, today it might be different?)

In the topic you linked, I used an ASIAIR to polar align and control the mount, autoguide and plate solve using the guide camera. For image acquisition I simply used the built in intervalometer in my Fuji camera. This worked fine, but lost a few subs because of dithering (the X-T3 doesn't know the mount is doing it). 

Honestly, the next thing you might want to buy, IMO, would be a guide scope/camera. With a laptop, Raspberry Pi or ASIAIR, you'd be able to use it to polar align the mount precisely, auto guide (which means longer subs, better signzl to noise ration, more keepers) and plate solve (3 star alignment not needed anymore!). That would also unlock the possibility to image emission nebulae with a dual narrowband filter for instance. However, keep in mind that it seriously complexifies your setup, since you need to bring a computer, learn a new software, etc. 

The company STC manufactures clip in duo narrowband filters for Fuji cameras, so you'd be able to place it between the lens and the sensor. They're only compatible with Fuji cameras though, so if you upgrade to a dedicated astro cam mater, you son't be able to use them. 
 

You should also invest in a Bahtinov mask, it really helps with focusing and they're cheap. Lots of 3D printed options out there!

Andromeda, Orion nebula, the Pleiades are great targets to start with. They're bright, big, easy to find and don't require any filter. NGC7000 is also nice but you'll need good skies. And of course the Moon, the Sun (with a proper solar filter!), and any comet that might visit us. 

I took the following pictures when I started astrophotography. I was using an X-T1 at the time, together with a SkyGuider Pro. Very simple setup. Certainly not APOD material, but you gotta start somewhere. And each of them taught me a valuable lesson (Andromeda taught me I should get a Bahtinov mask  )

If I can give you 1 last advice: one step at a time  You'll face frustration every now and then, even with the most advanced setup. Learn from your mistakes, and don't forget to enjoy the sky with your eyes too. 

 

 

[Killpond]

2 hours ago, Space Oddities said:

Hello!

Lots of good advice above! I agree with the main points: stick with what you have first; light pollution filters aren't worth it; don't use OIS or IBIS; stay at medium focal lengths for now, unless you're autoguiding.

Fuji cameras aren't very astro friendly, sadly: not many acquisition software support them natively, same with processing software (at least back in the day when I was using my Fuji camera, today it might be different?)

In the topic you linked, I used an ASIAIR to polar align and control the mount, autoguide and plate solve using the guide camera. For image acquisition I simply used the built in intervalometer in my Fuji camera. This worked fine, but lost a few subs because of dithering (the X-T3 doesn't know the mount is doing it). 

Honestly, the next thing you might want to buy, IMO, would be a guide scope/camera. With a laptop, Raspberry Pi or ASIAIR, you'd be able to use it to polar align the mount precisely, auto guide (which means longer subs, better signzl to noise ration, more keepers) and plate solve (3 star alignment not needed anymore!). That would also unlock the possibility to image emission nebulae with a dual narrowband filter for instance. However, keep in mind that it seriously complexifies your setup, since you need to bring a computer, learn a new software, etc. 

The company STC manufactures clip in duo narrowband filters for Fuji cameras, so you'd be able to place it between the lens and the sensor. They're only compatible with Fuji cameras though, so if you upgrade to a dedicated astro cam mater, you son't be able to use them. 
 

You should also invest in a Bahtinov mask, it really helps with focusing and they're cheap. Lots of 3D printed options out there!

Andromeda, Orion nebula, the Pleiades are great targets to start with. They're bright, big, easy to find and don't require any filter. NGC7000 is also nice but you'll need good skies. And of course the Moon, the Sun (with a proper solar filter!), and any comet that might visit us. 

I took the following pictures when I started astrophotography. I was using an X-T1 at the time, together with a SkyGuider Pro. Very simple setup. Certainly not APOD material, but you gotta start somewhere. And each of them taught me a valuable lesson (Andromeda taught me I should get a Bahtinov mask  )

If I can give you 1 last advice: one step at a time  You'll face frustration every now and then, even with the most advanced setup. Learn from your mistakes, and don't forget to enjoy the sky with your eyes too. 

 

 

Amazing advise @Space Oddities! I think I'm at one of these frustration moments right now

I formatted the laptop to Kubuntu and installed Indi, Ekos and Kstars. Got the X-T5 to shoot images but in greyscale using the "GPhoto library" but while trying to get it working in colour I managed to completely break the GPhoto lib and now it just crashes every time I start Indi via Ekos. No idea how where the settings are stored to revert them and you can only change the settings via the GUI once the application thats crashing is running 😕

So then I installed Indigo that comes with a PTP2 driver, this worked prefectly right out the box at first. It detected the camera settings and previews just worked in full res and colour! BUT then I noticed the shutter speed wasn't changing when I changed the exposure

So this is where I'm at right now. Good progress but a bit of a brick wall if I can't change the exposure to more than 1 second. I'm going to play around with it in the morning and see if I'm missing something.

 

[Killpond]

3 hours ago, Elp said:

If it's not all locked down super tight, and you don't have friction pads under the camera, the actual camera can rotate about its fixed 1/4 inch mounting point, especially with a heavy lens attached. I always wonder why camera equipment doesn't have two fixing points rather than one as this would solve this problem. I usually have two upstanding bolts against the camera body or around the lens to stop this rotation.

Regarding OIS, you shouldn't really be using this for astro and should be disabled if possible, and also use manual focus.

600mm is quite long, you can comfortably fit Andromeda full scale onto a 1 inch sensor at around 300mm. The longer your focal length the better your PA and tracking need to be.

I'll look in to getting a cage and/or a better mounting solution! Thanks for the tip!

[Elp]

A cheese plate works fairly well.

[AstroMuni]

9 hours ago, Killpond said:

I formatted the laptop to Kubuntu and installed Indi, Ekos and Kstars. Got the X-T5 to shoot images but in greyscale using the "GPhoto library" but while trying to get it working in colour I managed to completely break the GPhoto lib and now it just crashes every time I start Indi via Ekos. No idea how where the settings are stored to revert them and you can only change the settings via the GUI once the application thats crashing is running 😕

Have you tried posting your problem on the INDI forum? https://indilib.org/forum/index.html

Have you tried starting the Indiserver at the command line? or by using the web manager https://github.com/rlancaste/INDIWebManagerApp

Edited September 1, 2023 by AstroMuni

[Richard_]

9 hours ago, Killpond said:

Amazing advise @Space Oddities! I think I'm at one of these frustration moments right now

I formatted the laptop to Kubuntu and installed Indi, Ekos and Kstars. Got the X-T5 to shoot images but in greyscale using the "GPhoto library" but while trying to get it working in colour I managed to completely break the GPhoto lib and now it just crashes every time I start Indi via Ekos. No idea how where the settings are stored to revert them and you can only change the settings via the GUI once the application thats crashing is running 😕

So then I installed Indigo that comes with a PTP2 driver, this worked prefectly right out the box at first. It detected the camera settings and previews just worked in full res and colour! BUT then I noticed the shutter speed wasn't changing when I changed the exposure

So this is where I'm at right now. Good progress but a bit of a brick wall if I can't change the exposure to more than 1 second. I'm going to play around with it in the morning and see if I'm missing something.

 

Not sure about GPhoto library, but I know that with NINA you need to enable "debayer images" when previewing images shot with a colour camera, otherwise they will display as black and white. Is there an option for this? If the Fuji X-Trans sensors are not supported, this may not work because the Fuji X-Trans sensors don't use a typical RGGB Bayer pattern, they use a unique Bayer pattern. 

 

Regarding the shutter speed, did you set the exposure dial to "B" for bulb setting? If you define an exposure here, like 30s, then I don't believe you can override it in software or via an intervalometer. 

[Killpond]

12 hours ago, Richard_ said:

Not sure about GPhoto library, but I know that with NINA you need to enable "debayer images" when previewing images shot with a colour camera, otherwise they will display as black and white. Is there an option for this? If the Fuji X-Trans sensors are not supported, this may not work because the Fuji X-Trans sensors don't use a typical RGGB Bayer pattern, they use a unique Bayer pattern. 

 

Regarding the shutter speed, did you set the exposure dial to "B" for bulb setting? If you define an exposure here, like 30s, then I don't believe you can override it in software or via an intervalometer. 

Pretty sure I tried with and without debayer'ing. Just always came out grayscale.

[Killpond]

12 hours ago, AstroMuni said:

Have you tried posting your problem on the INDI forum? https://indilib.org/forum/index.html

Have you tried starting the Indiserver at the command line? or by using the web manager https://github.com/rlancaste/INDIWebManagerApp

I didn't post on the forum since I moved on to testing Indogo and that was working well with their driver.

Ekos was starting the server for me, but I guess I could try it manually and see if that gives any more information if I was to revisit using Indi.

[Killpond]

Here is a really poor stacked image I made of M31 from sub's I took a few days back. It was very poor conditions with lots of moon light.

[Killpond]

Thanks for all the help folks!!!

Last night had a window of clear sky and using my 90mm I managed to snap the Bode's Galaxy!

https://nova.astrometry.net/user_images/8555721#annotated

And the Pleiades

https://nova.astrometry.net/user_images/8555731#annotated

Edited September 2, 2023 by Killpond

[Killpond]

Took this of M13 last night with the 600mm but out of 30 x 2m subs I could only use 4 as the rest had trails.

[Richard_]

Looking good! There's no stopping you now Regarding your original post "what should I buy next", if you don't already have one I'd consider a Bahtinov mask to help you improve focus.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bahtinov-focus-masks/william-optics-bahtinov-mask-for-dew-shield-diameter-75mm-to-110mm.html

The mask I linked above is similar to the one I have used (mine are built into the dust cover of William Optics telescopes) and the transparent plastic let's more light in which can help on dimmer stars. Make sure you measure the outside diameter of your lens and choose a suitable size mask to fit. 

The way they work is that you place the mask over the front of your lens/telescope and take a picture of a bright star. You'll see an X shape with a line through the middle, and if it's directly in the centre then you are in focus. If the vertical line is offset to the left or right, it means you're out of focus so you should adjust focus and take another picture.

[Killpond]

Thanks @Richard_! And thanks again for all your help to date!

Really tempted to pick up this for guiding https://www.firstlightoptics.com/guide-cameras/zwo-asiair-plus-asi-120mm-mini-and-mini-guide-scope-bundle.html but I need to figure out how to mount it next to the X-T5.