Buying a second scope / EAA / Buying a third scope!!

[lawsio]

Hi all,

Firstly - long time member of the forum but, while I knew it'd been a while since I'd last been on, it seems my last post was 2015 so ... hello again! This forums always been a source of inspiration (and expenditure!) so I'm back for more...

I currently have a Skyliner 200p which I've had for a while (since 2015 I imagine since you guys sold it me!) and, although it's a great scope, I've moved a few times with it and for where I am now it probably isn't the most practical to use. The skies aren't quite as dark as they once were and I have high sided garden fences so it sits a bit too low to see a lot of the sky. Life's changes as well, as it does, and I don't really have time/energy to spend the small hours looking for small fuzzies, so I'm thinking of getting something that going to be better for short sessions going after lunar/planetary stuff, which I find the dobs a bit clumsy for. 

Assuming I stick with what I know with Skywatcher, The ones I'm currently looking at are the EvoStar 102 and 120. Obviously less aperture than what I have now, but a bigger f/ and a taller EQ mount which I think makes plants better for viewing/tracking. 

General questions to the group really - am I on the right track here? Will I notice a difference going from one to the other? Any advice on which of the two is a better option? Alternatives?

Any comments welcome! 

Edited August 22, 2023 by lawsio

[Peter Drew]

For "lunar and planetary stuff" I would seriously consider a Maksutov.     🙂

[lawsio]

17 minutes ago, Peter Drew said:

For "lunar and planetary stuff" I would seriously consider a Maksutov.     🙂

This is why I come to the forum! I know nothing at all about these, whats a good place to start in the 400-500 mark? Is one achievable in this range?

[lawsio]

12 minutes ago, lawsio said:

This is why I come to the forum! I know nothing at all about these, whats a good place to start in the 400-500 mark? Is one achievable in this range?

I've found this ... https://www.firstlightoptics.com/maksutov/sky-watcher-skymax-127-az5-deluxe.html

This sort of thing? AZ mount though...

Edited August 13, 2023 by lawsio

[bosun21]

I would go for the Skymax 127 go to mainly for its tracking ability. When viewing the planets you are generally using high magnification therefore the planets will be moving quickly through the FOV of the eyepiece. The tracking mount eliminates the constant need to keep nudging the scope to reacquire the target. They come in on budget also.

[Cosmic Geoff]

A Maksutov would make a good planetary scope, if you are looking for something fairly small and manageable.  You should be able to pick one with a mount that is within your budget.  A  150mm PL Newtonian and mount might be within your budget,  offering more aperture for the money but more bulky.

None of these are likely to give you planetary views as good as you'd get with your 200mm Dob (and an elevated stand).

[M40]

Hello lawsio and welcome back.

First off, you have the required posts so keep your eye on the for sale section, fingers crossed something will pop up.

The skywatcher skymax is great for solar system stuff and if the budget allows, the skymax127 seems to be a very well regarded starting point and will provide slightly better views that the 200. There is a field of view calculator in the astronomy tools at the top of the page, pop in your current telescope and using the same eyepiece pop in a couple of other telescopes to give you a bit of a comparison, treat it as a guide only though.

I note you say time is important, so maybe a goto is also the way to go. Initially I would look at the eq3 and 127 combo as I believe the mount can be upgraded to a goto at a later date as budget allows but please do confirm with flo.

All the best. 

 

[lawsio]

12 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

A Maksutov would make a good planetary scope, if you are looking for something fairly small and manageable.  You should be able to pick one with a mount that is within your budget.  A  150mm PL Newtonian and mount might be within your budget,  offering more aperture for the money but more bulky.

None of these are likely to give you planetary views as good as you'd get with your 200mm Dob (and an elevated stand).

Interesting the '(and an elevated stand)' part. Is that an option with this scope? I would have assumed it was far to big and heavy for a tripod to take it? Not sure the wife will let me get away with having it in a dome!

[lawsio]

12 minutes ago, M40 said:

Hello lawsio and welcome back.

First off, you have the required posts so keep your eye on the for sale section, fingers crossed something will pop up.

The skywatcher skymax is great for solar system stuff and if the budget allows, the skymax127 seems to be a very well regarded starting point and will provide slightly better views that the 200. There is a field of view calculator in the astronomy tools at the top of the page, pop in your current telescope and using the same eyepiece pop in a couple of other telescopes to give you a bit of a comparison, treat it as a guide only though.

I note you say time is important, so maybe a goto is also the way to go. Initially I would look at the eq3 and 127 combo as I believe the mount can be upgraded to a goto at a later date as budget allows but please do confirm with flo.

All the best. 

 

Thanks for this. I used to have a 114mm GOTO and it drove me mad, could never get it calibrated properly and it just showed me all sorts of random nonsense! Gather the technology has moved on since I had one 10 years ago and theyre a bit simpler to use now but I'd probably start on a normal EQ for now. 

The FoV calculator is great. Looks like the SkyMax will show planets a bit bigger, but not by much so it'll come down to practicality for our location.

 

 

 

[Cosmic Geoff]

11 hours ago, lawsio said:

Interesting the '(and an elevated stand)' part. Is that an option with this scope? I would have assumed it was far to big and heavy for a tripod to take it? Not sure the wife will let me get away with having it in a dome!

I meant make your own elevated stand e.g with concrete blocks and put the Dob mount on top of it.  Like a table-top Dob but on a larger scale.

The 8" Newtonian is not 'far too big and heavy for a tripod'.  You just have to buy a suitable mount and tripod (not cheap, alas), de-mount the Dob, fit it with tube rings and put it on the mount.  In practice it would be less bother to sell the Dob on and buy another Newt with the suitable mount as a package.  It's up to you to decide whether you want to do this and set up a heavy mount and tripod + tube assembly every time you use it, and pay out for a suitable mount (the most likely off the shelf solution would be a HEQ5 GoTo at around £1000)

Or did you mean the 8" OTA is too big and heavy for you to lift to shoulder height?

At the 8" size another option is to buy an 8" SCT with tripod mount (normally GoTo).  In terms of weight, size etc this would be much more user-friendly than a Newtonian or Dob.  Not cheap though.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Cosmic Geoff

[Carbon Brush]

I have used 8" & 10" reflectors on EQ5. Yes they have worked OK.
Though we always seek the more stable (heavier  & more money) mount.

Another vote for a 127Mak on a driven mount.

[lawsio]

This has made for an interesting conundrum now. Upgrade the 200p with an EQ5 mount or buy a 127Mak GOTO. 

Or buy an EQ5 mount and a 127Mak OTA separately and have both 🤪

[Carbon Brush]

To add to the confusion.
Keeping an object in the narrow field of a MAK calls for a driven mount.
If you want visual, or short duration photo, an AZ driven mount is OK. EQ for longer exposures & easier stacking/processing.
A mount packaged with a scope is usually undersized for photo use.

If it was me... But I already have more than two scopes....I would...

Look for used a EQ5 or bigger mount on SGL.
Look for a used MAK 127 or similar on SGL.

If a scope + wrong mount package comes up, ask the seller about splitting.
Alternatively buy the lot and then sell the unwanted mount separately.
Or keep the unwanted mount for your 3rd scope🙂

[IB20]

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/offers/offer_sky-watcher-skymax-127-az-gti_380061.html just saying…

[Mandy D]

Just to throw yet another option into the mix, I use my 200P on a Skytee 2 mount on the standard 1.75" tripod and find it works quite well for lunar, solar and planetary. I think you can now buy the Skytee 2 and tripod as a package for £399.

Edit: You will need to buy tube rings and a vixen dovetail, too. If you fit the rings in the right position and orient the dovetail so that the focuser is rotated down 45° from it's original position you can still fit the scope on the Dobsonian mount if you ever wish to. I use mine as a convenient stand for storing the OTA. I recommend upgrading the saddles that are supplied with the mount, too.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Mandy D

[lawsio]

I can almost feel the collective disappointment from you all as I ask this question but I'll float it anyway.

The Celestron Astromaster 127 Mak is currently £300 with £200 off in the camera shop that shall not be named. Is this a worthy alternative to the SkyMax or should I pretend I've not seen it?

Current dilemma with the SkyMax is whether to get it with the EQ3 mount or the AZ GTI. Or neither. Puzzling.  

[Jules Tohpipi]

On 13/08/2023 at 23:02, lawsio said:

Thanks for this. I used to have a 114mm GOTO and it drove me mad, could never get it calibrated properly and it just showed me all sorts of random nonsense! Gather the technology has moved on since I had one 10 years ago and theyre a bit simpler to use now but I'd probably start on a normal EQ for now. 

 

 

 

A big plus point of the AZ-GTi are its ‘Freedom Find’ and ‘Point and Track’ features.

In overview, Freedom Find allows you to push your telescope in the traditional manual way to find your object e.g. Jupiter. Once manually centred in your eyepiece, then quickly tighten the two thumb screws (clutches) and hit ‘Point and Track’ in the phone app. Now the mount is auto tracking Jupiter. It avoids any requirement to perform an alignment set-up or rely on a GOTO command. Repeat the above if hopping to another object. 

The above works in Alt-az mode so no need to do a polar align even. Really helps speed up and simplify the auto tracking process.

Of course, it can be used as a full GOTO mount also - which will require alignment set-up.  
 

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Jules Tohpipi

[lawsio]

Ahh that's useful to know, thanks.

Is it stable enough? Looks nowhere near as substantial as the EQ3?

[lawsio]

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/telescopes-in-stock/sky-watcher-skymax-127-az-go2-wifi-maksutov-cassegrain-telescope.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw5_GmBhBIEiwA5QSMxNLaJaSspXTEKNYyH_Zm-QpHrSVK5qMoebPdR5BtxRaBULuD4TN-MRoCL3wQAvD_BwE

Side note - the one review on that is one of the best online reviews I've ever read 🤣

[bosun21]

37 minutes ago, lawsio said:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/telescopes-in-stock/sky-watcher-skymax-127-az-go2-wifi-maksutov-cassegrain-telescope.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw5_GmBhBIEiwA5QSMxNLaJaSspXTEKNYyH_Zm-QpHrSVK5qMoebPdR5BtxRaBULuD4TN-MRoCL3wQAvD_BwE

Side note - the one review on that is one of the best online reviews I've ever read 🤣

In that review the writer obviously had no clue what he was doing. It's a great little scope.

[Jules Tohpipi]

4 hours ago, lawsio said:

Ahh that's useful to know, thanks.

Is it stable enough? Looks nowhere near as substantial as the EQ3?

For visual, once it’s focussed and tracking, then I’ve found it to be stable. Stable enough even for decent EAA in alt-az mode doing short-exposure live stacks. The AZ-GTi has a large community following. See its enormous thread in the Mounts section here. 

However, personally, I’ve found the bundled tripod not ideal for when trying to fine focus the mak. The focusing action requires more energy input on maks than other scope types and it can take a few seconds for the bundled tripod to settle down after turning the focuser. Other people seem less perturbed by this than me. Some get astonishing images with this apparatus that I could only dream of. I yielded and bought the Sky-Watcher stainless steel tripod (3/8” version) which makes things rock solid with the AZ-GTi. When I’m feeling lazy, I use the lighter bundled tripod and a bahtinov mask to nail focus which eases the pain somewhat. 

Oh dear, that poor person in the review! As you’ll know from your own previous experience, some basic knowledge and input/effort is required 😂

FYI, that particular mount reviewed does not have the Freedom Find feature (all pointing must be done with the cursor buttons in the phone app). Plus the app communicates your location co-ordinates automatically to the AZ-GTi. 
 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Jules Tohpipi

[lawsio]

9 hours ago, Jules Tohpipi said:

For visual, once it’s focussed and tracking, then I’ve found it to be stable. Stable enough even for decent EAA in alt-az mode doing short-exposure live stacks. The AZ-GTi has a large community following. See its enormous thread in the Mounts section here. 

However, personally, I’ve found the bundled tripod not ideal for when trying to fine focus the mak. The focusing action requires more energy input on maks than other scope types and it can take a few seconds for the bundled tripod to settle down after turning the focuser. Other people seem less perturbed by this than me. Some get astonishing images with this apparatus that I could only dream of. I yielded and bought the Sky-Watcher stainless steel tripod (3/8” version) which makes things rock solid with the AZ-GTi. When I’m feeling lazy, I use the lighter bundled tripod and a bahtinov mask to nail focus which eases the pain somewhat. 

Oh dear, that poor person in the review! As you’ll know from your own previous experience, some basic knowledge and input/effort is required 😂

FYI, that particular mount reviewed does not have the Freedom Find feature (all pointing must be done with the cursor buttons in the phone app). Plus the app communicates your location co-ordinates automatically to the AZ-GTi. 
 

Thanks Jules. It's looking like this could be the way to go. 

Imaging isn't something that currently on the agenda, but if I did want to start messing with EAA (For Solar System stuff, probably) would the SkyMax127 / AZGTI combo be future proofed for this?

 

 

[lawsio]

9 hours ago, bosun21 said:

In that review the writer obviously had no clue what he was doing. It's a great little scope.

The "I have to manually point the scope at say Mars, I have no idea where Mars is in the sky!" part was my personal highlight!

[Jules Tohpipi]

13 hours ago, lawsio said:

Imaging isn't something that currently on the agenda, but if I did want to start messing with EAA (For Solar System stuff, probably) would the SkyMax127 / AZGTI combo be future proofed for this?

 

 

Yes absolutely. And there's different levels you can start/go up the EAA or full AP ladder. Of which I'm currently on the very bottom rung (having been pure visual for decades until this year).

I'll keep this brief and in general overview.

Bottom rung is using the AZ-GTi as supplied in alt-az mode. I remove the eyepiece from the diagonal and put my camera in same diagonal (ZWO ASI585MC). USB cable from the camera to a laptop. Use either the supplied ZWO software or third-party SharpCap software to either 'Live View' the camera or 'Live Stack' the images there and then in real time on the screen to observe planets, DSOs (at a stretch with the mak) etc. All very easy and rewarding with a relatively simple learning curve. This relies on short exposure times - approx 10 seconds each and when live-stacking the software auto-corrects for any field rotation of alt-az mode. I see more detail and brightness in DSOs than I ever saw in my 10" dob with this technique (for EAA I use a cheap 4" refractor for DSOs). 

Middle rung: add counter weight and counter weight bar and eq wedge to AZ-GTi. Then run mount in eq mode. Obviously permits longer exposure photography, be that for EAA or a stab at serious astrophotography

Top rung: as above but include guiding and integrate plate-solving and a host of other extra expert stuff (which I don't fully understand) be that with a computer using SharpCap or a dedicated astro box like the ASIair range. The imaging results of which - from other forum members - I would not have believed possible at amateur level even just 10 years ago.

 

By the way, I'm not necessarily trying to dissuade you from going the fully manual route with an EQ3 or 5 or the like. I enjoyed that kind of thing with dobs for years. But rather the AZ-GTi is a serious alternative to be putting on the shortlist if you want quick/light/non-bulky combined with reasonable price, tracking and GOTO, and upgradeable to EQ. If you see what I mean.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Jules Tohpipi

[lawsio]

41 minutes ago, Jules Tohpipi said:

Yes absolutely. And there's different levels you can start/go up the EAA or full AP ladder. Of which I'm currently on the very bottom rung (having been pure visual for decades until this year).

I'll keep this brief and in general overview.

Bottom rung is using the AZ-GTi as supplied in alt-az mode. I remove the eyepiece from the diagonal and put my camera in same diagonal (ZWO ASI585MC). USB cable from the camera to a laptop. Use either the supplied ZWO software or third-party SharpCap software to either 'Live View' the camera or 'Live Stack' the images there and then in real time on the screen to observe planets, DSOs (at a stretch with the mak) etc. All very easy and rewarding with a relatively simple learning curve. This relies on short exposure times - approx 10 seconds each and when live-stacking the software auto-corrects for any field rotation of alt-az mode. I see more detail and brightness in DSOs than I ever saw in my 10" dob with this technique (I use a cheap 4" refractor for DSOs). 

Middle rung: add counter weight and counter weight bar and eq wedge to AZ-GTi. Then run mount in eq mode. Obviously permits longer exposure photography, be that for EAA or a stab at serious astrophotography

Top rung: as above but include guiding and integrate plate-solving and a host of other extra expert stuff (which I don't fully understand) be that with a computer using SharpCap or a dedicated astro box like the ASIair range. The imaging results of which - from other forum members - I would not have believed possible at amateur level even just 10 years ago.

 

By the way, I'm not necessarily trying to dissuade you from going the fully manual route with an EQ3 or 5 or the like. I enjoyed that kind of thing with dobs for years. But rather the AZ-GTi is a serious alternative to be putting on the shortlist if you want quick/light/non-bulky combined with reasonable price, tracking and GOTO, and upgradeable to EQ. If you see what I mean.

 

 

That's really helpful, thanks. 

I used to have a SynScan GoTo with my 114 Skyhawk and I never really bonded with it, spent far too long messing around trying to drive it from Stellarium (Ended up in a mood not dissimilar to that reviewer!) and got fed up with it and went back to a manual EQ mount until I switched to the bigger Dob. That was over 10 years ago though and the tech seems to be much better and simpler to use these days.

I'm going off my earlier idea of buying a massive manual EQ mount to stick the 200 Newt on as it seems largely pointless so maybe something like this is the better option. I guess if I did want a go at imaging some fuzzies later in the day I could get a 5" newt or a refractor as you say to mount to it instead. 

Does the GTI need a special adaptor to switch from AZ to EQ? I've read this was a firmware update but also seen pics in the owners forum of a totally different looking setup. Is the adaptor included or an extra?